Over 9000 Public Sector workers earn more than the Prime Minister!!!!

That is very pedantic Ernie

Why thank you 8)

so did zulu ever answer the question ” why do you need to give huge incentives to private sector senior mangers to recruit the best but not in the public sector”

I couldn’t see an answer Usually woffling on about irelevancies but no answer to this.

We are not talking about ITU nurses – we are talking about the senior management that earn more than the PM

TJ, did you answer the question asked of you?

If you had, then you would see the answer to your own…

TJ – simple question

If I offered you two jobs, both identical, both paying the same –

one had high risk and low security( ie. that if you did not reduce cost by 10% you would be sacked, there was a risk that the company could go under, and a chance that the shareholders could dismiss you at any point)

while the other was a long term guaranteed post, whereby you could only be dismissed for gross negligence (eg a civil service post) with no defined performance criteria and a guaranteed final salary pension backed by the state.

Which would you accept?

THAT is why private sector posts pay more

Now TJ – if the wages in the private sector are so much higher – why don’t you work there?

private sector managers carry failure with them – if they fail, they get sacked, possibly prosecuted

you mean like this?

and more often than not they’ll never get employed in the same field again,

really?

Ok, this is only one example, but it is the example of the man who led a company to the highest corporate losses in UK history, and as such could be described as the most incompetent business leader ever, far outshining any examples of incompetence in the public sector. And in this fear of failure private sector of yours he’s forced to struggle by on a pension several times higher than the most highly paid public servant. If that was the kind of threat I had hanging over my head, my attitude to work might be somewhat different.
Some your posts have been pretty funny so far zulu – but I’m really looking forward to your explanantion of how this some indication of the high price of failure in the private sector.
Not holding my breath though

PMSL

Fault of the free market? private sectors fault was it?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/revealed-salmond-s-support-for-goodwin-over-disastrous-rbs-deal-1.1046662

Alex Salmond personally offered Sir Fred Goodwin the support of the Scottish Government for the disastrous takeover that almost ruined the Royal Bank of Scotland.

A previously secret letter, released to the Sunday Herald after an 18-month Freedom of Information battle, shows the First Minister fully endorsed Goodwin in his reckless bid for the Dutch bank ABN Amro in 2007.

He offered the then RBS chief executive “any assistance my office can provide”, and said it would be in Scotland’s best interests for RBS to succeed with the takeover attempt.

Salmond later described the deal, which proved a catastrophe for RBS and came to symbolise Goodwin’s mismanagement, as a “huge mistake”.

Goodwin sent a handwritten reply, but did not take up the offer of assistance

Perhaps if they had taken the assistance they could place the blame elsewhwere? After all if I offer to help you buy a bike and you refuse would it be my fault if the wheel fell off?

EDIT : TNF I think you have answered the question repeatedly. You seem to think that we have greater job security in the public sector than in the private sector. I am sure the next four years will demonstrate that fact. Is it not gideons great plan to reduce our number and let the private enterprise step into the wake and employ us all. Cant wait for the extra money I will get when this happens.

So no answer from Zulu then.

Its about why the huge incentives are needed to attarct the best into senior management roles in the private sector but not in the public sector.

Job security? are you seriously saying that ( not that its true anyway) that you need to offer someone huge money plus stock options to entice a high quality manager into the private sector but you can get people of the same calibre for a lot less in the public sector because the job is more secure? Bullshine.

As I’ve said TJ – if the wages in the private sector are so much higher – why don’t you work there?

😉

Salmond later described the deal, which proved a catastrophe for RBS and came to symbolise Goodwin’s mismanagement, as a “huge mistake”.

Ahhh, wait, I see because a politician tried to lend some support after the event, it’s all the public sector’s fault was it? really, is that what you’re claiming? And how’s your career as a laughing stock coming along? Shaping nicely by the look of things

I am not a senior manager.

come on Zulu – I am sure there is a simple explanation that makes sense

Huge cash incentives are not need to attract quality senior managers in the public sector because of (mythical) job security? That won’t wash

I am sure there is a simple made up and completely hilarious explanation that makes no sense

Fixed it for you

Dont try and move your own goalposts and restrict it to “senior managers” TJ – you originally stated:

Oh – and the NHS worker that earn that much -many of them will be doctors – medical consultants can earn that much. Basic salary plus merit bonuses. Dunno if it includes GPs – they earn around that much but have to pay for the salaries of other staff and to buy their premises out of their salaries

So TJ – come on. why don’t you work there?

Zulku – actually I do work in the private sector as well as the public sector.

You still have not answered the question. I have not moved the goalposts. The question always was if huge salaries and bonuses can be reconciled in the private sector by needing to pay highly to attract the best in the context of earning more than the PM then why not in the public sector – thats the question you have been dancing around but not answering.

Edit – and from what I saw of the original article it does include GPs and their gross income.

Dave and Clegg have only been in the job for about an hour and a half, they’re still on probation surely? Once they’ve got a few years building up some experience, then maybe they may get payed more?

Oh and has anybody mentioned all the fringe benfits you get as PM, making a bloody fortune on the after dinner circuit, sitting on boards of companies etc.

Cos that’s their private sector income and is paid commensurate to their worth.

So TJ – come on. why don’t you work there?

yeah, quite right TJ, why don’t you change your job just to fit in with someone else’s pathetically narrowminded and unrealistic world view?
And seen as zulu 11 isn’t going to answer the question, anyone else care to enlighten me as to how the threat of being able to resign with a £700k pension after running up the biggest losses in uk corporate history is an indicator of why private sector manangement should live in fear of failure? Fk me, you’d think they’d be more scared of succeeding, maybe that’s why the banking system is in the mess it’s in. Everyone is trying to fail on that scale to get the same kind of punishment.

The high earners at the top of the private sector ARE frequently rewarded for failure. It’s like an exclusive club – insulting to hard working people! In this case, as a customer, you do get a degree of choice as to whether you want to continue to fund their businesses.

However, the vast majority in the private sector are perpertually under a lot of pressure to deliver. Failure to perform is a great concern and job insecurity is much more of an issue than for those in the public sector (perhaps until now).

People in the private sector (whatever they earn), aren’t the issue here because their organisations are not entirely funded by taxes.

This thread is all about individuals drawing huge salaries from the public purse (your pocket) – non-profit public services.

The situation should have never arisen, but we can thank Gordon Brown and the Labour party for this mess. NOBODY ELSE!

Come on then – lets talk about public sector employees being forced to fall on their swords for horrific faliures to carry out their job properly…

How About the procurement of eight HC3 chinooks for the RAF! Nearly half a billion pounds over budget!

“…the most incompetent procurement of all time…might as well have bought eight turkeys.”

“a gold-standard procurement cock-up”

Show me the public sector employees who have lost their jobs over that one – then tell me that there’s no additional job security in the public sector – do you think for one second that the people responsible would have kept their jobs in the private sector.

Nearly half a billion pounds over budget!

1/56th that of the RBS failure – who was sacked over that? Oh wait no, someone got a £700k a year pension – why was that? sorry, I seem to have missed your explanantion of this.

do you think for one second that the people responsible would have kept their jobs in the private sector.

<ahem>£700k a year pension – more than any public sector employee’s wages, and not actally sacked.

The situation should have never arisen, but we can thank Gordon Brown and the Labour party for this mess. NOBODY ELSE!

yes because as we all know there was no public sector until Gordon Brown came to power – local councils were privately owned, as were the police, fire brigade, bbc, civil service and teaching was an entirely voluntary occupation carried out by nice old dears in sensible shoes.

In this case, as a customer, you do get a degree of choice as to whether you want to continue to fund their businesses.

as a taxpayer, no i don’t. neither is it my decision or choice to be dealing with the financial crisis that has arisen out of the sheer greed and incomptence of the banks.

tell me do rooms get darker when you enter them because you strike me as someone dense enough to attract light

£700k pension? Didn’t Gordon Brown lift the cap on pensions which enabled this to happen? If you look into it, I think you’ll be surprized about how unfair he and his party have been towards the normal working class people of this country!

tell me do rooms get darker when you enter them because you strike me as someone dense enough to attract light

Quality, absolute quality. Possibly the finest insult I’ve seen…

Huge swathes of the country have suffered economic hardship over a long period. Typically the old manufacturing bases, legacy industries, the old “engine” of the British economy. Over several decades, those places have gradulally become too dependant on the public sector as the principal employer. Too many people are dependant on benefits in these areas too. The local economy is broken!

It’s like a life support system keeping a brain dead body’s heart beating, but it IS dead.

What these places need is commercial stimulation – something the coalition government are addressing to a small degree. Much more needs to be done however.

The solution is enterprise, not increased dependency on an already overburdened tax system. These areas are Labour strongholds – people there have been brainwashed into thinking they are victims who need to be supported. If there was a sea change in attitute in these communities – the majority embracing an enterprise culture, there would be a huge turn around within 20 years.

Don’t hold you breath though, when you are one step away from state dependency and there are no decent jobs, the temptation of Labour’s cash splurges takes away any incentive an individual might have to build a better life. You could also be sure your peers and friends would become resentful if they thought you were bettering yourself. Proper socialisn! A vicious downward spiral of underachievment and state dependency!

When will people realise how destructive a Labour administration is? How their politics ruin the country’s prosperity, their ideals kill enterprise. How it breeds inequality. We’ll end up like a third world country with them in the driving seat. Good job they aren’t in power now!

the majority embracing an enterprise culture, there would be a huge turn around within 20 years.

yes, that’s all these people need, a change in attitude….

Don’t hold you breath though, when you are one step away from state dependency and there are no decent jobs, the temptation of Labour’s cash splurges takes away there isn’t any incentive an individual might have to build a better life.

Fixed, and it didn’t cost the taxpayer a penny.

£700k pension? Didn’t Gordon Brown lift the cap on pensions which enabled this to happen?

Good idea, why bother answering the question, after all it’s not like you have an answer is it?

What these places need is commercial stimulation

You mean subsidies don’t you?..is that not sacrilege? aren’t markets perfect? Nothing to stop the capitalists moving in and making a killing there right now is there. I know it appears that the market has decided to not give a sh1t and leave them to rot as we can make things cheaper in China. Like you I also blame the government for this fact
EDIT 🙄 just to be certain you pick up on it

You mean subsidies don’t you?..is that not sacrilege?

see, typical socialist, only possible answer is subsidies! tax and spend, always the same

How about lower taxes – the best form of commercial stimulation you’ll ever see!

So scrapping all taxes altogether and providing no services would give the ultimate stimulation?

Apparently who knew it was so simple
See typical right wing zealot only way is to give cash breaks to the rich to set up factories in deprived areas so they can make more profit. That is all the market/enterprising types actually care about profit which is my point , glad you agree.

give cash breaks to the rich to set up factories

See, who said that? you’re still stuck in your socialist mindset!

I said lower taxes

for all!

less government, less control, less intervention, less tax.

who built the railways? was it the government?
who built the canals? was it the government?
who built the mills and factories? was it the government?
who built the copper and coal mines? was it the government?

see, typical socialist,

see typical right wing zealot, ask a question that doesn’t fit with their blinkered view and don’t expect an answer. Fingers in the ears lalalala i’m not listening. lala11 from lalaland
😆

who caused the curent recesion? was it the government?

who built the railways? was it the government?

What a stupid example. In almost every other european country, railways were built to central government plans. They all have far better organised networks, which are cheaper to run and to travel on, faster, and more likely to go by sensible routes to where you want to go.

There is a good book about why the uk rail system is so screwed, I think it is called eleven minutes late. Interesting reading, and a great example of why purely market led building of railways is a terrible idea.

Joe

Mine owners were great examples when the pits were opened and privately run:

– insisting the ponies were rescued before the men following flood and collapse in the main tunnel.

– not allowing rescuers through their mine to rescue workers from an adjoining mine resulting in all trapped miners dieing.

-throwing surviving families wholesale out of their pit owned homes after their husbands were killed.

I’m sure the mill and factory owners were equally nice to their workforces.

These are the sorts of things history shows us happen when profit and greed dictate actions. It still happens today in many countries around the world with little government regulation/control and labour protection.

Those who invest in such countries would happily see the same thing accross the UK if there was a profit incentive.

less government, less control, less intervention, less tax.

It has failed. Many times. I wouldn’t expect you among others to admit that.

give cash breaks to the rich to set up factories

See, who said that? you’re still stuck in your socialist mindset!

I said lower taxes

for all!

Sorry so the poor people on benefits will set up the factories in your low tax regume because the banks will lend them the money as they are low risk and have no capital to secure against said loan…sorry my mistake that approach by banks seems to have worked well in the last few years iirc. You seem rather keen to thelp the poor sure you are not getting the socialist itch? Twang from your conscisnce? moral awakening?Epiphany?
I agree that private money bulit all you mention but at [literally] what cost to human lives as the market decided that ponies or the machines continuing to work in the mills was of greater value than the lives of the workers there including children. Do you not notice this slight failure in your market model ? You surely wont argue it was safer then for workers or they enjoyed better conditions? Sure the owners made more money [though the workers received subsistence wages]that way but some of us are a little uncomfortable with the conditions the unregulated market delivers. I did not mention slavery, arms trade, cigareetes, asbestos and a host of other things industries have done in pursuit of profit above the health of its employees and fellow citizens. It is only perfect if your only goal is maximum profit /equilibrium at ANY cost.

less government, less control, less intervention, less tax.

What, like Dubai, where less government, control and intervention results in the near-slavery for hundreds of thousands of workers? Yeah, great. A state effectively run by capitalist corporations for their own interests. Fantastic.

See, every part of any argument you ever make can be ripped to pieces, Labrat.

who built the railways? was it the government?
who built the canals? was it the government?
who built the mills and factories? was it the government?
who built the copper and coal mines? was it the government?

Who died building the railways, canals, mills, factories and mines? Who worked in virtual slavery in said railways, mills, factories and mines? Who benefitted from the wealth generated?

Nothing wrong with private enterprise funding development; quite a lot wrong with letting private enterprise exploit workers though. Which tends to happen, if private enterprise is allowed too much control. Benevolent and altruistic employers are incredibly rare.

Oh, and who ran the railways and canals when private enterprise lost interest/found them unprofitable? Who had to deal with the poor when the mills, factories and mines closed? Clue: It wasn’t those who profited from them…

Who worked in virtual slavery in said railways, mills, factories and mines?

So, we’re not in bondage now Fed?, with each child born into £17,000 of debt?

Who benefitted from the wealth generated?

You tell me – was it the residents of Saltaire? or perhaps the residents of Port Sunlight? maybe Bournville?

I’d be willing to bet you’ve never even ‘king heard of them Ernie! Give you a clue – they were not built by the government…

I’ve been to Saltaire, and have ancestors who worked at both Port Sunlight and Bournville. How about that one then, eh?

Lever’s stated aims were “to socialise and Christianise business relations and get back to that close family brotherhood that existed in the good old days of hand labour.” He claimed that Port Sunlight was an exercise in profit sharing, but rather than share profits directly, he invested them in the village. He said, “It would not do you much good if you send it down your throats in the form of bottles of whisky, bags of sweets, or fat geese at Christmas. On the other hand, if you leave the money with me, I shall use it to provide for you everything that makes life pleasant – nice houses, comfortable homes, and healthy recreation.”

Hmm, sounds a bit Socialist to me! I’m surprised you used that as an example! 😆

Ha ha! You provide 3 examples that are the exception to the norm. And they provided benefits only to their workers and families, not to society as a whole. So, not for purely altruistic reasons then.

Tis a very large, and very deep hole you’re digging. Let’s hope your employer can provide you with healthcare, housing and adequate nourishment, eh?

You’re entertaining, Labby, I’ll give you that. You provide great sport. 😉

Fantastic Fred.

Look at that – examples of free market economics where employers choose to reward their employees with better than market conditions, quality housing, al the perks, in the belief that the workers would be happier and more productive, and guess what, hugely successful profit making businesses! Remarkable, incentive and reward.

So, by your own admission free market economics isn’t all about keeping the workers in poverty, is it Fred?