Osbourne says no to currency union.

molgrips – Member
If you like, but it’s not my point at all.

I thought your point was to argue that Westminster can be changed. I’ve said convince me and I’ll give consideration to changing my vote. In that you’ve failed miserably.

I suspect I’ll never convince you, because you’re making an emotional deicision.

Westminster can be changed because it is never constant. It will always change. It always has done. Likewise Holyrood will change – even if you start off with socialist utopia, it won’t always be so.

I understand that. Its my biggest worry about it. The Tory party are the only party with any ideas. Labour get in and only act as a place holder(as they have zero ideas of their own bar staying slight left of the Tories). Then the Tories get in change things a little more.

Its a cycle i dont see changing. There is only one ideological direction.

“Power corrupts….”

I agree with the ‘Westminster’ jibes, although I’m perhaps less critical and hold my nose a bit more during times of a government of the hue I prefer, but I don’t see any reason that it will be different in Scotland, and if it is, or can be, I don’t see why it can’t be in ‘Westminster’.
I don’t think that there is that much difference in the ideals of the the people who just happen to live on either side of a line on a map – there is the same mix of different outlooks, and opinions on how they should be achieved.

‘Westminster’ doesn’t have a monopoly on the wrong kind of people, they will gravitate to wherever there is an opening or opportunity.

I don’t understand these things, but just read this:
Today’s Guardian

It can be different in Scotland due to much smaller government that is closer to the people, therefore more likely to be reactive. And there is also PR in scotland, so more representative IMO.

just one thing, if scotland had been independent already, we would have been at war in Syria now.
The union is better together in my view, unless you would rather we were at war.

Who is “we” in this context? I’m struggling to see why Scotland would be at war in Syria.

We the rest of the union.

however my point is that the scottish mps do influence policy in Westminster, and you are not being ignored.
Or being ruled over without a voice.

I was wondering when either side’s refusal to publicly budge on the CU was going to have an effect on the money markets.

I suspect the money markets are rather cleverer than the people Sir BS is trying to bamboozle with his refusal to publicly budge.

It’s that the UK govt is seen as being dominated by the interests of what is known as the Establishment, with the result that it doesn’t matter what govt gets voted in, we get the same policies.

The trouble is I’m not seeing iS being any different to that (FWIW I agree with your take on Westminster – well except that I’d replace “the Establishment” with “big business” – and am far from a fan).

The Tory party are the only party with any ideas.

For now. You talk as if the Labour Party have never had ideas in the past. This is obviously rubbish.

Its a cycle i dont see changing.

Why do you say that? Based on what evidence?

I don’t think that there is that much difference in the ideals of the the people who just happen to live on either side of a line on a map

The difference lies with the money. The money in the SE of England is what makes it the Tory heartland, and the working class background of much of Scotland makes it Labour. If Scotland gets really rich, the money will gravitate to the Central Belt and it’ll end up Tory.

Anyone mentioned Animal Farm on this thread yet?

It can be different in Scotland due to much smaller government that is closer to the people, therefore more likely to be reactive.

I don’t buy the “smaller/closer” == “better” argument.

Lots of local councils appear to show the exact opposite for example (e.g. see today’s news). I’m sure there are others.

Another one from today’s Guardian

I might be changing the vote I don’t have 😀

I might be changing the vote I don’t have

I wouldn’t. I don’t think Monbiot really understands the world very well.

Molgrips. I was the one that asked you to change my mind. I didn’t ask for a serious of questions on my views! 😆

But for clarities sake.

I don’t think labour has always been devoid of ideas, just in my adult life.

The current incumbents and their recent follow the Tories spending cuts/budget rings true of what happened in 97.

Maybe, maybe not we could speculate all night on that I believe different.

Its a cycle i dont see changing. There is only one ideological direction.

What’s that look after number one?
Salmond made the claim in the tv debate that cancer operations are being cancelled at Gateshead hospital. He does not care what happens at Gateshead, and neither do most Yes voters.

One reason they want a Scottish Broadcasting Service is so that news like this does not need to enter their lives.

I am still waiting to hear as someone that would like to see a UK that does more to help some of it’s poorest, how does independence help?

I might be changing the vote I don’t have

Phew, having checked I find my usual policy on Monbiots opinion means I don’t need to

Salmond made the claim in the tv debate that cancer operations are being cancelled at Gateshead hospital. He does not care what happens at Gateshead

Pretty much made up

Sir Leonard Fenwick, the chief executive of the North East NHS foundation, was reported as saying: “This is the biggest lot of crap I have ever heard. It is just codswallop.

Nothing like saying it how it is 🙂

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/doctor-campaigning-scottish-independence-accused-7672586

Independence helps because people in Scotland will get the govt they vote for and will therefore become less cynical and apathetic about politics. If people engage more with politics politics itself will come to be a more accurate reflection of the needs and wants of the society it is supposed to serve. Politics itself has to change fundamentally new parties are needed because the old ones are no use. Independence is just the first step on a long journey

I am still waiting to hear as someone that would like to see a UK that does more to help some of it’s poorest, how does independence help?

as part of the UK I don’t think you can, hence my yes vote. As an independent Scotland, I do agree that grates, I’m not a nationalist so I understand your views. I’m not willing to piss about waiting for the UK to do anything about it.

I could actually be swayed with arguments of a federal uk, but that would need to work across the UK for it to be successful. Something that isn’t going to happen.

Seosamh – you have interesting perspectives but as others have said local (council) politics totally falsifies the idea that smaller is necessarily better. You are in for a massive let down if yes succeeds.

If people engage more with politics politics itself will come to be a more accurate reflection of the needs and wants of the society it is supposed to serve.

We’re back to the death penalty argument

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-agree-or-disagree-that-sometimes-the-death-penalty-is-the-most-appropria#line

The job of [the social construct we refer to as] society is not to reflect the democratic wants of the electorate, just because people support it doesn’t make it right!

I could have sworn we had a coalition government! Are the LDs given the same level of respect as the welsh in all this ie, none?

teamhurtmore – Member
Seosamh – you have interesting perspectives but as others have said local (council) politics totally falsifies the idea that smaller is necessarily better. You are in for a massive let down if yes succeeds.

maybe, but I think the Scottish parliament does have a track record, that in my opinion is more socially aware then Westminster. So its not like we are starting from nothing.

I will concede that there may even be SNP policies of over protectionism on certain issues, you know the ones I’m meaning. As I’ve said I see right the the SNP, but that’s a double edged sword for them, they have normalised these things in Scotland, and, more imporartantly, the concept of I dunno, universalism, for want of a better word.(no idea if that has a different meaning in political circles).

whimbrel – Member
…’Westminster’ doesn’t have a monopoly on the wrong kind of people, they will gravitate to wherever there is an opening or opportunity.

Yes, but our wrong people have to face re-election. They are not there for life.

Guido thinks that Gordon has won it for the Yes campaign

See, all this “we’ll be better when we’re ruled by our own” thing doesn’t wash with me. I (along with many others) have got first-hand experience of what happens when you elect local people to represent you. Have a google for corruption at Edinburgh Council. It’s rife and, at times, downright criminal. What’s worse is the contempt with which the people of Edinburgh are viewed by their councillors. There is a concerted effort from within to ignore the issues under the guise of numerous and sickeningly expensive resolutions processes, and a refusal from the Scottish Parliament to allow a public enquiry for fear of the embarrassment it will cause to all involved and their parties.

You think things will be rosy once the Westminster Old Boys network no longer has a say? Well there’s an Old Boys network at Holyrood and beyond, and they are as corrupt and self-serving as any.

TFO – you know the beautiful thing about Edinburgh CC – you can vote them out if enough people where you live agree with you.

You don’t feel that’s missing the point somewhat?

No – not really. People don’t agree with you then they get to stay in power. That’s how democracy works.

you can vote them out if enough people where you live agree with you.

I’m sure the people of Rotherham are over the moon at that revelation about local democracy!

Enlighten me about what happened in Rotherham.

Love the DO spouting about optimum currency area on news now. Exactly, and what is the feature of this – you coordinate policy you do not not separate it.

The smug bllx is extraordinary and the so-called biased BBC report it without comment. Extraordinary

His willingness to deceive is breathtaking

His willingness to deceive is breathtaking

but Scotland will be the new Luxemburg and the richest country in the world………. he must have plans to be a tax haven as well as a oil exporter and living of rUK green energy subsidies

apparently this former EU commissioner was wrong as well

What I don’t get as a non-economist is why, when there are lots of small countries doing fine by themselves, Scotland would be any different.

Ben – there is no doubt that Scotland could go it alone as an independent state. the question is whether it should go it alone. you know this perfectly well.

 living of rUK green energy subsidies

Yes Scotland would have us believe that Scotlands renewables sector is of our own making.

Might it be possible that the future of this sector will be dependant on the willingness of a foreign country to continue paying for it?

ninfan – Member
I’m sure the people of Rotherham are over the moon at that revelation about local democracy!

Maybe they should now agitate to get their democracy replaced by rule by a wise and enlightened aristocrat?

Ben – there is no doubt that Scotland could go it alone as an independent state. the question is whether it should go it alone. you know this perfectly well.

So what’s the point of the economic arguments then?

Whether we should go it alone isn’t about money. It’s about democracy, it’s about getting rid of Trident, it’s about trying to create a fairer society.

It’s after 11pm and people are running – running! – to register to vote. In our normally apathetic democracy with steadily reducing voter turnouts, that’s absolutely astounding and wonderful.

Douglas Alexander’s relaxed authoritive style is destroying Nicola Sturgeon.

Facts v bollox!