There is no doubt in my mind that Salmond will suffer from the Churchill effect. “Aye ta for winning the war,now see ya!” The problem that will rumble on in the event of a no vote is that despite any claims of good bridge playing from them,the amount of anti-Westminster sentiment that the no campaign are building is significant. And that is among the home owning teachers I work with. I have asked the English pro union supporters on this thread to share with me on several occasions the positives that retaining the union offers,hell in a perfect world they would be examples used by the no campaign..Still waiting…Westminster have created an atmosphere in this campaign that will be a very,very long time fading.
For the record,I’m not a fan of Alex Salmond,however l feel the likes of thm etc do him a huge disservice by assuming this is just a power trip for him. He has devoted his life to the nationalist cause and this is his overriding focus.

Konabunny

“The public are morons”

Sheesh,isn’t it awful when people make up their own mind?

I think places like this are an example of the benefits of union. I have already said that give it 5 or 10 years, forums won’t be Scottish enough for many. Too many topics like riding at Swinley or the Lakes, or politics that won’t affect us. I enjoy hearing the views of a cross section of the UK and others further afield. We will likely see an STW.scot that would allow us to back slap each other about the unequalled quality of riding on offer, or discussions on the merits of the Forfar bridie. Life will change massively, not just the politicians we see on the television, but the papers we read and the programs we watch, websites we will congregate around. Sure, UK based media and views will be available but others have made it clear what the think of the BBC for example, while forgetting it is not bad. I wait with baited breath to see the neutrality of SBC news.

Life in the UK I really find is not that bad, in fact I find it on the whole pretty decent. There is a wealth of differing opinions, however I feel there is more linking us than seperating us. I find the “subjugation”, “we are a doormat” stuff really tiresome.

Politically it has been stated that people will not forget Labour standing side by side with the Tories on currency union. The Lib Dems are already dead as are the Tories. These parties will flounder for a lengthy period following a yes vote. We have only one real choice. I worry about the poor judge of character of many fellow Scots. They vote for independence but will get a wolf in sheeps clothing, with a ready made blame figure if he does not get his way.

If the vote is no, then independence supporters always have the chance to do this again in a few years. The people with the most to worry about post Yes are No voting Scots. I hope that people do not decide to vote yes because we can’t have a currency union. That would be like demanding a piece of your neighbours garden, then setting fire to your house when they refuse. I am not keen to be in that house when it burns.

athgray – Member
…They vote for independence but will get a wolf in sheeps clothing, with a ready made blame figure if he does not get his way…

We keep hearing allegations of this nature. How Salmond is going to be king of Scotland or dictator or suchlike.

I’ve been watching him for a while and haven’t seen any imperial signs.

Is there any evidence for this, or are you simply repeating just another of the Project Fear slurs?

If the vote is no, then independence supporters always have the chance to do this again in a few years.

This is the third referendum on Scotland’s constitutional status in 307 years, isn’t it?

English pro union supporters on this thread

It’d be interesting to see some updated polling on this, purely rUK polling. Divided up into the respective regions (I say regions to include the different regions of England, and North and South Wales for that matter).

I have already said that give it 5 or 10 years, forums won’t be Scottish enough for many

I’m trying to work out if you’re being serious or not.

There are already people from all over the world on this forum – sure it’s UK-based, but that’s the internet for you. And especially in a website about trails and things that won’t move after independence, why on earth would Scottish people want their own website?

Anyhow, I’m off to troll the US framebuilding forums 😉

I’d be interested to see how ‘pro union’ the electorate in the UK actually is – i think many would be surprised. Certainly, of all the people i know & have expressed a viewpoint it is overwhelmingly for Scotland to leave. In fact, i only know two people who are pro union & they are both Scots.

Ben,any good links for US framebuilders? I do likey gazing at rivendells etc.

OT, but does anyone has any good links for oil/gas import export data for the current UK?

And data on what would be the rUK capacity for importing would be, specifically from outside what is currently the UK?

One extra thing, I know the oil card is overplayed. But can anyone tell me what the total oil production of what would be an iScotland (on the most recent figures) as a % of the total consumption (per annum) of the EU.

I seem to remember seeing a figure somewhere between 1.5% and 4%. No idea where, or it’s accuracy.

Ben,any good links for US framebuilders? I do likey gazing at rivendells etc.

For forums, there’s:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/
http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php/229-Framebuilders
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/

Individual framebuilders there’s lots, but I like this guy’s work for a start:

Home

epicyclo, I have already posted evidence to that effect previously.

muddy. I am a pro union member of the UK electorate. Despite how it may appear here, so are a significant number of people living in Scotland.

I notice on several occasions that pro independence comments and literature like to portray the UK as England. It suits their cause to portray it that way.

Recent yes campaign literature asked the question, “What will become of the UK after independence?”
The conclusion was that it would be ok, however only mentioned England throughout, whilst showing a picture of the St George flag.

Are there yes and no heartlands in Scotland?
Or is it just purely down to choice?

From what i have seen, there is a bigger sense of dis-union south of the Border than in Scotland. How much of this is a sense of exasperation with the issue, & what it will mean in the future i don’t know.
I doubt it would result in any serious movement to leave the Union though because – as has been mentioned before – Scotland really doesn’t figure that highly in our day to day thoughts despite the claims of some that we are desperate to hold onto Scotland. Most are indifferent or leaning towards a ‘you know where the door is, close it behind you on the way out’ position.
I feel sorry for pro Union Scots, they appear to be caught between the rhetoric of the Nats & a rising sense of exasperation down South. I think the only way forward is to make a clean break now, stand or fall on your own feet & we shall do likewise.

OT, but does anyone has any good links for oil/gas import export data for the current UK?

Euan Mearns has loads of good stuff on energy on his blog.

http://euanmearns.com/

I feel sorry for pro Union Scots, they appear to be caught between the rhetoric of the Nats & a rising sense of exasperation down South.

I think also quite a few pro-Union Scots* also don’t quite understand that the Union they love perhaps doesn’t love them back. This is (I think) a spoof video but it gets the point across:

https://vidd.me/aF7

*And I would be pro-Union if the Union hadn’t changed. We have a lot of shared history, Scotland used to proudly describe itself as North Britain. What’s happened is not that Scotland is breaking away, it’s that the nature of the Union has changed – the rise of the City and the death by a thousand cuts of the manufacturing base, the increasing move rightwards of all political parties, these things have moved the rest of the UK away from where Scotland was and is.

^ the problem is that it isn’t just Britain that has changed, but the World, which is why there is likely to be a demoralising surprise for the yes campaign should they happen to succeed.

The comments to that video are quite enlightening – not. If those anti-English comments are anything to go by the sooner we dissolve the Union the better.

The comments to that video are quite enlightening – not. If those anti-English comments are anything to go by the sooner we dissolve the Union the better.

You must know that reading the comments on Youtube or any video site is a bad idea? 😉

Isn’t that what AS is relying on?

Those comments were like the Daily Mail cycling section! 😆

Indeed citing You tube comments as a reason for union disillusion – that is what you have suggested all along in these debates anyway iirc – is daft.

Was a lighthearted comment Junky, but my point remains. Scotland leaving the Union will in the long run be the best option for the Union. The continuing uncertainty and unrest that the Nats are determined to commit to in the event of a NO vote will not be conducive to the long term health of the UK. If the vote would put the issue to bed one way or another then that would be one thing, but the Nats aren’t going to let it lie should they lose in September & for that i think it is best for the UK you go as soon as is practical.

Given the near 50/50 divide of the populous on the issue it is unlikely to go away whatever way the vote goes – be it an EU or Scots referendum
We have had referendum on both issue in the 70’s and it has not gone away.

the Nats aren’t going to let it lie should they lose in September

you have seen the Unionists in NI

Its not a nats or a Unionist thing IMHO its just the issue generates strong opinions

Those comments were like the Daily Mail cycling section!

Speaking of the DM, their leader today is interesting…

imnotverygood – Member
^ the problem is that it isn’t just Britain that has changed, but the World, which is why there is likely to be a demoralising surprise for the yes campaign should they happen to succeed.

Aye, we’re too stupid to run our country in a changing world, not like the noble elite running the UK who weren’t caught out by a global financial crisis.

What’s happened is not that Scotland is breaking away, it’s that the nature of the Union has changed – the rise of the City and the death by a thousand cuts of the manufacturing base, the increasing move rightwards of all political parties, these things have moved the rest of the UK away from where Scotland was and is.

Is the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?

Re the ‘rise of the City’ you won’t impact London’s path post independence, but you’ll damage your own. What do you think Edinburgh’s economy is reliant on apart from tourism? All entities in the financial services sector are considering their response to independence in the context of re-domiciling, or de-risking in one way or another. For any insurance company, bank or investment manager the risk of being domiciled in a country that either can’t control its own currency, or is tied to someone else’s, will probably mean exit (or at the very least restricting services to the Scottish market alone).

How will Scotland as an independent nation rebuild its manufacturing base? Reliance on cheap oil, or expensive renewables? Do you think England will continue to buy renewable energy at well above market price from Scotland post independence?

bainbrge – Member
s the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?…

It’s across the political board.

How will Scotland as an independent nation rebuild its manufacturing base

Probably in the same way the regions of England would if they had self determination.

Is the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?

For some it seems to be. Certainly on here anyway.

I reckon a strong centre right will emerge if they vote Yes.

How will Scotland as an independent nation rebuild its manufacturing base?

That is fantasy. It is too far gone to turn it back.
Do any Scots honestly believe they can start building ships again?
Rebuild your car plants? Last time I looked it was an Asda.
Rightly or wrongly the UK cannot turn back the clock and get back the major manufacturing base.

Serious question; how will Scotland (or the regions of England) better rebuild their manufacturing base under independence? How does HMG prevent the manufacturing industry from growing?

Scotland’s old manufacturing base was heavy industry – that’s not coming back. It’s especially unlikely to come back if the lessons from Ineos Grangemouth have been learned by anyone with the capacity to invest. High tech industry maybe? Again not sure how HMG prevents (or indeed hinders in any way) Scotland from having such at present?

I really find it difficult to accept that independence is the solution to any of these issues.

We can’t rebuild heavy industry, no. But that doesn’t mean that the only things the UK can do to make money are banking and call centres. There’s a satellite manufacturer just across the road from me here in Glasgow. Artist spaces are opening up all over. There are many more things the UK can do to make money than speculating.

The problem is at the moment everything is viewed through the prism of how it would affect “the City”.

How does HMG prevent the manufacturing industry from growing?

It sucks all the money to London. Public transport in London gets £2000 per person per year – in the North-east, it’s £2 per person per year. And that’s just one example. Wages get a London weighting – an extra amount paid just because it’s more expensive to live in London. Where does that money come from? And where does it go to? It inflates the London property bubble, for one.

Artist spaces are opening up all over.

It’s hardly mass employment is it?

satellite manufacturer

The UK, including Englandshire, are currently doing quite well in the high tech specialist manufacturing.

The Silicon Fen and the F1/motorsport industry are 2 that spring to mind.

Isn’t specialist manufacture what you do Ben? 🙂 Being in the UK doesn’t seem to have held you back?

Not sure what magic wand will be waved by the SNP after Yes.

Public transport in London gets £2000 per person per year – in the North-east, it’s £2 per person per year

Not this again!

If you are talking about the NE of England, then they have quite a good public transport system around Newcastle and it is even connected to the other principal “city” sunderland. Most of the NE is a pretty empty rural landscape where an extensive public transport system isn’t feasible.

Isn’t specialist manufacture what you do Ben? Being in the UK doesn’t seem to have held you back?

Yup 😉

From a business point of view, I don’t think independence would help at all, and may even cause harm for me because of how much I send south of the border. But I’m thinking more of what kind of country I want my daughter to grow up in.

bainbrge – Member
…I really find it difficult to accept that independence is the solution to any of these issues.

Why should we have to reinstate failed industries? Just provide an environment where new industries can flourish, whatever they may be, and whatever size they may be.

Independence gets us democracy. We can tweak the controls any way we like afterwards.

Just provide an environment where new industries can flourish, whatever they may be

Reduced corporation tax?

Doesn’t sound much like a workers utopia.

Public transport in London gets £2000 per person per year – in the North-east, it’s £2 per person per year

How does the per capita public transport investment balance between, say Edinburgh and Tayside look by way of comparison?

Public transport investment in Edinburgh is a fine example of Holyrood investing resource wisely. 🙂

I just hope they make better decisions when they have independence.

Speaking of the DM, their leader today is interesting…

Haven’t seen it, what was the jist? The online front page had Salmond panicking!