Oops! Someone best phone social services….

Other than the health implications

what health implications?

staple stuff is a lot more efficient than meat.

You can’t grow crops on (certain) hills (easily).

Fill them with sheep, hey presto, tasty roast dinners.

Flat ground is arable = put less animals there, and more crops.

I noticed you didn’t comment on the moral side

My sweeping statement was to cover all the point listed 🙂 . No problem with the moral side. Way easier to defend the production of a McDs hambuger than fish and milk. Gets a bit trickier with crop production but still easy to put a valid argument together. IMO the only way to put any kind of moral case is to pick and choose your facts. I would much rather eat ethically produced meat than non meat products where the ethics are generally ignored, but in reality I eat both as it isn’t a moral issue to me.

Other than the health implications you shouldn’t force your numpty ideas onto kids.

Do you think you may have forced your numpty ideas that they need to eat meat and they will be unhealthy if they do not [ not true as well all know]
All parents force their ideas on to their kids or else you are offering no guidance to them

if a religious kid was coming roung to your house for tea and the parents so wished it, would you say grace?

No but they could as I would respect their choice 😛

Like i would let me kids hang out with religious folk those folk are idiots and their offspring as loons . Imagine forcing your ideas and lifestyle on to your kids that is monstrous and just so wrong.. how can they get away with it is child abuse and my kids would starve if they were religious

I think it shows a total lack of respect to other parents to undermine there values. Ignorance is one thing but to knowingly undermine them is taking the mickey quite frankly.

If it was my kids I would be thinking of the wider implications. If they show no respect for this view I’d be thinking what other values are being ignored. Watching inappropriate films, eating sweets all day etc. I’d seriously be considering not letting you look after them again which just means the kids are ultimately missing out.
Shame to show no respect and be so narrow minded.

Well that’s a whole new view on the matter. 😉 😆

mrmonkfinger – Member
staple stuff is a lot more efficient than meat.
You can’t grow crops on (certain) hills (easily).

Fill them with sheep, hey presto, tasty roast dinners.

Flat ground is arable = put less animals there, and more crops.

Fill them with sheep = deforestation = water run off = flooded Somerset Levels

Therefore meat eating causes floods that also starves the vegetarians of the arable produce that would be grown otherwise.

Sheep are obviously weapons of the carnivores.

Well that’s a whole new view on the matter.

I only read the first couple of pages then got bored! Just so you know where I stand like. Carry on! 😀

Sheep are obviously weapons of the carnivores

But they look so innocent and fluffy. Quite a disguise!

Either way, sheep don’t prevent us from growing some trees on a hill.

Sheep next to a tree, on a hill, yesterday:

11 Pages, chapeau Binners.

bob_summers – Member

Poah, why is it ok for you to force your numpty ideas on your kids but it’s not OK for me to force my numpty ideas on mine?

We’ve already done the health implications thing. You haven’t a leg to stand on.

I don’t force any numpty ideas on my kids. They are however forced to eat healthy food. They get all their vitamins, minerals, protein and fats etc from a balanced diet. If they didn’t get meat I would have to find other sources of vitamins, minerals and fats, calories etc. I don’t believe a vegi (more so vegan) diet is healthy for a growing child and its made worse if the mother is one during pregnancy. I can’t imagine my kids having to eat all the extra bits and bobs they would need in a diet lacking meat (certainly couldn’t afford it either or the extra TP lol ).

edit – this is not to say kids that eat meat are healthy by default.

Sheep next to a tree, on a hill, yesterday:

OK so lets gloss over the fact you were out taking photos of sheep yesterday and lets just discuss whether we think that is a forest or that is not a forest

On balance i will go for not a forest.

JY – Dead right. Common sense prevails.

Oooh erosion – we’re back in business.

Friends of the lake district

upland grazing

redsocks

channelling

traffic volumes

fix the fells

visual amenity/vs biodiversity

working landscape

Couldn’t bear to read all this, and as weird as I find the vegan thing, I’m with Junkyard – his kids, his rules!

mrmonkfinger – Member
Sheep are obviously weapons of the carnivores
But they look so innocent and fluffy. Quite a disguise!

Either way, sheep don’t prevent us from growing some trees on a hill.

Nope, what’s preventing us is EU financial incentive to farmers to strip the hillsides bare. The sheep are just the excuse.
The dredging is a displacement attempt to avoid having to admit a total failure to manage land use.

this is not to say kids that eat meat are healthy by default.

must….resist….

you shouldn’t force your numpty ideas onto kids

Who says they’re numpty? The parents don’t think so.

Except for that bit where Binners said the child said please can we go we will not tell them and we can say we had something else.

That doesn’t mean Binners or the girl were told not to. Chances are the girl was simply afraid of general disapproval rather than specific rule breaking.

(I’ve no doubt some exotic fruit/veg is highly intensive to produce but I’d imagine staple stuff is a lot more efficient than meat.)

Interesting one this. The statistics that veggies love to throw around about meat taking 7 times more energy/food than grain are a bit disingenuous.

1) That’s about beef in the US, where they farm very intensively and the cows generally don’t eat grass. For grass fed beef it’s less, for chicken it’s much less.

2) They are comparing meat with grain, and you can’t swap meat for grain in your diet – you need legumes. These are harder to produce than grain.

3) As above, not all land is suitable for grain and far less is suitable for lentils and beans – do lentils even grow at all in the UK?

4) Animals can convert all sorts of things into meat, milk or eggs – like grass for example, or food waste.

I don’t believe a vegi (more so vegan) diet is healthy for a growing child

I dont believe that what you think counts as a fact – you do know folk have actually researched this dont you?

and its made worse if the mother is one during pregnancy.

What the child in the womb suffers more if the mother is vegan? Evidence please beyond your opinion.

I can’t imagine my kids having to eat all the extra bits and bobs they would need in a diet lacking meat (certainly couldn’t afford it either or the extra TP lol ).

You seem to think vegetables cost more than meat. What do you think we eat? I just eat more pulses and veg than you.

You can be a meat eater and healthy or unhealthy and a vegan and healthy or unhealthy
Diet alone wont tell you as you would need to know what they eat within that diet.

A quick glance at obesity rates should confirm that – perhaps you could do a visual check in Mc Donalds – assuming the healthy specimens have actually got out the car and waddled walked into the “restaurant”

lol at this thread – give a dog a bone i say

veganism is sooooo old school – everybody knows that in the future we’ll all be eating insects 😆

insects important as a food supplement for undernourished children

caterpillar pizza for the girls next weekend then…?

If you’ll stoop as low as eating from McDs you’ll eat anything surely?

On balance i will go for not a forest.

Ever seen a deer forest? 😉

I don’t believe a vegi (more so vegan) diet is healthy for a growing child

Rubbish. Diets can be healthy or not healthy, it doesn’t depend at all on whether there’s meat involved.

If you’ll stoop as low as eating from McDs you’ll eat anything

I draw the line at most salads, tbh.

Well, green leaves generally.

….. And now we’re on to EU agricultural policies? I suppose they had to get dragged into it at some point. 😉

Well, the girls have just knocked on, and she’s still allowed to play with my kids. So it’s safe to assume the dark secret of my unsavoury carnivorous, lentil-eschewing antics has been kept. For now. As has the measured sense of perspective on this thread* I see. Phew!

Anyone as moral-free and lacking in respect for belief systems unquestioningly foisted on their offspring as myself might assume that’s because watching her devour it yesterday, she rather enjoyed the whole (rather none-eventful for most) experience, she sees no reason to cause a fuss, and kept it on a ‘need to know’ basis 😀

* well…. with the exception of the physical threats a few pages ago. Luckily I hide behind the mask of internet anonymity, nobody knows me in real life, and myself and the bike I ride are difficult to identify. So I may yet escape going home in an ambulance, as punishment for my heinous crimes against lofty self-righteousness firmly yet quietly held beliefs about fwuffy things

Just to get back to the op, what was the aftermath from your actions Binners? Did the family find out?

edit – Ah, answered before I asked!

Junkyard – lazarus

We’re all making a massive assumption that the girl wasn’t allowed to have a burger because they were vegans

Except for that bit where Binners said the child said please can we go we will not tell them and we can say we had something else.
Where does that say she is forbidden to eat meat? Her parents may just disapprove (obviously given they’re vegans) but have not expressly forbidden it. i.e. “We’re disappointed that you’ve chosen to eat meat”.
Like I say, this 11 pages of (mostly) drivel based on assumptions.

“We’re disappointed that you’ve chosen to eat meat”.

Very Mumsnet – “We’re not angry with you, just very, very disappointed and sad” 😉

You’ve not just let yourself down……

As has been said before, most parenting involves at least some element of forcing your own views onto your children, be that bringing them up to eat meat, or to follow a vegan diet.

All of these people commenting and saying that kids have a right to choose etc etc, I assume that you have shown your own meat-eating children a video of what goes on inside an abattoir, so as they can make their own, informed decision? I suspect that the answer is no. Furthermore, I suspect that many of you have not exposed yourselves to the horrors of modern farming.

It’s a delicate issue, especially with young children. How can you justify telling them to follow a plant-based diet, without exposing them to the realities and horrors of a lot of modern farming? If you’ve not explained to them what animals have to go through to end up on a plate, of course they will jump at a chance to eat somewhere such as McDonald’s, because they feel they’re missing out on something that other kids get to do. Maybe this was the case here or maybe the kid just didn’t care and will grow up as an omnivore.

Eating meat is becoming fairly indefensible for moral, environmental and biological/health reasons

Just when I thought things were simmering down the b/s starts to fly again.
Moral’s I see the hand of fundamentalism (perhaps Hamza’s) rearing in aan ugly way. One man’s moral is another man’s unethical.

Environmental – ooops meat eating can be extremely environmental; much of the british countryside we love to ride through involves sheep/cattle in the maintenance of the natural ecology (e.g. Downland pasture). Unfortunately the land is not always suitable for wool producing sheep or dairy cows which leaves only one option… to maintain these crucial ecologies.
Additionally agriculture is often intensively farmed, needing lots of fertiliser which is not so environmental e.g. gaining a balanced veggie diet may require more food miles than eating locally produced organic meat a couple of times a week.

Health – there is no certain evidence one way or t’other. A balanced diet would appear to be optimum.

edited

sorry.

on a more serious note don’t you think it might be an idea to suggest the child broaches the subject with her parents? If she’s really not happy with her diet isn’t a proper discussion with her parents better than deception?* Obviously I doubt it would lead to her tucking into fillet steak at family dinner but parents may be cool about her eating meat outside of home.

*if she already has and parents vehemently disagreed then I dunno…I presume most veggies will be cool about their kids choosing to eat meat later in life, at what age varying between parents.

Equally, do those following a plant based diet show their children the conditions that the workers in the countries that produce the ‘out of season’, exotic and pulse type food that they eat are working in?

I suspect there’s as much if not more (because more people are employed to produce it) human suffering and inequality involved in the production of non-meat based imported food as there is meat.

Edited

Just when I thought things were simmering down the b/s starts to fly again.

Apologies for my lack of farming knowledge, none of the veggies are posting anything about it so I guess the vague impression I’d got from half read stuff about meat v veg production was wrong, ok fair enough I take it back.

Moral’s I see the hand of fundamentalism (perhaps Hamza’s) rearing in aan ugly way

eh? so only fundamentalists think killing animals might be a bit of a grey area morally speaking?

You stay classy there Donk

sorry did think twice about posting it even with disclaimer and apology. now edited, again apologies was definitely not being serious.

As they say around here – it was a c*nt’s trick. Can we just leave it there.

Binners – Next time she comes round, I think you have to show her this:

Can we just leave it there.

Are you new here?

Burger anyone ?

Meat Food eating need not be the unethical, environmental bugbear that it currently is, we just have to pay more for it to be less so.

We could drastically cut our food miles and create more agricultural jobs in this country, but few would be prepared to pay for it.

wwaswas, it’s not just vegans that eat exotic foods. Do you plan to sit down and have a chat with your kids about the ethics of coffee/ tea production when they express an interest in a morning cuppa? On the whole, the world is a very unfair place and not just to the animals. I’d consider it hypocritical, for example, if someone to preach to me about veganism and then to buy an item of clothing made in a sweatshop. We have to try our best, buy fairly traded goods, be conscious of the conditions of workers in other countries. If I had kids I would try to instil all of these ideas.