Oh dear! Ex Met chief calls for cyclists to be licensed.

Lord Hogan-Howe after, what is dramatically being called a ‘near death experience, is calling for cyclists to be licensed with a penalty points system akin to cars.

I must admit that I have seeing cyclists behaving badly & breaking the law, but they’re hardly representative.

https://archive.is/MJeAe (The Telegraph I’m afraid),

Oh bless.

Has someone built some jumps on his estate or held him up for five seconds in his Bentley?

**** off.

Perhaps he needs to call for the police to enforce existing laws? Cracking down on widespread use of illegal motorbikes for food delivery would be a start.

Oh bless.

Has someone built some jumps on his estate or held him up for five seconds in his Bentley?

**** off.

Oh this was a Lords debate the other day which he “sponsored” (or whatever the term is). As happens whenever the Lords debate cycling there are one or two sensible voices (notably Jenny Jones) and a whole load of absolute waffle and twoddle.

If you have a few hours spare, you can read the full text of the debate here:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2024-09-12/debates/0AE6E116-272B-4ECE-8B85-7BDA98675D52/PedalCycles

I’ve skim read bits of it, stopping to facepalm and inwardly cringe occasionally.

Oh this was a Lords debate the other day which he “sponsored” (or whatever the term is). As happens whenever the Lords debate cycling there are one or two sensible voices (notably Jenny Jones) and a whole load of absolute waffle and twoddle.

I haven’t read the text of the debate, but I seem to remember from somewhere that Robert Winston (baron or lord or something) was frothingly anti-cyclist.

Yet another reason the Lords needs a massive and fundemental reform.

As for the Met… the hierarchy  need to concentrate on sorting their own racist misogynistic house out rather than further feeding the Hate Mail’s anti-everything bollox.

Sounds good, at the point where government finances and resources are at breaking point, having to create an entire new licensing agency and new laws requiring policing with their limited resources, it sounds like a real winner.

Sounds good, at the point where government finances and resources are at breaking point, having to create an entire new licensing agency and new laws requiring policing with their limited resources, it sounds like a real winner.

No-one ever understands this. It’s rarely pointed out to the frothing idiots either.

I seem to remember from somewhere that Robert Winston (baron or lord or something) was frothingly anti-cyclist.

Yep, he’s terrible. He had a column in one of the RW papers (probably the Telegraph but I can’t remember) which routinely went off on one about cyclists. Standard stuff about “I love cycling… but only when it’s done by Olympians in velodromes, I don’t want it anywhere near me”

I watched the final hour of the replay of the debate last night on the BBC parliament channel.

Posted my initial thoughts on the Government thread.

I’ve skim read bits of it, stopping to facepalm and inwardly cringe occasionally.

I had similar feelings. After a few minutes I was ready to switch channel but I persevered.

There seemed to be a ‘if it happened once in London, it happens everywhere and every cyclist is up to no good whilst driving’ approach?

Driving a bike was used a lot.

That said. Cyclists riding through red lights and fast on pavements with disregard to pedestrians is bad.

Interesting how you never hear any figures for cyclists injured by pedestrians.

The only collision I’ve seen between a cyclist and a pedestrian was someone stepping onto the road from behind a parked van straight into the path of a guy on a bike.  Ended up with the pedestrian standing looking bemused and rubbing her arm while the cyclist was laid out motionless in the road.

I think the obvious answer is to license both cyclists and pedestrians.

The important bit is at the end of the article:

Transport minister Lord Hendy, responding on behalf of the Government, ruled out the introduction of licensing or mandatory insurance for cyclists

…

“The cost of administering such a scheme would be likely to outweigh any benefits and it would also be likely to lead to a reduction in the number of people cycling.

“This would have adverse effects on health and congestion, particularly if those cycling chose instead to use their cars for short journeys.”

Yes, the House of Lords is not fit for purpose (as Hogan-Howe demonstrates) but at least the government minister is responding to the nonsense appropriately in this case.

The problem is not just ignoring red lights; it is not giving way to pedestrian crossings, going up on the pavement, squeezing through gaps, and undertaking, to name a few. It shows the darker side of Mario Cipollini’s oft-misused cycling quotation: “If you brake, you don’t win”.

And he’s not wearing a helmet!

Meh.

We have been called worse recently. Press complaint anyone?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/11/entitled-cyclists-about-to-get-even-more-insufferable/

edit: https://archive.is/6bBWu

I think the obvious answer is to license both cyclists and pedestrians.

That includes our children, as they are most likely to walk to school, the wee trouble makers.

I suggest we save money and just tattoo a number on them from birth, somewhere visible like a cheek, so that they can be identified if a car ever has to slow for them.

Edit: I just had a thought, so many cats cross the road without so much as a glance or dogs with owners, they should be licensed.

I’m quite enjoying reading the Hansard transcript…

I believe we need regulation for current cyclists because their behaviour is, at times, becoming a bit like plague of mosquitoes. You simply cannot get them away from you when you get to traffic lights.

the “near-death” experienxe

“…On the occasion I was nearly hit, I would admit that I was partly responsible. Part of what happened was my fault and I would take that criticism—but I never saw this person. They disappeared, cycling at least at 30 miles per hour…”

My inference: And there we have it; daft old duffer steps out on cyclist, gets a shock and wants “revenge” so exaggerates the circumstances to reinforce his shit point

They disappeared, cycling at least at 30 miles per hour…”

And possibly not even a cyclist, but an illegal e-motorbike rider.

We have been called worse recently. Press complaint anyone?

These days the Daily Telegraph is far worse than the Daily Mail. And yes, spreading that level of hatred against cyclists is potentially quite dangerous.

… but a license on a bike would presumably just identify the bicycle, not the rider.

So you’d need to also legally require the owner of the bike to keep an accurate and detailed log of all its users at any given point in time.

This seems quite an administrative headache for what could be a 100 quid bike from argos.

And possibly not even a cyclist, but an illegal e-motorbike rider.

No, it’s a well known fact that all London cyclists are budding WorldTour riders. The Telegraph printed a story a while ago stating that “we” (as the collective of all cyclists) had done 52mph along the Embankment, the noble Lord was “nearly killed” by someone pedalling at “at least 30mph” (in a city where the average traffic speed is about 8mph).

Quite frankly, if you’re not “hurtling” through London (cyclists always “hurtle”) at 30mph, can you even call yourself a cyclist?!

The only collision I’ve seen between a cyclist and a pedestrian was someone stepping onto the road from behind a parked van straight into the path of a guy on a bike. Ended up with the pedestrian standing looking bemused and rubbing her arm while the cyclist was laid out motionless in the road.

I’ve been that cyclist, wrote off my Condor Fratello.

So old duffers had a pointless debate, and the government closed it down with a reasoned argument (as did the last government when it was raised). Democracy in action.

There’s loads of reasons to get rid of the House of Lords, doing it because some of them disagree with us in particular is a bit, well, dictatorial maybe?

“I believe we need regulation for current cyclists because their behaviour is, at times, becoming a bit like plague of mosquitoes. You simply cannot get them away from you when you get to traffic lights.”

How does a statement that stupid get into a HOL or parliamentary proposal or debate?

Rowley-Birken QC level stuff.

I’ve been that cyclist, wrote off my Condor Fratello.

Had similar once – pedestrian looked down at me sprawled in the road and she ran off. Thankfully bike and I were both OK.

The helpful and considerate driver behind me hooted at me as I lay in the road. How dare I hold up an Important Motorist by daring to crash in front of them.

Yup, all bikes jump red lights.  Oh wait, no.  This one made me chuckle –

Rare case of mass hallucination captured on film
byu/Old-Decision4570 indrivingUK

Yup, all bikes jump red lights.

Red light jumping is increasingly more common in the drivers I see locally as well. There’s always been the chancers who’ll sneak through hoping that there’s a delay in the lights changing, but these days, you often get 3-4 coming through on red let alone the change from orange to red.

TBH though I’m happy enough for these discussions to happen in the Lords. One, the debates are often more intelligent, nuanced and don’t have the overt political overtones of the commons, and: Two the arguments against licensing are so overwhelming, the impacts of cycling in the community so positive that to argue against them makes you kinda look like a luddite. The right wing press (Mail and Telegraph) will always go after cyclists, it’s culture war othering and it’s good for sales, but honestly the increasing numbers of cyclists is just testament to how much normal people just don’t buy into that narrative

He can p*** right orf.

I wonder what would happen to us on our tandem. Is it just the bike or both riders?

After returning from a weeks cycle touring around North and East Yorkshire, we didn’t see one incident of bad cycling. However some of the driving was atrocious, including a car overtaking our moving tandem (plus our friend’s tandem) with an emergency ambulance coming the other way in the centre of the road (around parked cars). My arm was stretched right out to try and stop the motorist from making his dangerous and ill timed manoeuvre from behind us into the oncoming ambulance.

This is of course nonsense, but having said that, I’m regularly shocked by how aggressively some cyclists ride in Central London in a way that I haven’t seen replicated in other major UK cities. Because London is the centre of the universe for those people that make the laws and the news they think it’s representative of all cyclists.

an emergency ambulance coming the other way in the centre of the road (around parked cars). My arm was stretched right out to try and stop the motorist from making his dangerous and ill timed manoeuvre from behind us into the oncoming ambulance.

TBF, the way some people drive when they see an emergency vehicle is shocking – I am not sure it is limited to trying to aggravate cyclists, it’s just people who seem to go into a blind panic and make the wrong decisions – speeding up to get out of the way, stopping at a point that actually holds up the emergency vehicle, completely ignore and carry on their merry way etc etc.

He can p*** right orf.

I wonder what would happen to us on our tandem. Is it just the bike or both riders?

My ususal response to these ideas, when I (against my better judgement) join in the argument on facebook etc, is to ask what type of licence my 6 year old would need, as he is a cyclist? And how much would this cost? Does he need to pay ‘road tax’ ?

Usually followed by some numbskull telling me I’m an idiot for letting a 6 year old ride in public. And I remind them that the cul-de-sacat the end of my drive is a great place to ride a bike, as well as being public highway.

Cracking down on widespread use of illegal motorbikes for food delivery would be a start.

100% – and I have to hold my hands up as I got into a heated argument on here defending people on electric bikes a couple of years ago – clearly I hadn’t seen the sort of bikes that were available at the time. I work in Leeds city centre and they are now everywhere, zooming around pedestrians (in pedestrian zones) and completely ignoring one way streets / traffic lights etc when they use the roads. Why proper regulation hasn’t been introduced yet is beyond me.

Why proper regulation hasn’t been introduced yet is beyond me.

There is proper regulation, in fact their are laws about licencing, insurance and registration of such machines as they are by definition Mopeds, (max of 50cc and less than 28mph – although in some cases…) So not a case of regulation, just a lack of enforcement.

So not a case of regulation, just a lack of enforcement.

My Mum, being a retired old biddy with nothing better to do, routinely goes to the local Community Policing / Safer Neighbourhoods / Neighbourhood Watch meetings which are – as with most meetings of that nature – populated by similarly old-aged biddies and this one comes up every single time.

Usually rife with anecdotes of how Mabel’s hairdresser said that her son’s girlfriend’s Mum’s best friend’s neighbour had been NEARLY KILLED by twelvtyseven rampant e-scooters doing somewhere between 40mph and the speed of sound and WHAT ARE TEH POLICE GOING TO DO?!

The police response is always the same – we can pull over someone on one of these bikes/scooters, confiscate the bike, fine them (which will never get paid) and that takes two police officers off the streets for 3hrs while they do the paperwork and meanwhile someone is ranting on UberEats that they never got their burger (cos that’s invariably the majority of people using these “e-motorbikes”) and someone else is complaining that the police never showed up after they’d been mugged at knifepoint.

I’m regularly shocked by how aggressively some cyclists ride in Central London in a way that I haven’t seen replicated in other major UK cities. Because London is the centre of the universe for those people that make the laws and the news they think it’s representative of all cyclists.

TBF, my commute into the University each morning sees a broad spectrum of riders. That includes some pavement riders, some ‘wrong way up the bike lane’ riders*, some red light ignorers etc. It is a minority, but they exist.

Problem is that the culture war around cycling features tarring all cyclists with the same brush, a deliberate ignorance of any facts, and a nasty, entitled edge by many.
.
.
.
.
*caused by shitty design of infrastructure, a fact lost on the majority of drivers.

The police response is always the same – we can pull over someone on one of these bikes/scooters, confiscate the bike, fine them (which will never get paid) and that takes two police officers off the streets for 3hrs while they do the paperwork and meanwhile someone is ranting on UberEats that they never got their burger (cos that’s invariably the majority of people using these “e-motorbikes”) and someone else is complaining that the police never showed up after they’d been mugged at knifepoint.

That’s a shitty excuse. A bit of concerted effort for a few weeks would soon change attitudes as word got round amongst the local riders, and the unlucky ones who got their bikes destroyed would likely not replace like for like. Then just enough effort by the police, (a couple a month if necessary) to make the risk too high to go back and a local problem could be solved fairly easily.

I sat in Five Guys on Tuesday night in Kings Cross and watched the general carnage outside. Were there “cyclists” (ie, people on bikes, not what I’d call “cyclists”) riding on pavements/riding the wrong way down the road/skipping red lights? Yes to all the above. Were there also cars skipping red lights/a blacked out 7 series doing laps of the block driving like a prick etc? Yes. Were there pedestrians walking out on a red man causing traffic to stop/swerve/beep? Yes. Was there a single policeman visible to witness or apply the long arm of the law to any of these people? No.

Staff and fund the police force sufficiently before suggesting such mental initiatives Lord Speaking-Out-Your-Hole

I don’t want licensing. However I have recently started cycle commuting back into London and the standard of cycling is appalling and in my opinion has seriously declined since I last commuted pre Covid.

I am in the minority of cyclist stopping at red lights; there are even riders with pillion children not stopping; there is no respect for pedestrians; cyclist are wearing big headphone; turning across cycle lanes with no indication and into the flow of oncoming cyclists.  Truly awful and embarrassing.

My theory is that electric hire bikes have introduced non cyclist to the streets but the offending is across all types of rider abusing the rules and the (mostly) excellent cycle infrastructure.

My theory is that electric hire bikes have introduced non cyclist to the streets

The problem with those is that they’re charged by time. Unlike on a bus where you’ve paid a fixed fee, spending longer on a bike costs more.

The average journey on a Lime bike is about 2km. If you stop at every light, walk across every pavement, that can be £1 more than just cruising along kind of taking care of what you’re doing (ie, not running people over, not causing drivers to take avoiding action), but still technically breaking the law. You can save a fair chunk of money, especially if you’re taking several bikes a day.

And by the way, that behaviour is no different to a driver “just” parking illegally to “just” nip to a shop because it’ll save them paying £1 in the car park that’s 30yds away. No matter that the wheelchair user now can’t get past because they’ve blocked the pavement…

It’s the same type of behaviour.

a local problem could be solved fairly easily

My point (and the point the police are making) is that’s it’s not a problem. It’s an irritation, sure. But it’s not a problem. There are not queues of nearly killed people in every hospital, there are not piles of bodies strewn across the streets with bike tyre markings across their heads. It’s annoying at worst. So, quite rightly, the under-resourced police are going to concentrate on the things that are a problem.

To be fair one or two of M’Luds were supportive of cyclists. Even commenting on their colleague’s resting HR!

Just find out were this bloke drives and sit in front at a max of say 15mph(so Ebikes can easily maintain that speed) and take up enough of the lane so he cannot easily pass. Make sure you’ve a camera running in case he tries to overtake too close.

Not that the police would prosecute once he throws the ‘lord’ moniker into the report

As law abiding cyclists, theres no requirement to ride in the gutter. Take the whole lane

Ride to rule.

But lets be fair if this is to be a grown up discussion. There are far too many asshats on two wheels, giving everyone else a bad rep.

The targets for enforcement should actually be against the companies that employSubcontract the riders as much as or instead of the riders themselves.