National Insurance and business leaders

It can be paid back from recovery – as the economy recovers there will be arise in tax receipts that will allow the debt to be repaid.

Well, why on earth didn't Labour do that last time? They pissed it up the wall expanding services and increasing the government payroll by over a million people instead of paying off debt and putting something aside.

So Zulu – what do you think we should be doing?

I think the only area we should be borrowing for and investing in is infrastructure – cut back to the bone on whats being pissed up the wall on administration and bureaucracy and put every penny we borrow to spend into tangible improvements – housebuilding, roadbuilding and civil engineering, if you want to talk about investing in the recovery, Keynesian economics, then thats how you do it, not employing legions of pen pushers now with no feasible payback in the future!

The prime object of any trading nation, is to maximise its wealth so that this can be distributed in as equitable a way as possible,

Thats quite funny considering your politics labrat.

So Zulu – what do you think we should be doing?

The current economic circumstances are irrelevant to him as you are dealing with someone who's idealogy is all about having a smaller state. The line of questioning shouldn't be how much should be cut back to to pay the debt back, but how much further the cuts should go to achieve the goals of his libertarian mindset.

Ah – these legions of useless penpushers – could you identify them?

Successive governments have tried to and failed – the rhetoric says they are there but the reality is a few million £ could be saved if you sacked every one – so where are the billions coming from that are needed.

Do you really think there are hundreds of thousands of unneeded people being employed? To make a billion savings a couple of hundred thousand people need to be sacked ( remember you only save their salary minus the amount of benefit they get and minus the reduction in demand their reduced income creates)

So plese identify the hundreds of thousands of public servant you are going to sack.

Heres a few thousand to start with:

The Rural Payments Agency
Tax Credits (replace with adjustment to tax codes and a change in basic personal allowances)
CSA Enforcement (deducted at source through change in tax code)

Thats a few folk. A few hundred thousand still to go.

On both tax credits and CSA you will still need another mechanism of some sort. What about self employed on the CSA one for example.

( remember you only save their salary minus the amount of benefit they get and minus the reduction in demand their reduced income creates)

Also, lots of these cutbacks will involve buying less services – software, support, training etc from private companies, reducing demand.

They pissed it up the wall expanding services

How dare they expand public services! We don't want those!

Indeed – most of the worst waste I know is private sector involvement in public sector projects. NHS computers for example. Reduce that waste and reduce the GDP

I don't like having a large state sector. It just seems that public employees are not very good at spending money wisely, so I'd rather that money was spent by individuals.

Just thinking locally to me, the county council has blown the thick end of £160M on a guided bus that's 2 years late, spent several million on random consultations trying to get us to like congestion charging, and pays the chief executive £200k (I'd happily do it for half that and a free supply of bike chains and brake pads).

When it's not your money it's awfully easy to waste it.

NHS computers for example.

NHS National Programme for IT? Originally £2.4Bn, and now somewhere north of £12Bn.

The only consolation is that we're keeping great British companies like IBM and Microsoft going.

I've just finished a job for a massive Saudi chemical company – they've just binned another project as 'unworkable' after blowing £90m on it

Not really any different from public cock ups apart from it doesn't get on the local news

The Rural Payments Agency
Tax Credits (replace with adjustment to tax codes and a change in basic personal allowances)
CSA Enforcement (deducted at source through change in tax code)

Who will pay the landed gentry?
Who will sort out paying the child carers?

Don't get me started on Govt IT. I'm on my second project.

If you really want to cut waste, you could start by creating a single Government IT department that was responsible for all the IT needs of the public sector. That way, it'd KNOW when it was doing the same damn thing over and over again and cocking it up in different ways – and could do something about it.

Having said that, the money they spend on this crap goes into the economy, so a lot of programmers'd lose their jobs. Me, for one.

I don't like having a large state sector. It just seems that public employees are not very good at spending money wisely, so I'd rather that money was spent by individuals.

Just thinking locally to me, the county council has blown the thick end of £160M on a guided bus that's 2 years late, spent several million on random consultations trying to get us to like congestion charging, and pays the chief executive £200k (I'd happily do it for half that and a free supply of bike chains and brake pads).

When it's not your money it's awfully easy to waste it.

You're getting the making cuts and proper accountability for spending mixed up.

You're getting the making cuts and proper accountability for spending mixed up.

Perhaps. Is "accountability" the system whereby whichever political party is in power, it's the same endless layers of empire-building civil servants and quangos spending money on things they think will make them look good at the next level up of their bloated parasitic organization?

One thing's for sure, Britain would be in a lot better condition if it could get a full days work out of its employees, both public AND private.
Instead, youse are all on here, wasting your beloved bosses money! 🙂
(I'm on day aff BTW)

The money tree will sort it all out just go out and harvest it. Spend it all and wait for more to grow, it's like magic really. Face it the money has gone, no amount of point scoring and politicing can change that. There will be cuts whoever gets in, anyone who says otherwise is a liar, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

It just seems that public employees are not very good at spending money wisely, so I'd rather that money was spent by individuals.

Mmm yes, but on the other hand private individuals cream tons of money off the top for themselves. Horses for courses perhaps.

Spend it all and wait for more to grow, it's like magic really.

No it's called investment. Basic economics.

Investment, now that is an interesting word when used as part of a lesson in basic economics. Is that a bit like putting horse sh1t on your roses, get plenty around that plant, it grows stronger cause it's getting well fed, you then get bigger and better flowers. Are the flowers what you would call a return on investment perhaps or just a nice to look at with no way paying for further manure purchases.

Returns on investment aren't necessarily re-invested. That's why re-investment is called re-investment and not investment.

But anyway, what's your point caller?

The horse sh1t needs to be paid for or it's not manure.

You've stretched the metaphor a bit too far there. Lost you.

I'm not suprised. Get back to the money tree.

Molgrips would that be the centralised IT function that was privatised and the trained staff scattered to the four winds?
Tax credits are administered by HMRC with no extra people Z 11, they are currently under fire for achieving efficiency savings by slashing head count with the consequent decrease in service standards. (Report here)