Fair enough, there is a difference between a joke and an insult but Charlie Hebdo never crossed this line.

but they knew it was a touchy subject…this became apparent when the death threats were issued against the Danish magazine for doing the same…they must have sensed that this was the case hence why they had police protection…nevertheless the actions of Charlie Hebdo did not warrant what those 2 evil men did when they murdered those 12 people

I am not sure why folk confuse freedom of speech and the freedom to insult

Its fairly simple. Insults are part of that ‘freedom of speech’.

You can call me a **** for believing that. I’m a grown up. I can take it

David Cameron should sue, then…

but they knew it was a touchy subject…this became apparent when the death threats were issued against the Danish magazine for doing the same

Yeah… theres a word for that. Its called intimidation. And thats where you cross the line as far as freedom of speech is concerned. Ironic isn’t it?

gonzy,

i agree with you but its one thing to criticise and another to ridicule/insult a religion and its followers

i feel we’re in a vicious circle here…the actions that have led to this discussion are unacceptable and so are some of the attitudes that have come to the forefront from the resulting debate on here

I agree that some people have gone too far. Going beyond criticism of an idea into making offensive assumptions about groups of people is where some people go wrong.

But you have to accept that fair criticism can be taken by some people as ridicule or insult.

In my view ridiculous beliefs need to be able to be ridiculed.

Virgin births, flying horses, the whole shebang is ridiculous. I feel quite alright saying that any religious person (of any creed) who looks critically at their own beliefs should chuck the whole lot.

But you have to be able to separate the idea from the people.
I have to run so I can’t source this quote I read recently:

“People are sacred not ideas”

That covers how I feel about it.

but they knew it was a touchy subject

That’s the point though isn’t it Gozny?
It shouldn’t be. Charlie Hebdo, like most people know that this “no images of the prophet” is just daft, which is what the entire “je suis charlie” thing is about.

If you are not a muslim yes it is daft f you are a muslim it is Haram
Either way one group imposes on another
Personally I am able to criticise Islam without drawing a picture of the prophet
One of those someone is going to be pissed off whatever happens
My line in the sand would be not criticising Islam where as not drawing the prophet is to just show them some basic respect

What if the insults become bullying ?
Is it still ok and freedom of speech?
Its irrelevant as there are limits to our free speech we are better off discussing where we draw the line rather than if the line is drawn.

I dont think anyone has the right to just wander around insulting folk

I dont think what ross and brand did was about free speech it was cruel and bullying
YMMV

Hostage takers holding at least six people at a Paris kosher supermarket are demanding freedom for the cornered brothers suspected of the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

That’s just not nice.

Didn’t the brothers say they wanted to be martyrs?

Israel have offered support. France could do with some serious Mossad action right now.

Maybe future opportunities for Mossad franchises on mainland Europe…

Its irrelevant as there are limits to our free speech we are better off discussing where we draw the line rather than if the line is drawn.

I’d rather not have the line drawn by violent religious fanatics and fascists thanks. We have a justice system, and laws, which clearly defines when the line has been crossed

I dont think anyone has the right to just wander around insulting folk

Yes they do. You do. I do. We all do. It may not be nice. You don’t have to like it. But it is a right. One we all share. Thats the price you pay for a truly free society I’m afraid.

should the hostage situation really be played out live on TV?

but they knew it was a touchy subject

getting a little close to victim blaming there. Backing down when threatened may be better for your health but it also means the biggest bastard gets their own way, something I like to think our society has grown out of (although admittedly it’s now the person with the most expensive lawyer that gets their way). Comments of “well they were warned*” really aren’t helpful at a time like this.

*when what they were doing was perfectly legal

I agree we are best no thaving fascist draw the line
I think we can be free without the right to wander round insulting folk

Why not give it a go and let me know how well it works for you? I am sure all the recipients from your boss to the police to the people in the street will respect your right to do so and nothing at all will happen to you.
its not an inevitable price though it is inevitable that some things in a free society will offend me.

What happened to be excellent to each other?

Quite possibly the most misleading title for a video ever

Video of the French security services breaking the siege at Dammartin:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zd3w3Hg_Wys[/video]

Couldn’t help but laugh 😆

How much bullying at work do I have to put up with before I get all jihadi?

I’m pretty worried about being invaded!!

Can anyone remind me of the last time a Muslim Nation launched a full scale military invasion of a Western country?

binners – Member

Yes they do. You do. I do. We all do.

Do it at work, you’ll get sacked. Do it at school, you’ll get suspended. Do it in the street and it’s a race to find out what happens first, a punch in the face or a trip in a police car for breach of the peace or similiar. None of it justifies shooting up a magazine but no, you don’t have the unadulterated right to wander around insulting people.

monkeyfudger – Member
How much bullying at work do I have to put up with before I get all jihadi?

Depends. Have you got a prophet?

The Mrs keeps saying I only ever think with my penis, does that count? It’s kinda like god talking to me.

Can anyone remind me of the last time an Islamic Nation launched a full scale military invasion of a Western country?

Don’t think its ever happened.
But only cos none of them can agree on who to invade & they don’t have an actual ‘invading capability’
Thats what I reckon anyway.

Islamic Nation launched a full scale military invasion of a Western country?

It depends on what you think Israeli is.

Invasion of Spain 711?

Agence France-Presse ?@AFP 3m3 minutes ago

FLASH Charlie Hebdo suspects killed

Do it at work, you’ll get sacked. Do it at school, you’ll get suspended. Do it in the street and it’s a race to find out what happens first, a punch in the face or a trip in a police car for breach of the peace or similiar. None of it justifies shooting up a magazine but no, you don’t have the unadulterated right to insult people.

I do. You do. We all do. I have to accept the consequences of insulting people. The ones you listed. But I have to factor that in with everything I do. As do you. As do we all.

But I still have the freedom to do it, because it is my right in a free society. The same as its everyone else right in a free society. The limits are set by the law. And I’ll respect that. But what I won’t accept is having the limits dictated by fascists

What we’re facing is one group of people dictating that, actually, when certain people are concerned, that right has now been withdrawn. And if one group of people get away with that, I think we can all guess what’ll happen next

And this is why, whether we like it or not, we have to do everything in our power as a society, to defend this right.

Do it at work, you’ll get sacked. Do it at school, you’ll get suspended.

There are a great many things which I have the right to do but doing so at work could get me into trouble – as it happens I’m doing one right this very second by posting this. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

The Associated Press ?@AP 2m2 minutes ago

BREAKING: Police forces storm Paris kosher grocery where gunman holds 5 hostages; woman seen leaving.

But I still have the freedom to do it, because it is my right in a free society.

You kind of don’t though. It’s a criminal offence to abuse someone based on race, gender or sexuality. Occassionally religion gets bundled in to that as well (although it shouldn’t).

Do it at work, you’ll get sacked. Do it at school, you’ll get suspended. Do it in the street and it’s a race to find out what happens first, a punch in the face or a trip in a police car for breach of the peace or similiar. None of it justifies shooting up a magazine but no, you don’t have the unadulterated right to wander around insulting people.

Drawing cartoons won’t cause any of that.

aaaaand…..they’re dead (apparently). Didn’t think it could end any other way to be honest. The desire for martyrdom, killing police and the weapons.

It’s a criminal offence to abuse someone based on race, gender or sexuality. Occassionally religion gets bundled in to that as well (although it shouldn’t).

Wrecker. Thats my whole point. The limits are set by the law. The laws are made by our democratically elected government. So I know what the limits are , and I’m happy to live within them.

Criticising or ridiculing someones beliefs is not a crime. Nor should it be. Though its obvious there are people who think it should be. These people aren’t great fans of democracy and the freedoms it grants us

getting a little close to victim blaming there

no i’m not and if it comes across as this then i’m sorry. everyone has a freedom of speech but when you know that criticism of something in that manner may be seen as an insult that could potentially have repercussions of that nature then i would think carefully about airing those opinions in the first place.
however that does not mean for one second that its ok to murder people in retaliation.

My line in the sand would be not criticising Islam where as not drawing the prophet is to just show them some basic respect

hmm. Making an image of the prophet is presumably a heresy, don’t the rest of the none muslim world commit lots of heresies everyday (a new one I learned today, the children of apostates being in a world of trouble for eg seems overly harsh). Why is this one so important? is this the numero uno top heresy?

if so is there a top ten?

i would think carefully about airing those opinions in the first place.

I suspect they thought extremely carefully about it – that’s probably why they did it.

binners – Member
I am not sure why folk confuse freedom of speech and the freedom to insult
Its fairly simple. Insults are part of that ‘freedom of speech’.

You can call me a **** for believing that. I’m a grown up. I can take it

Actually it’s not simple at all, it’s extremely complex. This debate is often started with an assumption that we support freedom of speech. But that is untrue, we place considerable restrictions on what you can and cannot say eg slander laws, laws on incitement, discrimination etc, Furthermore, from a legal perspective the case is based on whether someone feels offended in many cases eg sex, race discrimination in the workplace.

So establishing what is and isn’t acceptable is very challenging. On balance I always verge towards greater liberty and freedom ** (and yet find much of the religion bashing on here offensive (*) and surprised that it is not modded stricter. But other issues are – so clearly there are considerable differences of opinion.)

* constant statements that religious people are insane/have mental issues etc.
** rather give folk like Salmond, Farrage! Griffen airtime so that they can condemn themselves out of their own mouths. They are good at doing that.

So establishing what is and isn’t acceptable is very challenging

Not when it’s about satirical cartoons it isn’t.

Alex Salmond.

“House” 😀

Nick Cleggs comments today that “In a free society people have to be free to offend each other. There is no such thing as a right not to be offended. You cannot have freedom unless people are free to offend each other.”

This is patently untrue and flies in the face of UK legislation.

We legally protect the right of some not to be offended.

[indeed – get him trying to explain the currency and the house of cards fell over. That’s exactly why people should be allowed to speak! Spooky amount of stalking going on ]

Hmm okay …

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3578432,00.html

Seems like two different sets of rules.

I agree with what THM said in general* if not the specific STW case though it is often rude and I am also guilty of that charge..

What we’re facing is one group of people dictating that, actually, when certain people are concerned, that right has now been withdrawn. And if one group of people get away with that, I think we can all guess what’ll happen next

We have to not call black people the N word?
We have to respect homosexuals?
Women no longer know their place?

Why is this one so important? is this the numero uno top heresy?

Its idolatry though there is the usual SUnni SHia schism with the later having images of the prophet

* first post and he had not mentioned AS when i read it though he never says edit when he edits. Ps this is an edit 😉

Nick Cleggs comments today that “In a free society people have to be free to offend each other. There is no such thing as a right not to be offended. You cannot have freedom unless people are free to offend each other.”

Never thought I’d agree with Cleggy, but he’s bang on the money there!