I have read a bit by and about Emin and think she is a disturbed individual with issues and a chancer.

The clue is here, Fred-

Tracey Emin is not an artist.

A charlatan, a fraud, a con-artist perhaps.

She’s not an artist though. Mainly cos she don’t actually produce any art.

Tracey Emin’s work fits very well with my (rather unremarkable) definition of art, whereas you have declined to provide any counter argument beyond hiding behind your cheeky chappie net persona.

I have read a bit by and about Emin and think she is a disturbed individual with issues and a chancer.

Then there’s nothing left to say. I told you my definition of art and you proposed a different one. I told you how I think Tracey Emin fits my definition, and without evidence you choose to discount my reasoning. Your choice. There’s no real definition of art, so you can reserve it for what you want.

I had to log in , I just had to see where this thread was going, what stage it’s at..

Just brilliant..

It’s still running, I’ll catch up tomorrow.

Artists these days define themselves as artists and what they do as art because they are artists, and themselves as artists because they make art. This is a self-perpetuating circle jerk.

I agree that this would be true if that is what artists did. But that argument itself is circular, you need to give an example. I think artists, be they visual or literary or musical, try to convey a message, sentiment or emotion of some depth,

guys! it’s a social contruction! it’s not about the intrinsic qualities of innanimate objects or individual acts of agency!

That’s fine, which is why Duchamp’s fountain was art. Because of the social (and artistic) context in which it was placed. The message and intention was relevant back then. For someone to put a urinal in a gallery now it would not have the same message and would not necessarily be art. The argument that it was Shanks not Duchamp who was the artist does not hold because it is not the urinal itself which is art, it is the idea of putting in in a gallery alongside other more conventional artistic pieces which makes it art, and not just by association.

whereas you have declined to provide any counter argument

Erm, try reading; you might learn something…

Or you could continue being arrogant and condescending and attempting to belittle and denigrate others just cos you don’t agree with them.

You like Emin. I don’t. I don’t recognise what she does as ‘art’, and neither do others, as this thread shows.

Your attitude proves just how elitist and snobbish you are. Oh look at you so clever and knows loads of stuff about art.

Pfft.

This entire thread basically proves my argument. Go away, have a think about it. read through it again.

Then one day, if you’re lucky, you might work it out.

My turn to be condescending: You think I’m ignorant? Shows how ignorant you are then, dun’t it?

An example charlie mungus – Hirst and the britart crew – they do a lot of that.

You also see this in literary circles – they all comment on and critique each others pieces – always favourably unless there is a hissy fit going on

See its grim up north london

I don’t believe some of the worthless tat masquerading as art is actually intended to do anything but con mugs into paying for it.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You just have your opinion on the matter. Why not do it yourself and make some easy ££££s?

But folks have said why they think what tracey emin does is art. Is it that you don’t think that her work does that, or that the thing it does is not artistic?

An example charlie mungus – Hirst and the britart crew – they do a lot of that.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but that covers a lot of artists. Do you really mean all of them, or can you be more specific?

ach..
great debate now veering outside of my attention span..
here is some street art.. taking art to the masses and opening hearts and minds at grass roots level..

But folks have said why they think what tracey emin does is art.

Have they? Where?

great debate now veering outside of my attention span..

Innit though Yunki….

and the subversive act of taking art to the masses is artistic in itself.

But folks have said why they think what tracey emin does is art.

Have they? Where?

Well, on the last thread we had on this subject, numerous reviews but if you mean specifically here and now…

Then i think the bed is art because it ask you to reconsider firstly the importance of the bed in your life beyond a piece of furniture. By listing the people she has shared hers with, it makes you (some people) think about the folks they have shared a bed with, their friends, their lovers, their one night stands, their partners, their mums, your mum, their children. Then they start to realise that actually their bed tells the story of their lives and so regard their bed in a different way. I reckon

OIk fair enough that’s what it sez to you. But you needed to explain that though, and it’s only your interpretation. Nothing more.

it’s just an unmade bed to me. Mine has significantly more meaning to me than Emin’s. But then, my lectric kettle has significantly more ‘meaning’ for me than Emin’s bed.

Does that make it art?

£200,000 to you guv.

do it then if it’s that easy and meaningless.

make yourself a fortune if it’s all smoke and mirrors.

yeah, see, that’s why i think it’s art, but you need to tell me what aspect of that you disagree with. like maybe you think it doesn’t have that effect on people or you think that effect is not enough to make it art

Elfinsafety – Member

it’s just an unmade bed to me

and therein lies the problem

Ok, anyone of youse an art dealer? Gallery owner? Well connected in the art world? Friends of Charles Saatchi?

As you were then….

OIk fair enough that’s what it sez to you. But you needed to explain that though, and it’s only your interpretation. Nothing more.

I needed to explain it to you, but i dare say it provoked a similar reaction in many people. which is why it was significant

and therein lies the problem

What ‘problem’ is that then?

I needed to explain it to you, but i dare say it provoked a similar reaction in many people. which is why it was significant

The Wonderbra adverts probbly provoked a greater reaction in a significantly larger number of people.

Were they ‘art’?

Can you do this bit?

yeah, see, that’s why i think it’s art, but you need to tell me what aspect of that you disagree with. like maybe you think it doesn’t have that effect on people or you think that effect is not enough to make it art

The Wonderbra adverts probbly provoked a greater reaction in a significantly larger number of people.

Waht do you mean by a ‘greater’ reaction?

Well, I’d say they probbly provoked more of an emotional reaction in more people. What d’you reckon?

(IT’s ok mods it’s in the context of a discussion of art and therefore fine)

No?

so far this thread has boiled down to two lines of argument.

side A) carefully considered, well articulated theory

side B) it’s all shite and they’re all ponces

it was fun at times though.

night all, i’m sure this one will still be kicking in the morning

Well, I’d say they probbly provoked more of an emotional reaction in more people. What d’you reckon?

I reckon ‘more’ means much the same as ‘greater’ and i’m still not sure what you mean by it. I also reckon you’re not answering the question I asked earlier.

so far this thread has boiled down to two lines of argument.

side A) Lots of pretentious over-intellectualised waffle by supercilious arrogant snobs.

side B) Some plain truth from people who don’t believe in bullshit.

FTFY.

Sleep tight….

you need to tell me what aspect of that you disagree with.

All that ‘meaning’ you have decided to attach to it which I jolly well have not. Oh, apparently, according to some on here that makes me fik and stupid….

Why have I not interpreted the work as you have?

I’m still non the wiser!!

All that ‘meaning’ you have decided to attach to it which I jolly well have not.

Ok, but because it provokes the same reflection and consideration in lots of people, even if it doesn’t for others, is enough to make it art. It doesn’t have to do it to everybody.

Oh, apparently, according to some on here that makes me fik and stupid….

Not according to me, I think the cause is more likely environmental or genetic

Why have I not interpreted the work as you have?

I don’t know. Have you seen it? Have you thought about the people you’ve shared your bed with?

I think the cause is more likely environmental or genetic

No point in continuing discussing owt with someone who is rude. See ya.

What again? always with the escape route, why not stay and finish the discussion. I wasn’t being rude, merely offering a counter to other peoples opinions. Incidentally when they were rude but offered arguments you felt you were able to deal with, you were quite happy to stay and argue. So, clearly rudeness isn’t the reason you choose to leave the debate.

Is this now the Tower Hamlets defence?

Anyway, do tell me which group you had put me into, earlier, was it the supercilious arrogant snobs ?
Just checking like, in case you were the one who was being rude

trailmonkey – Member

so far this thread has boiled down to two lines of argument.

side A) carefully considered, well articulated theory

side B) it’s all shite and they’re all ponces

it was fun at times though.

night all, i’m sure this one will still be kicking in the morning

Nope – its
A) if you don’t think its art its becuse you are an ignorant philistine. Its art cos the critics say it is.

B) – Its the emperors new clothes.

Seriously the quality of argument for Emins bed as art is really poor. I thought a better case could be made.

carefully considered, well articulated theory

Where?

Is this now the Tower Hamlets defence?

You’ve got nothing better, have you?

why not stay and finish the discussion

Because you’ve upset me.

Is this now the Tower Hamlets defence?

You’ve got nothing better, have you?

Yes, you’ve articulated it exactly.

So, where you gonna go from here, MungBean? Continue with the attempts to insult me, try to make yourself look clevererererer than me?

Do you really think that’s gonna work?

I mean, after all, I’m an idiot, so does arguing with an idiot make you cleverer?

Just where did I insult you?

You do this often, Elfin, argue the toss for ages, then when you get called on a point which you are unable answer or justify, you take offence at an innocuous statement and excuse yourself from the debate rather than admit you might have been wrong.

Where do i go from here? I just wait to see if you have any answer to the questions that have been asked of you. Luckily this is the web, so I don’t really have to ‘wait’.

But to be honest, I’m not expecting much, so I’m unlikely to be disappointed. Anyway, thanks for playing, sorry if it got too rough for you but you started it.