MILLIBRANDS lost the plot,

Yes Adam, you can change week by week. The same way you could change your broadband or mobile phone provider every week. It’d be stupid, but no-one’s stopping you from doing it.

Not really – it takes up to four weeks to change. It was used in the early days of deregulation to avoid paying as all the DTC flows were all over the shop between companies. You try changing this week to, say, E.On then exactly one week later trying EDF or ScottishPower. No can do until the last one goes through. Then to achieve the best price you have to agree to a lock-in. Which may not be the best price next week. The supermarket analogy is flawed.

The two companies you chose are multi nationals, the clue is in the euro figures. Not so relevant for a discussion of the UK energy market.

This was in response to someone talking about overall profits being shown instead of just the retail side. If you like we can go back to my comment about how retail cries that it has no profit yet generation rakes it in. About 50% of the price we pay goes to the generators, usually attached to the retailers.

I’ll ask you this then, what is an acceptable profit for an energy company to make? Remember that tax is paid on these profits and in the course of their daily business these companies directly and indirectly support tens of thousands of jobs. No profit = no investment = no jobs.

I am not saying that a company cannot make profit. Without it there would be no reason to operate. What I am thinking about is the scale and possible mendacity of companies crying about wafer thin profits which are actually fat ones hidden from view. If not then they wouldn’t be offering long-term fixed-price deals. I also refuse to bow down and worship any company because it brings ‘jobs’. I see a lot of these ‘jobs’ having to be subsidised by the taxpayer through tax credits etc. as they pay far too little. Also I see the same companies offshoring a lot of these ‘jobs’ to increase their profit further to the detriment of the economy.

Where is the tax paid on EDF profits? Is that in the UK or France? EON – is that in UK or Germany? I honestly don’t know, so can’t tell. The only other taxes would be the VAT on the fuel paid for by us.

I’d be for the market to work correctly. It currently isn’t. There are a few large players in a virtual cartel. They all wait until one breaks ranks with pricing then all do it. Mrs T broke up the network into 12 distinct areas, based on their electricity boards. They’ve now been gobbled up by massive firms. I’d be for breaking the market up again to introduce more competition.

If you want to make me ruler of the UK (or world, actually) then I’d be happy to sort it all out and let you know about the acceptable profit.

Every penny that a public sector worker spends either finds its way back to the government as tax, or goes out of the country.

Really? so if only tax revenue stays in the country, I guess all those private sector jobs the tories keep telling us will save the day don’t really exist. Cutting spending to create a vibrant private sector must have completely failed, the government better get spending.

How can any government earn tax revenues from public sector workers? If I give you £100 and you give me £20 back, I’m not up by £20, I’m just down by £80. It cannot work. We need a cash influx, not out flux.

Well they also spend the £80 and that pays wages and gives folk jobs who = then pay taxes [ rather than claim benefits] and then they spend the rest and then that gives jobs to folk who pay taxes etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynsian_economics

But has anyone got any faith in wimopy millibrand to actually have the strength of character or even ability to get people to vote fopr him and make him leader of the new governmnet.

Junkyard, I don’t take offence, carry on good sir

Berm bandit. It’s easy to say we should help all those that need it but the reality is that in not too many years there really won’t be enough to go around. If more has to be spent to prop up the debt, how long before China will have to bail out Western Europe? No, I don’t think they’d bother either, so carrying on regardless and waiting for the next guy in the line to pick up the tab is frankly a stupid idea.

Thought as much. The vast majority of welfare is paid for by the recipient through National Insurance contributions and general taxation. i.e. they are just receiving what they and very often their parents have been paying into for years. Bit like buying insurance… (clues in the name).

The problem with your concept is that its actually more expensive to do as you suggest. I admit it is regrettable, but throwing people onto the streets does have a cost in real terms, as does not treating people who are ill, or not paying people the pension they have earnt throughout their lives.

Junkyard we are still mammals. However absurd it might seem, our awareness has not exactly won through at any given point in history anywhere.

not sure I agree, take the example ofthe rise in global environmentalism, ok we may not be reversing the declines but it many cases it has slowed change. Foxes just kill all the chickens.

But what happens when the robins and chickens get scarce? The most cunning foxes survive. At a macro scale our history is not too dissimilar. I find it hard to see any change to the patterns from ancient history to the 21st century. The sets use less swords and more megabits of data but otherwise it’s the same old story…

Why can’t our politicians be brighter ANC work this out for themselves……?

I think I need some whiskey…

Back to a comment a couple of hours ago,

If you like we can go back to my comment about how retail cries that it has no profit yet generation rakes it in. About 50% of the price we pay goes to the generators, usually attached to the retailers.

The rules of the market separate the gas and electric supply bit of the company from the retail businesses. They all have to trade in a general pool. Great when there was a glut of gas, coal and lots of nuclear, but the reason now for high wholesale prices.

Ed Mugabe

Storm in a teacup

This student union leader will never be elected

Excellent last two posts

Any more deep and insightful comments insults?

Ed mugabe is particularly odd one tbh

Some insights then!

Energy firms are as, if not more, hated than the banks. So its just a popular policy that is unworkable in reality… It goes off the scale in focus groups… You can already fix your prices for 2 years, so it will be a low impact re-hashed version of what we already have that will drop off the radar a-la green deal, or they will have to get stuck in and deal with the 3 main reasons that prices have risen.

1/Government green pseudo taxes (smart meters, Energy company obligation etc0
2/World gas markets (particularly after japan closed nuclear)
3/investment in transmission and distribution

One of the above will have to give in order to reduce prices, the easiest one to do would be to cancel all the pseudo taxes as trying to squeeze the other two just leads to blackouts!!!

Centrica, also happens to be the biggest single contributor to the exchequer! and held by pretty much all private sector pensions, so its in most peoples interests that these companies do well, make a profit, to pay the shareholders and make the investments needed to keep the lights on.

But what happens when the robins and chickens get scarce? The most cunning foxes survive. At a macro scale our history is not too dissimilar. I find it hard to see any change to the patterns from ancient history to the 21st century. The sets use less swords and more megabits of data but otherwise it’s the same old story…

All species use resources and go through population cycles which include crashes. Thus far humans have avoided the crash. The very fact that we know about the crashes and understand that resources are finite sets us apart from every other species on the planet.

AndyRT – Member

On another point, has anyone really got a definitive understanding of economics? Really? Why does it seem like such guess work and bluff?

I like to let economists talk about their predictions for a while before asking how accurate their predictions were in 2005.

wobbliscott – Member

How can any government earn tax revenues from public sector workers? If I give you £100 and you give me £20 back, I’m not up by £20, I’m just down by £80. It cannot work. We need a cash influx, not out flux.

Same way any other organisation gains a benefit from employees while paying them money. Pay you £100, get £20 tax back, get £90 back in profit from the work done- whether that be a cash benefit (profitmaking institutions- tax officials, etc) or a valuable service worth that amount (ie schools, NHS) Do you think that the public sector generates no value?

I haven’t read the rest of the thread so apologies if it has already been raised, but npower already offer a capped price for energy until 2017 if you switch to them.

Milliband looking a little out of depth on news now, but at least he has the purple tie on!

The pflaff on what will energy prices be, was a good example of how poorly thought out the flagship policy is.

No it doesn’t’ work Ransos. What other countries are you talking about? Greece? Italy? Portugal? Spain? France? I don’t think we need to learn any lessons from those countries.

Norway and the United States. So that’s one country that is much more socially just, and another that is much more wealthy.

Still think we have nothing to learn?

Interesting article from Damien Carrington: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2013/sep/25/energy-energy

Two fundamental points:

1. Energy investment has been woeful for the last 20 years during which time there have been no price caps. So why would this policy make any difference to that?

2. The government will continue to guarantee a price for new generation. Policy for infrastructure is separate to policy for energy consumers.

Peter Mandleson has come out and publicly criticised it in the press. Which means it has to be a good idea. All we need is for Blair to weigh in deriding it, and the labour poll lead should go up ten points

Thought as much. The vast majority of welfare is paid for by the recipient through National Insurance contributions and general taxation. i.e. they are just receiving what they and very often their parents have been paying into for years. Bit like buying insurance… (clues in the name).

Nothing is invested, it’s nothing like insurance. It’s a Ponzi scheme.

The trouble with Ponzi schemes is that they only work when more is being paid in than taken out.

CaptJon – Member
I haven’t read the rest of the thread so apologies if it has already been raised, but npower already offer a capped price for energy until 2017 if you switch to them.

You mean they can manage with capped prices without blackouts hitting the country, investors fleeing and ending all infrastructure investment?

but that means the energy companies, the torys and the right wing press are talking out of their bums

Norway and the United States.

The US ?? Are you sure about that?

I was of the impression the only place where they capped energy price there, was in California….. It lead to black outs for them 🙄

And Norway’s not really the greatest of examples… it’s bit like saying how Saudi cap the price of petrol.

but npower already offer a capped price for energy until 2017 if you switch to them.

In the words of the money advice websites:

Although this may sound like a great option that gives you the best of both worlds, the starting price of capped energy tariffs are often more expensive than fully fixed deals, meaning you pay more for your energy from the outset.

So, the Fantastic progressive solution is that poor people in fuel poverty end up paying a higher price for their fuel so that middle class Labour voters don’t have to worry about price rises!

So, the Fantastic progressive solution is that poor people in fuel poverty end up paying a higher price for their fuel so that middle class Labour voters don’t have to worry about price rises!

but labour have said they will set the cap from an historic price of their choosing, so the energy corps cant ramp up their prices just before it comes in

Ro5ey – Member
Norway and the United States.

The US ?? Are you sure about that?

I was of the impression the only place where they capped energy price there, was in California….. It lead to black outs for them

And Norway’s not really the greatest of examples… it’s bit like saying how Saudi cap the price of petrol

I think they had gone off on the childcare tangent and werent talking about energy

Ro5ey – Member

I was of the impression the only place where they capped energy price there, was in California….. It lead to black outs for them

Really? So it wasn’t the illegal supply manipulation that started after market deregulation that caused it then?

are you talking about the Enron scandal?
if youve not seen this well worth a watch

Not just Enron but yep

Are the energy firms trying to make Ed look good?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24607242

No, more a case of trying to make him look stupid. And they’re succeeding imo.

20 month price freeze ffs.

Whilst of course leaving Britain’s energy supplies, which are an essential necessity for Britain’s consumers, in the hands of private companies and foreign governments.

And he likes to call himself a “socialist” 😀

No, more a case of trying to make him look stupid. And they’re succeeding imo.

That isn’t exactly the biggest challenge.

Yeuch – Socialism. No thanks.

Yeuch – Socialism. No thanks.

Where’s the Socialism?

Yeuch – Socialism. No thanks.

The Millibanana. What a waste of oxygen. Fixed for 20 months?

I just switched and fixed my own supply for four years.

Of course, he’ll no doubt get votes from those apathetic couch potatoes who expect Nanny State to do everything for them because they’re too busy sitting on their arses eating junk food and watching Jeremy Kyle or the like…

I just switched and fixed my own supply for four years.

With EDF apparently. And yet EDF said that a 20 month price freeze was not sustainable, so their own 48 month price freeze means that they were either lying, or, you are paying over the odds to guarantee that they won’t be losing money. You decide. The one thing you can be sure of is that they aren’t giving anything away for nothing.

.

Of course, he’ll no doubt get votes from those apathetic couch potatoes who expect Nanny State to do everything for them because they’re too busy sitting on their arses eating junk food and watching Jeremy Kyle or the like…

Surely these people aren’t paying for their own electricity bills, aren’t hardworking taxpayers doing that ?

Or have I read the script wrong ?

The loony left are at it again with their unworkable socialist schemes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24621391

Former prime minister Sir John Major has called for an emergency tax on the profits of the UK’s top energy firms.

The ex-Conservative leader said recent price rises of more than 10% were “unacceptable” and action was needed.

Asked about Labour’s plan for price freeze if it is elected in 2015, Sir John said “Ed Miliband’s heart was in the right place but his head has gone walkabout”, adding that the plan was unworkable.

So how does he think his tax on the energy companies will work – how will that reduce the fuel bills for consumers ?

He’s a typical Tory – thinks the solution is higher taxes. It was him who first introduced VAT on domestic fuel when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer.

And of course the standard rate of VAT was only 8% when the Tories came to office in 1979, by the time they left office they had pushed it up to 17.5%, more than doubled it.

As soon as they came back in office in 2010 they increased it to 20%.

Someone ought to tell the Tories that taxation isn’t always the only solution.

when I heard that on the news this evening the first thing I said to Mrs Stoner was that whoever thinks a tax is the best mechanism to solve perceived excessive retail pricing issues is a grade a nincompoop.

I might have put it a little differently in the heat of the moment though.

I think what annoys me most is that Major hadn’t said or done anything stupid for so long he had almost become rehabilitated too. What a waste.