So, triumphant omnivores “catching us out” because we wear leather shoes or drink milk are probably missing the point. I don’t eat my shoes.

I don’t care either way, but…you don’t eat your shoes, but, by your argument, you wouldn’t mind walking round with turds on your feet?

Shall we go, ahem, squirrelling next weekend tazzy? 💡

Shall we go, ahem, squirrelling next weekend tazzy?

it’s a date darling, I’ll show you where to bury your nuts for winter

walking round with turds on your feet, now that’s not very attractive or becoming of a wholesome Stwer.

I’m not fussed either way about what people eat. I don’t eat meat because it grosses me out and I don’t like the taste.

It does annoy me when because I’m vegetarian people start spouting rubbish like saying about how much extra space we’d need to grow grain if everyone was veggie, or how many more animals would get killed by farming all that grain. When it is pretty obvious to even the most dumb assed of people that animals also eat grain, so to eat animals requires far more grain or vegetables to be grown than to eat a vegetarian diet.

I don’t think there’s a moral point to be made either way – we all pick an arbitrary point at which we stop eating things, unless we’re cannibals. But there is certainly a very clear environmental argument if you like that sort of thing.

I quite like to nibble nuts before burying them tazzy. Especially if they’re coated in that milky morning dew.

it’s a date darling, I’ll show you where to bury your nuts for winter

3D.

by your argument, you wouldn’t mind walking round with turds on your feet?

Slippers?

Or some other form of turdy footwear?

It does annoy me when because I’m vegetarian people start spouting rubbish like saying about how much extra space we’d need to grow grain if everyone was veggie, or how many more animals would get killed by farming all that grain. When it is pretty obvious to even the most dumb assed of people that animals also eat grain, so to eat animals requires far more grain or vegetables to be grown than to eat a vegetarian diet.

We-ell, how can I put this. Obviousness and dumb-assedness aside, that’s not quite right I’m afraid. Purely from a land perspective, it’s more efficient to let animals eat crops and then eat animals. If the whole world was vegetarian, we wouldn’t have the farmland to feed everybody.

Grass, anyone?

zokes your right we seem to have weight well under control with out current diet. Good point well made

Yes, and that’s clearly caused by people eating meat, as opposed to just eating too much whilst not exercising enough. 🙄

Excellent post Cougar, I can never be arsed arguing with meat eaters about my dietary choices, I may print that and have it as a handout!

The one meat eater bingo one you missed out was, ‘eeew, you’re vegetarian, what DO you eat then?’

Wasn’t there a scientific report recently showing that the earth is loosing top soil and top soil nutrients at an alarming rate to the point that without significant chemical and human input the worlds crop growing capacity is going to be massively reduced? Looks like people arw back on the menu and it’ll help with the over population issue as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/agriculture/farming/6828878/Britain-facing-food-crisis-as-worlds-soil-vanishes-in-60-years.html

The biggest threat to food security, however, is still that we’re crap at the logistical side of getting it to where it’s needed, rather than not being able to grow enough of it

I’ve never known tazzy not to secure meat in the most suitable spot. No logistics problems at his sausage parties.

No logistics problems at his sausage parties.

ahhhhh DD, those days of wiener action are well past.

I’m far more interested in some form of cattle based haberdashery these days.

Soooooooo.

That was how you spent your Sunday night then ?.
😯

Yes, I’ve read it all. In response to the OP. Is eating meat becoming unfashionable then ?.

Anyway, I’m not entirely sure, but I suspect most of you are Human…
Furthermore, I’m not sure you can change that, you know, give it back or something.

Humans evolved to become a top level predator and ultimately to achieve dominion over the Earth. On a diet of Plants and Animals. Thats just how it is. Eating calorie and nutrient dense food such as meat allowed us to develop larger brains*
Today you can still find examples of people living almost exclusively on meat as they have done for a very long time and folk who survive with very little meat in their diet.

This demonstrates the flexibility that has evolved in the Human body, in order to give us the best chances of survival. In accordance with our surroundings and the foods sources available therein.

However, its widely accepted that an optimal diet for Humans, requires meat. Like it also doesn’t require smoking.

Its your choice, buttercup.
😉

*applies to a varying degree here.

Eating calorie and nutrient dense food such as meat allowed us to develop larger brains*

If this was true then pure meat eaters would be brighter than us
Any animal heavier than us has al arger brain and there is little relationship betweenbrain wiegth and brain power [ also true between humans the heavier brain wont be brighter or all men would be brighter than women ]

Its seems that the amount of meat consumed and intelligence is not a factor in nature or else tigers or lions or polar bears would be top of the chain. Its a myth but a commonly held one. Being bipedal and freeing our hands for tools was more important though it largely just eduicated guessing

its widely accepted that an optimal diet for Humans, requires meat

I wold translate this as those who eat meat says its essential/optimal those who dont say it is not essential.

As for optimal – you can eat a bad diet whether meat or meat free so knowing this one fact alone will not be helpful/informative on deciding how good a diet the person has.

Humans evolved to become a top level predator and ultimately to achieve dominion over the Earth. On a diet of Plants and Animals. Thats just how it is.

A diet mostly of plants. We certainly didn’t evolve to need the vast quantites of meat we typically consume in prosperous countries.

Is eating meat becoming unfashionable then ?.

It is if it’s a steak in a Leicster square Berni Inn/Garfunkles on your once a year wide-eyed trip south to ‘that London’
It isn’t if it’s pulled pork and slaw or big-m sliders in a soho pop-up

Its seems that the amount of meat consumed and intelligence is not a factor in nature or else tigers or lions or polar bears would be top of the chain.

If that’s your logic then you’re adding weight to Solo’s theory 🙂

Bit daft to make comparisons about inteligence across species!

Not read the thread beyond the first page, but Solo’s point about evolution is also kind of silly. We evolved to be very flexible, that’s why we (and other omnivores) are successful. So whilst we can eat meat, we can still survive when we don’t. Although I’m not sure how well we’d do in the wild without hunting.

In response to the question ‘why do we have meat with every meal’ – because it’s yummy, satisfying and nutritious perhaps?

When it is pretty obvious to even the most dumb assed of people that animals also eat grain

Really? All of them?

This is an interesting point actually, that I’ve not seen dealt with properly. We have all heard the stat about meat taking seven times more grain than if you just ate the grain in the first place, but there’s a few problems with that:

1) They are always talking about the US where the vast majority of beef is intensively farmed grain-fed beef. What about lambs roaming the Welsh hills or grass-fed beef? Some articles grudgingly admit that that ‘might be better’. Also the one paper I saw that mentioned different kids of meat said that chicken was far less grain intensive per kg of meat.

2) You can’t just replace someone’s portion of meat with one of grain, they’d end up protein deficient. You’d have to compare growing grain with growing legumes and whatnot, and keeping animals for dairy and eggs too.

Those aren’t rebuttals btw, if anyone has any better studies than the ones I found, please re-post. I’m genuinely interested.

Paul McCartney is just about the most annoying person alive today. Anyone listening to him is surely an eegit?

I like meat, I like vegetarian food. I also think that Paul McCartney should perhaps use his vast fortune to attempt to fly a hot air balloon into the center of the sun.

However, its widely accepted that an optimal diet for Humans, requires meat.

You know, I’ve noticed something on STW.

Whenever someone states “it is widely accepted that…” or variations on that theme such as “everyone knows” or “it’s obvious to anyone with half a brain”, it’s pretty much always followed with a random ‘fact’ the poster has just pulled out of their arse with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Bit daft to make comparisons about inteligence across species!

Ah so meat only makes certain species clever but not others – thank god we are off the daft stuff now 😉
The point was meat made us “clever”. If it does then all animals who eat meat would be clever.
There is no control so its not really a testable statement

Must be cooked meat that does it JY.

Here we go, same ole, same old.

I can’t help but wonder about some folk when they honestly think I’d write a post, containing just made-up stuff. Please don’t judge me by your standards. Making stuff up might be for some. I don’t waste my time with it. Thanks.

A diet mostly of plants. We certainly didn’t evolve to need the vast quantites of meat we typically consume in prosperous countries.
Please don’t put words into my mouth. I’m not saying anyone should eat vast quanities of meat[/i]
Have you heard of the inuit ?. Not many plants available to them for ages past. This hasn’t stopped them hunting very big fish and subsisting mostly on, err, meat and fat !.

Solo’s point about evolution is also kind of silly
Very disappointed with that Molgrips. You refuse to accept the observations of experts in their field (not me), wrt evolution because it doesn’t suit your lifestyle. I’d call that silly, but then I won’t cos I don’t want to come down to your level. Sorry.
Your post is also a reading a post, ‘Fail’. Here.
You:
We evolved to be very flexible, that’s why we (and other omnivores) are successful.

Me:
This demonstrates the flexibility that has evolved in the Human body, in order to give us the best chances of survival. In accordance with our surroundings and the foods sources available therein.

So, ^^^ you’re repeating what I posted, that we are flexible, adaptable to whatever food source may be available, within reason.
Oh, and, no !, don’t eat the sand, you don’t know where its been !.

I’m genuinely interested
Not going to get too far though, calling people silly

So, I’m out. Have fun, kids.
😉

Ah so meat only makes certain species clever but not others

We’re not really suggesting meat is in fact a magic potion that will turn any old animal into the world’s dominant species. That would be really stupid, wouldn’t it? At the risk of being offensive, for someone who was so keen on the scientific method on the religion thread you aren’t really doing it justice.

What we (and many anthropologists) are saying is that as humans were evolving dietary factors allowed evolution stimulated by OTHER factors to progress rapidly and successfully.

According to Alice Roberts (iirc) current thinking is that it was the high availability of omega fatty acids from shellfish and sea food that allowed the species to evolve a big brain.

So it seems unlikely we’d have evolved such high intelligence without eating lots of meat and animal products in our evolutionary history.

And in any case, it would seem to me that meat eating animals do tend to be a bit more intelligent and advanced than vegetarians. Herbivores spend most of their time wandering around eating grass and leaves. Meat eaters (omnis and carnis) have to be more intelligent to trap the herbivores, and they tend not to have to do it all the time which means they can spend their time lounging around in the sun, relaxing, arguing with each other, playing, learning to hunt, learning to use tools and evolving into sentient beings.

However this is a moot point, since now that we ARE evolved and can farm the stuff we need to live on, do we still need to eat meat? The answer is no.

Very disappointed with that Molgrips. You refuse to accept the observations of experts in their field (not me), wrt evolution because it doesn’t suit your lifestyle.

Wot?

And I did see your previous post after I posted. I did warn you I hadn’t read the whole thread.

Please don’t judge me by your standards

OOh get her …there will be tons of research coming then in the next bit
How disappointing he seems to have a point.

You refuse to accept the observations of experts in their field (not me),

We refuse to accept your assertion and your further assertion that its not you but ill defined “experts in their field” [ its a better pun that it is a point]
When explaining it can you reference the control group for me please
If meat makes you clever then the inuits should be brighter than us or Indians who have a high % of veggies [ happy its not across species Molly]- do you really think this will be the case?
As for the “causes” of intelligence there are tons of guesses about why we are intelligent and none are that testable and all from “experts”.

To be fair it not amongst the worst ones

I’d call that silly, but then I won’t cos I don’t want to come down to your level. Sorry.

Moral High Ground Fail.

There weren’t anywhere near enough emoticons in Solo’s posts. Have another burger (hand minced Tesco’s finest Fillet de Cheval) mate.

alex222 – Member

Paul McCartney is just about the most annoying person alive today. Anyone listening to him is surely an eegit?

I like meat, I like vegetarian food. I also think that Paul McCartney should perhaps use his vast fortune to attempt to fly a hot air balloon into the center of the sun.

I would just like to applaud Alex’s sentiments there 😀

Thanks; I’m glad someone noticed.

Making stuff up might be for some. I don’t waste my time with it. Thanks.

Cite your sources then, back up what you’re saying.

At the risk of being offensive, for someone who was so keen on the scientific method on the religion thread you aren’t really doing it justice.

Doing it better justice than you wer eon that thread

What we (and many anthropologists) are saying is that as humans were evolving dietary factors allowed evolution stimulated by OTHER factors to progress rapidly and successfully.

I know my point being its the OTHER FACTORS which are causal – perhaps meat helped perhaps it did not but it is obvious eating meat alone does not make a human or any other species clever

According to Alice Roberts (iirc) current thinking is that it was the high availability of omega fatty acids from shellfish and sea food that allowed the species to evolve a big brain.

Big size of brain does not = intelligence both within humans and across species. If i say it again will you remember 😉

So it seems unlikely we’d have evolved such high intelligence without eating lots of meat and animal products in our evolutionary history.

I would not say this and I dont think the evidince supports it
Without a non meat eating control of the same population its fairly meaningless. Other primates shared our diet but remained dumb.

Meat eaters (omnis and carnis) have to be more intelligent to trap the herbivores,

Not sure tbh

and they tend not to have to do it all the time which means they can spend their time lounging around in the sun, relaxing, arguing with each other, playing, learning to hunt, learning to use tools and evolving into sentient beings.

I agree you will likely be an Apex predator if you become bright for the reasons you mention

cougar liked your long post especially the bit about letting others do the “wet processes”. For me if you can’t face watching or being involved with the slaughter process you should not be eating meat.

You also wrote this later

“Purely from a land perspective, it’s more efficient to let animals eat crops and then eat animals. If the whole world was vegetarian, we wouldn’t have the farmland to feed everybody”

Have you any source for that?

it is obvious eating meat alone does not make a human or any other species clever

Yes, and it’s so bloody obvious there’s no point in saying it really

I would not say this and I dont think the evidince supports it
… Other primates shared our diet but remained dumb.

Ok well this is a valid point. But again I’m not saying eating meat MADE us clever, it ALLOWED us to evolve to be clever. And it’s not just my theory.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120420105539.htm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/lives-the-brain/201001/was-seafood-brain-food-in-human-evolution

Without a non meat eating control of the same population its fairly meaningless.

Well maybe there’s a reason for that. Perhaps herbivores diet is so poor that they don’t have the spare capacity to evolve? I dunno, but here’s my off the cuff list of intelligent/ creatures – feel free to add:

Chimps: omni
Gorlias: herbi (but apparently lots of insects and rarely meat, so they have the ability)
Orang-Utans: not sure
Dolphins: fish
Whales: fish/seafood
Bears: omni
Racoons: omni
Crows: omni
Pigs: omni
Dogs: carni
Cats: carni
Otters: fish
Elephants: herbi
Octopi: fish/seafood

Lots of meat in that list, and the top three (people, chimps, dolphins) are all meat eaters.

“Purely from a land perspective, it’s more efficient to let animals eat crops and then eat animals. If the whole world was vegetarian, we wouldn’t have the farmland to feed everybody”

I think that’s wrong actually, but it might depend on how you feed your meat. There’s plenty of land in the UK that’s not suitable for crops but IS suitable for rearing meat. Dunno about the rest of the world.

It stinks of passive aggressiveness in here.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4GAuuBbb3w[/video]

Tee Hee.

Yes, and it’s so bloody obvious there’s no point in saying it really

you would think wouldn’t you but i have also had to point out size of brain does not equal intelligence.

I’m not saying eating meat MADE us clever, it ALLOWED us to evolve to be clever. And it’s not just my theory

I know what you are saying and know what the research says
i remained unconvinced for the reasons stated.
there are other suggested causes apart from diet and all lack a control and are nothing more than guesses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence#Models

All the “brightest” will be top predators so therefor ethey will all eat meat but agian i dont think it is causal – your time to chill argument for example

McCartney came over as a gentlemanhobby farmer. It’s handy to have a big pot of money to support your wool producing pets, a luxury that upland sheep farmers don’t have. If they don’t sell the meat they go bust and the habitat becomes degraded/non-productive which our small island can ill afford.

I apologise for going back on-topic.

Is the bar still open Captain or have you called time?

You also wrote this later

“Purely from a land perspective, it’s more efficient to let animals eat crops and then eat animals. If the whole world was vegetarian, we wouldn’t have the farmland to feed everybody”

Have you any source for that?

Hoist by my own petard. That’s a very good question.

Not one that I can readily quote, I’m afraid. I read it in Wired a while back, they ran a story hypothesizing what would happen if the world went veggie. One of the conclusions they drew was that we (globally) didn’t have the suitable arable land to grow enough food to sustain the population directly.

I suppose it’s entirely likely that they were wrong, and equally likely that I’m not remembering it accurately; but I’d trust Wired’s articles over, say, Hello magazine.