If you want to see if the diets are bad for you have a look at eskimos diets as they are similar to the atkins diet. There should be various studies on this.

How dare you come on here with your peer-reviewed studies, TrickyDisco! Can’t you just agree with TJ’s nuanced view of the evidence? 🙂

Human metabolism and diet is a fascinating area of study, particularly when it comes to potential improvements in insulin sensitivity, cholesterol and inflammatory markers in some of the patients with chronic conditions who most need an effective intervention, and are most likely to cost the taxpayer a fortune in medication, other treatments and care.

Adherence is always going to be the problem long term though. But I suppose that’s the issue with a lot of diets, and at least ketogenic has the advantage of appearing to show dramatic results early on through water loss which will undoubtedly improve mood, encourage exercise etc.

It is fascinating yes, and complex. There are many ways to shift fat, some work better for some people than others, and some work better short term or long term, sometimes you need multiple methods, some methods overlap. What works for you will depend on a wide variety of factors like genetics, psychology, lifestyle, exercise habits, fitness and so on.

E.g. for me, I ride too hard which depletes glycogen, which triggers eating. Partly that’s innate; partly it’s because I live in a steep hilly area and I’m heavy, so it’s required, and partly because whilst I could ride steadily if I went road riding I just don’t enjoy road as much.

If you want to see if the diets are bad for you have a look at eskimos diets as they are similar to the atkins diet. There should be various studies on this.

A perfect example of why most (if not all) diet studies are flawed – they fail to adequately account for other lifestyle differences in the participant groups.

Do they? I think scientists are quite aware of this and I seem to remember it being taken into account reasonably often.

The main weakness in longditudinal diet studies is the reporting of diet/exercise – despite the care with which you manage them, it doesn’t take many participants slightly misremembering or misrecording their intake, or being economical with the truth, to significantly skew the results.

So the results have to be treated with caution, particularly in ketogenic diets where very small changes in carbohydrate intake can make the difference between ketosis and no ketosis.

Low carb is fine. Atkins or keto is not.
They are not the same

Keto in morbidly obese is different from keto in overweight

You’re going to have to come up with some studies to support your last post TJ. Stick to ketogenic diets – that’s what we’re talking about here. Atkins has some similarities, but is a different delicious can of worms.

No problem martin. Its an area of fast moving changes to the medical consensus diet / obesity and nutrition. I am suprised you used such old research.

Many of the studies I have read come back to the ” results are unclear, more research needed. The main issues are around raised lipid levels, non alcoholic fatty liver disease and electrolyte imbalance. On all 3 results are contradictory.

One of the key things with any weight loss programme is that it needs to l;ead to sustainable adn lifelong dietary and lifestyle changes. One of the key things that again come out of what I read is beneficial effects from ketogenic diets are short lived. Its not a sustyainable lifestyule to live on a ketogenic diet.

Very interesting stuff around diabetics and also epileptics as well

If you have high risk factors for other reasons ( morbid obesity, poorly controlled diabetes, etc) then the small rise in cardivascular risk from Keto diets may well be outrweighed by the benefits of losing weight / contooling your diabetes better.

Slightl;y dubious source.https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/5/517 However its a review of other data / studies so assuming not too much cherry picking 😉
The treatment of obesity and cardiovascular diseases is one of the most difficult and important challenges nowadays. Weight loss is frequently offered as a therapy and is aimed at improving some of the components of the metabolic syndrome. Among various diets, ketogenic diets, which are very low in carbohydrates and usually high in fats and/or proteins, have gained in popularity. Results regarding the impact of such diets on cardiovascular risk factors are controversial, both in animals and humans, but some improvements notably in obesity and type 2 diabetes have been described. Unfortunately, these effects seem to be limited in time. Moreover, these diets are not totally safe and can be associated with some adverse events. Notably, in rodents, development of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) and insulin resistance have been described. The aim of this review is to discuss the role of ketogenic diets on different cardiovascular risk factors in both animals and humans based on available evidence.
…………………….
Based on the available literature, KD may be associated with some improvements in some cardiovascular risk factors, such as obesity, type 2 diabetes and HDL cholesterol levels, but these effects are usually limited in time. As KD are often rich in fats, some negative effects could happen. Mainly in rodents, developments of NAFLD and insulin resistance were described. In humans, insulin resistance is also a potential negative effect, but some studies have shown improvements in insulin sensitivity. Nevertheless, many subjects contemplating such diets are overweight or obese at baseline, and even a moderate weight loss could be metabolically beneficial for them. However, it is mandatory to maintain body weight after weight loss, which is usually a major problem. More studies are therefore warranted to better assess the effects of long term use of KD on metabolic diseases and cardiovascular risk factors, but also to better define which dietary macronutrient composition is optimal.
Edit – clicked sumbit tooo soon – more coming!

More

This review looks quite good
Our findings suggest that the beneficial changes of LC diets must be weighed against the possible detrimental effects of increased LDL-cholesterol.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/effects-of-lowcarbohydrate-diets-v-lowfat-diets-on-body-weight-and-cardiovascular-risk-factors-a-metaanalysis-of-randomised-controlled-trial/B8FBAC51C156D8CAB189CF0B14FB2A46

a bit old as well

Low-carbohydrate, non–energy-restricted diets appear to be at least as effective as low-fat, energy-restricted diets in inducing weight loss for up to 1 year. However, potential favorable changes in triglyceride and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol values should be weighed against potential unfavorable changes in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol values when low-carbohydrate diets to induce weight loss are considered.https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/409791

This is an old and may now be supeceeded cochrane style review in 2003 NOt hugely keen on the source either
there is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for or against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among participants older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20 g/d or less of carbohydrates. Among the published studies, participant weight loss while using low-carbohydrate diets was principally associated with decreased caloric intake and increased diet duration but not with reduced carbohydrate content. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-789x.2012.01021.x

Electrolytes?

This one was looking at long term ketogenesis in younger people

the maintenance of optimal fluid electrolyte and mineral status is the key to the prevention of arrhythmias during ketogenic diet. All modern ketogenic diets include adequate hydration and sodium supplementation as a part of their protocol. Micro-nutrient adequacy, especially of selenium, should also be ensured by supplementation. Current screening guidelines call for estimation of baseline and follow-up selenium levels every 3 months during the first year of ketogenic diet, along with recommended daily allowance of selenium supplementation (30 mcg/day).18Since life-threatening arrhythmias may be a reflection of selenium deficiency, we recommend routine screening of ECG prolongation of QT or electric instability at baseline and every 3 months. This frequency is concordant with the guidance related to selenium monitoring. Careful screening and monitoring of symptoms of arrhythmia must be included in the medical supervision of ketogenic diet. ECGs should also be carried out whenever unexplained symptoms occur.Drugs which may cause QT prolongation or precipitate arrhythmias must be avoided or taken under close supervision. These simple measures should help ensure that the benefits of a ketogenic diet are achieved, while ensuring electrocardiac safety.

https://www.touchcardio.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/12/private_articles_23008_pdf_EJAE_4.2_p51-52_0.pdf

Shall we just agree on Keto diets area good way of reducing weight in morbidly obese people and can have benefits for diabetics and epileptics

However they are not without risk and close medical supervision may be required

?

Shall we just agree on Keto diets area good way of reducing weight in morbidly obese people and can have benefits for diabetics and epileptics

However they are not without risk and close medical supervision may be required

This seems more reasonable and nuanced than your previous effort 🙂

keto and atkins are not recommended by healthcare professionals as its an incredibly poor and unhealthy diet increasing your risk of stroke, heart attack etc.

Interestingly, we are starting to see ketogenic diets being tentatively endorsed by both the NHS and RCGP.

The studies you link are not without their difficulty. While the mouse one (which is pretty much the only one with evidence of problems) seems alarming, I’m not sure how much you can draw from evidence from a rodent metabolism. Also the duration of diet was the equivalent of several years in humans. I’m sure that even I would be in a shit state after living on double cream, coconut oil and cauliflower for that long.

The human ones seem, on balance, more encouraging than discouraging, particularly in morbidly obese, with potential benefits for less overweight people and even those at a healthy weight which may have to be balanced against possible harms if the diet is followed long term.

As you say though, more research and a cautious approach required. But given the threat to individuals, public services and our economy from the epidemic of overeating, anything which has the potential to lessen this burden and improve people’s lives should be taken seriously rather than written off as unhealthy because it is counterintuitive compared to mainstream calorie reduction diets.

The whole business of fasting and ketosis is a whole new way of looking at weight loss.

Personally I think Fructose is probably the most important factor from what I have read recently.

martinhutch – just found this which is rather damning

The news stems from a large, long-term Swedish study of women aged 30 to 49, looking at their diets and whether they developed cardiovascular disease. Researchers wanted to understand the long-term effects of low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets. They found that proportional decreases in carbohydrate intake and increases in protein intake were associated with a small increase in the risk of cardiovascular disease such as heart attack and stroke.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/heart-and-lungs/heart-risk-from-low-carb-high-protein-diets/

Given the risk known about and poor results longterm from this sort of diet this is why it is not mainstream advice, is not advised by dietitians / NHS in the UK and why it needs to be done under medical supervision.

For those a bit overweight the risks outweigh the advnatages

The whole business of fasting

As James Smith would say. Calorie reduction is calorie reduction how ever you package it.

Likewise. He would commend your skipping of breakfast if it makes you feel good.

I’ve been doing a moderate Keto diet for 4 yrs approx. Mainly to keep a genetic predisposition for type 2 diabetes at bay. It has been refined over the years to try and get a balance between providing energy for my rides and controlling blood sugar levels. Not an easy balance. Loosing the weight is the easy bit. In the main it’s a lot of veg with the exception of potatoes, lean meat and fish and some dairy, mainly eggs with a bit of Greek yogurt. I don’t eat white carbs at all as a general rule of thumb. It kind of works but can get a bit tedious at times. You can loose weight scarily quickly. I lost 5 stone in a matter of months. Finding a balance to maintain it is the hard bit.

just found this which is rather damning

I think damning is also probably a touch of hyperbole about a study with such a small effect recorded. Particularly a self-reported single submission diet study which did not focus specifically on any type of diet we’re discussing (high fat low carb ketogenic), but Atkins-like diets instead (low carb high protein)

Apart from that, a bullseye for your Google-fu.

You don’t need high levels of any one food group. There is no magic solution. Plenty of fruit and veg, a bit of protein and some healthy fats. Reduce the processed element of your diet as much as is possible including refined carbs. Loose weight, stay healthy, live longer maybe!

Paton – see the vid with the woman dressed in “my first doctor” outfit – a sure givaway its a load of bunkum.

Edit – indeed a convicted felon, an osteopath thus a snake oil seller. No credibility

Just a kind of related question here…

If you’re on a low carb diet, what kind of food do you go for with regards breakfast? Something relatively quick, easy and enough to keep you going for a 17 mile commute on the bike.

Any suggestions?

You don;t need the food to keep you going, the point is to use fat.

Either eggs for me or a handful of Asda Fruit Nut and Seed mix. Just get quick at making eggs.

For breakfast it’s mainly porridge that’s a mix of bran, oats, pumpkin, chia and sunflower seeds with a few strawberries and blueberries. It’s slow release energy that keeps me going until lunchtime. If not porridge a 3 egg omelette.

The idea is to burn body fat for energy not process carbs for energy. Only problem is it takes me a few miles to get going but once the process has started I can fuel myself much longer over a ride than if I carb up. You will find that you require much less fluid over a ride as one of the requirements of hydrating when carbed up is so your body can process the carbs. One of the by products of burning fat for fuel is water.

As James Smith would say. Calorie reduction is calorie reduction how ever you package it.

except for the fact different biochemical and metabolic processes happen when you consume different types of calories. A calorie is a the measurement of the amount of heat required at a pressure of 1 standard atmosphere to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1° Celsius. Do you really think that works perfectly in the body? Petrol has 1000’s of calories in it 🙂

What low carb, keto, atkins, idave, 4 hour body and fasting follow is the carbohydrate-insluin model that is working with the metabolic and hormone processes in the body. At it’s simplest If your insulin is high, it’s going to trap fat in your fat cells and prevent other cells in your body from oxidizing it. If you drop your insulin levels, you’re going to release this fat from the fat cells and your lean tissue is going to want to take it up and burn it. When that happens, your energy expenditure is going to increase. Mobilizing fat and burning it is the cause. The extra calories burned, the increase in expenditure – what we all think of as the metabolic advantage – is the consequence.

The calories in, calories out approach disregards decades of research demonstrating that body weight is controlled more by biology than will power over the long-term. With calorie deprivation, the body fights back in predictable ways — including increasing hunger, slowing metabolism, and secretion of stress hormones. These hallmarks of the starvation response make long-term weight loss by calorie restriction exceeding difficult to maintain.

This isn’t highly scientific but interesting experiment of eating 5000 calories a day of High Fat, low carb for 21 days

Why I Didn’t Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day Of A High Fat Diet

and the high carb version

Why I DID Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day Of A High Carb Diet

Inbred456

Member

The idea is to burn body fat for energy not process carbs for energy. Only problem is it takes me a few miles to get going but once the process has started I can fuel myself much longer over a ride than if I carb up. You will find that you require much less fluid over a ride as one of the requirements of hydrating when carbed up is so your body can process the carbs. One of the by products of burning fat for fuel is water.

^This.

Done a bit if an experiment over last few weeks. Completely and totally cut out refined carbs – so zero cakes, biscuits, chocolate etc. etc. On rest days, I’m reducing carbs, so trying to breakfast on eggs not porridge. Completely cut booze out too. Latter bit is possibly not permanent, but the overall effects are profound; lost about 1kg (was not ‘fat’ beforehand) and all of it seems to have come off stomach and hips, which is where I deposit weight and, according to a lot of health studies, is not ‘good’. Energy levels through day are much, much steadier and hunger does not seem as acute either. I feel a lot more clear-headed throughout the whole day.

On a ride is probably the biggest issue; first 15 to 20 minutes or so are very tough. I could give up, sometimes on evening rides, even feel drowsy (which is not ideal), but then by 30 mins in, everything is pretty steady. I don’t think I can hit peak hill climb efforts/heart rates that I did previously, but the energy levels stay pretty steady throughout.

Some good science about fueling exercise with fat: https://www.peakendurancesport.com/endurance-training/base-endurance-training/fat-burning-using-body-fat-instead-carbohydrates-fuel/