Light brightness – beyond safe

I did a search but couldn’t find a simlar thread.

I’ve a set of mtbbatteries.com trail lights as I often commute home on unlit country roads. They have 4 settings of which the second is normally enough with the 4th visible from Mars.

they’ve also got a ridiculous flashing mode which reflects from road signs 200m away and has drivers sheilding their eyes.

Now i don’t currently run the flashing mode in town as I am worried a driver coming the other direction will have a fit or something, but when i did it really worked, evryone saw me and car drivers really would wait before pulling out. I never got cut up either. No i don’t run it i am aware of the drivers who will take a chance and pull out right in front of me.

So here’s my question, where do you draw the line, or should i take the opinion that some inconvenience to car drivers is offset by my vulnrability?

S

So here’s my question, where do you draw the line, or should i take the opinion that some inconvenience to car drivers is offset by my vulnrability?

Driver blinded = big chance of getting run over.
Illuminate your path, inform others of your presence. That is it.

Should it not be ok if it’s angled at the road ?
I had to stop last night when a rider coming the other way on the cyclepath had their light set at eyeball height 🙄

Some lights are so bright I think they are a safety issue for drivers as you feel almost blinded.

It’s gone too far IMO – brightest does not necessarily equal best.

It is not legal to dazzle other road users, I had the reference somewhere but it is not at hand right now.

Bike lights still aren’t (usually) as bright as car lights so the brightness isn’t the problem. It’s where they’re pointing, particularly for helmet mounted ones. I only use a bar mounted light and always point it down when riding around cars.

I think my bike lights are thermonuclear but from behind the wheel of a car they’re not actually as bright as one might think.

On a normal urban road unless it’s very narrow there’s a fair old gap between a car and a bicycle on the other side of the road and although bike lights can be insanely bright they are also incredibly small and so no where near as dazzling as a badly-adjusted car headlight for example.

I don’t ride on the road but I always read threads like this one with interest because I am that bloke in the car. If you really want to be seen on a bike, brightness and/or lots of twinkling LEDs are not the answer. You need a big light (like a motorbike) front and rear

It’s a tricky one. On one hand, if I’m on a skinny road bike and hitting 25 mph+ down a Peak hill, I want to be able to see the potholes.

On the other, I’m regularly blinded by night-riding mountain bikers and roadies around the peak when I’m in the car. On a mountain bike I always have my ‘proper’ lights on the lowest settings and pointed at the ground/shielded by my hands.

I’d also disagree that they’re less blinding than a car headlamp, possible due to the angle they point at, especially if there are a few of you. We’ve virtually forced oncoming cars to a halt (by mistake when forgetting to dim lights) when nightriding in a group of 4/5.

i’d have to agree with cynic-al and clubber.
my c&b seen light also has a flash mode, but running this gives me a headache so i dread to think what it would do to others!!

Don’t understand the “if they’re too bright they’ll dazzle drivers” argument. Might be that I’m unique in not instinctively running over a bike with a bright light but I’ve never been dazzled by a bike light. I think if someone is they probably need an eye test.

I appreciate it if someone has insanely bright lights and it’s easy to see the extra space they’re given by drivers.

Prop your bike up with the lights in flash mode, stand ten metres in front of the bike and crouch down so that you’re at driver-eye height.

Dazzling? If yes then there’s a problem.

Just had an eye test, 20/20 and no problems, thanks. No, wait, 0.25 longsighted in one eye.

Still getting dazzled.

It’s not a question of not hitting a bright light, it’s a question of hardly being able to see anything immediately after a group of six or so riders have gone the other way with their bar and helmet lights on full beam.

It’s a tricky one. On one hand, if I’m on a skinny road bike and hitting 25 mph+ down a Peak hill, I want to be able to see the potholes.

On the other, I’m regularly blinded by night-riding mountain bikers and roadies around the peak when I’m in the car.

It’s not that tricky: what we need is better bike lights. Ones which put the light on the road, and not in people’s eyes. We have strict regulations for dipped car lights. Bike lights are quickly getting to be in the same ball park as car lights in terms of brightness, but there are virtually none that would meet the rules that we impose on cars.

I don’t think they are too bright/dazzling on the road, but on my local cyclepath where you are passing people going in the other direction at a distance of 2 feet, they are definitely a problem.

It’s not that tricky: what we need is better bike lights. Ones which put the light on the road, and not in people’s eyes.

are you serious?
Point the light down more………………………

it’s the pointing in the eyes that’s the problem, not brightness. Head mounted lights are the worst

are you serious?
Point the light down more………………………

not as silly as you think. Bike lights project simple round patterns which means you lose a lot of their effectiveness when you point them down. Car lights have a shaped beam which is quite flat and angles upwards to the nearside.

If you made bike lights similar with more of a cut off at the top then when the brightest bit is pointed looking at the road you would have less chance of blinding people coming towards you.

are you serious?
Point the light down more………………………

That helps but it’s not the same. A proper ‘shaped’ beam like from a Philips saferide has a low looking lumen count but is really usable and attention grabbing without being dazzling.

A much brighter (on paper) ‘unshaped’ light might not give much better illumination but is more of a nuisance for other people.

The biggest problem with LED’s in general is that the beam is conical so, no matter where you point it, there will always be a certain amount of dazzle due to the beam shape. Yes there are tighter optics etc but, unless you have some sort of shield to cut off the top of the beam, you’ll shine light along way down the road (even if you point your light down) .
Due to me having a 7.5k lumen bar light I use a small Lezyne front light for road sections..

So I guess the main topic of the thread is that for road riding we need a bright shaped beam which can illuminate the road ahead and potholes as well as giving visibility. For off-road you need all round vision to dodge low branches.

So if I keep my trail lights for the trail what lights should I consider for the road which will illuminate the road far enough ahead, make me visible to cars, have a decent battery life etc.?

Suggetions?

I was thinking of using a ‘frosted’ plastic milk bottle or similar to build a shield/visor for my magicshine type LED light on the road bike.

Not sure if it’ll work, but hopefully it’ll allow a sharper cut off at the top like a car headlight instead of a round beam profile, so it can be further upwards without dazzling. As a bonus, hopefully it will add a much more visible side profile (by lighting up the plastic itself).

On the road I use a B&M Lumotec 60 lux light, beam is directed at the ground and still very visible to drivers without being dazzling.

Hopefully all lights will be as good one day!

I don’t think it’s that simple tbh. My road lights definitely have the ability to dazzle, if I let them. But at the same time, they could be brighter and still be useful. So it’s not like there’s a single safe/unsafe sliding scale, there’ll be a point where you’re getting safer in some ways and less safe in others. And that’ll vary depending on the current traffic, the roads you’re on, visibility etc.

So with that sort of thing, I just use what seems like common sense, because I don’t think I can do any better.

So if I keep my trail lights for the trail what lights should I consider for the road which will illuminate the road far enough ahead, make me visible to cars, have a decent battery life etc.?

B&M, Philips, basically any of the high power german lights that meet StVZO.

Or as an alternative, get a cheaper StVZO light, and because it meets german regs it is totally legal in the UK, then get something brighter to act as a dip and main combo.

Or as an alternative, get a cheaper StVZO light, and because it meets german regs it is totally legal in the UK, then get something brighter to act as a dip and main combo replace the LED(s) with some f’off bright ones and see how that works

If I had the time I’d be doing that
If I was troutie or one of his ilk I’d be investigating that

retro83 – Member
I was thinking of using a ‘frosted’ plastic milk bottle or similar to build a shield/visor for my magicshine type LED light on the road bike.

Like this?

Not quite as effective as I thought. If you imagine a cone of light coming from the led itself, the shroud needs to be quite a bit longer to cut much of the top of the beam off. optics would be a better solution, but a bit pricier, I’d imagine.

You’ve also got quite a distracting bright light under your face.

It does give more light out sideways though.

v2 is slightly folded down at the front and has some black electrical tape on the top surface to reduce the faceshine.

So if I keep my trail lights for the trail what lights should I consider for the road which will illuminate the road far enough ahead, make me visible to cars, have a decent battery life etc.?

I’ve just bought a Philips Saferide for road riding because I got tired of having to either tilt my light down every time a car came along or sticking my hand over the lens to stop it dazzling drivers. It’s pretty good, not super powerful, but the light goes where you need it, on the road and there’s a really sharp cut-off to stop you dazzling oncoming traffic.

The battery life isn’t amazing – there are four rechargeable AAs inside which you can charge with USB – about two hours on full chat. Plus it’s heavy and ugly, but it works. I’m going to mod it to run off an external battery to increase run time and probably up the brightness slightly too – just like the good old days of modding Lumi halogens to use LEDs… I run an additional Joystick as a main beam partly because the spot is narrow enough that there’s less spill if you do angle it down.

On mountain bike rides with some road, I stick an additional Joystick mount on the bars and use that well angled down on road sections, then stick it back on my helmet off road.

I also frequently run a Joystick in flashing mode on the road bike during the day in low visibility conditions and a flashing rear LED as well, particularly on faster roads.

I don’t think it’s just about whether badly directed, spilly, bright lights are ‘dangerous’ or not, they’re dazzling and unpleasant for other road users and a lot of cyclists seem oblivious to the discomfort we’re inflicting on others.

If you dazzle a driver, there’s a good chance they will hit something or someone else due to being temporarily blind. I know when I’m driving I hate super bright strobes.

nedrapier – Member

Like this?

Not quite as effective as I thought. If you imagine a cone of light coming from the led itself, the shroud needs to be quite a bit longer to cut much of the top of the beam off. optics would be a better solution, but a bit pricier, I’d imagine.

You’ve also got quite a distracting bright light under your face.

It does give more light out sideways though.

v2 is slightly folded down at the front and has some black electrical tape on the top surface to reduce the faceshine.

Yes exactly like that, and i was also thinking gaffer tape to cover the top part of the light to reduce glare.

You’re probably right that optics would be a better solution. Does such a thing exist and fit (or can be made to fit) these lights?

I bought one of the C and B Seen diffuser lenses for my generic chinese LED lamp.

It does diffuse the light better than the stock flat lens but still doesn’t have the same effect as a decent reflector/lens would.
I also have only once run my lamp on main, dip is plenty powerful enough.
With a good lens and reflector you don’t need hugely powerful bulbs/LEDs. To continue with the motorbike example used earlier, look at the difference between an OE 7″ lamp and a good quality aftermarket unit like Cibié or PIAA, still 7″ diameter but far better use of the light available.

are you serious?
Point the light down more………………………

Quite serious. There’s a reason why dipped car beams don’t look anything like a round beam pointed down a bit.

I used to use a not-very-bright-by-modern-standards MTB light, and even pointed down to the point that it wasn’t very useful to me, it was still clearly annoying to pedestrians, and presumably to drivers.

Or as an alternative, get a cheaper StVZO light, and because it meets german regs it is totally legal in the UK, then get something brighter to act as a dip and main combo replace the LED(s) with some f’off bright ones and see how that works

Some one did this with a Philips light. The problem is that the f’off bright LEDs (Cree XM-Ls) are a bigger source than the stock LEDs which makes the cut-off less sharp.

I think the new XP-G2s might be better, but tbh, because the optics don’t spill half the lumens into the trees, you can get away with much less light.

I always prefer a brighter rear light to be honest rather than a stupidly bright front. Although if you angle it down to the road say 5-10m in front that should mean you are easily seen without blinding on coming traffic?

I’ve just bought a Philips Saferide for road riding […] I’m going to mod it to run off an external battery to increase run time […]

BadlyWiredDog; IIRC, pdw has done this- worth a pm/email?

I have both SafeRides (dynamo & battery) & agree with your comments on weight & run time on the battery version.

I think people feel compelled to stare into bright bike lights, and then comment on their brightness. Not sure why.

🙄

I’ve ridden on the roads with 4 trail lights (2000lm a pop) Crazy bright. i have black plastic hood on them for the made out of black pvc heated up and formed into hoods. Then banded on. 8000lm doesn’t dazzle them.

I use 8000lm for trail riding btw. Overkill? nah i ride **** fast on the trails at night. So the next time you see a car driving down the trails. That would be me.