I know but say in Ben’s final heat all of the runners were chemical – who is he cheating? He was the only one though.

Actually Carl lewis was caught, and the American Athletics/doping authorities covered it up.

hora – Member
The sad thing is … the punishment was over-drastic and almost vindictive.

Have you seen the list of charges? He was not given a retrospective lifetime ban just for doping himself. It has to be viewed in the context of systematic team doping over many years.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

Actually Carl lewis was caught

Don’t remember that. Got a link? I mostly remember Lewis campaigning hard to prove others were cheating.

Don’t remember that. Got a link? I mostly remember Lewis campaigning hard to prove others were cheating.

It is mentioned in the Guardian article linked by loum.

On this point that everyone was doing it so no one lost out, this is overly simplistic. If you had two equally talented athletes one with a naturally occurring hemocrit of 35% and the other with 45%, the one with the lower level would get a much bigger boost in performance by using EPO to raise his hemocrit to the “health level” of 50% set at the time by the UCI so therefore a much bigger advantage from drug use. Add to this, different riders having the financial resources to pursue more sophisticated programmes and the field has a pretty big slope even if everyone is at it.

Actually Carl lewis was caught

Don’t remember that. Got a link? I mostly remember Lewis campaigning hard to prove others were cheating.

Not quite in Ben Johnson’s league and p’raps not strictly a cover-up….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

Carl Lewis

Beaten to it

Blimey, they’re all a bunch of lying cheats these athletes. I’ll stick to rugby and boxing where no cheating goes on 😆

Not quite in Ben Johnson’s league and p’raps not strictly a cover-up…

Well depends if you accept at face value his story that he just accidentally took known and banned masking agents three times as part of a herbal remedy or not. It seems that in the US at that time it was normal to just accept any excuse given, turn a blind eye as long as America keep winning.

Of the 8, Calvin Smith of the USA finished fourth and never failed a drugs test. Robson da Silva from Brazil finished sixth and never failed a drugs test.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/gallery/2012/may/06/seoul-1988-olympic-100m-final#/?picture=389659961&index=0

Posted 59 minutes ago # Report-PostWackoAK – Member
LA Times article…

not biased what so ever..

Don’t agree it’s biased in the point it’s making. If up take the Armstrong issue away from the article it’s a good one. There are not many on here that would be happy to judged in that manner. Given that, Armstrong will always have an excuse as the system is basically unfair. To get the guilty punished any system must be fully open with set rules and the prosector/investigators can never be the judges of the case. It must be seen to be right even if that does not get us the result we think is right. If you think this could not happen in the UK have a look at the Diane Modhal case, an utter disgrace and very little has changed since then.

Any of the above does not change my view that LA probably cheated.

He’s still pretty damn awesome though: Out of all the cheats, he (allegedly) cheated much better than all the others and got away with it for the longest. Go Armstrong!

So who knows? He did win against the best who were doping though so at least he isn’t a Ben Johnson if he did dope. He is also genetically odd IMO- a very very fit fella, even now. Thats got to go someway into explaining why he was dominant when he was in his prime

Others beat me to it on Ben Johnson – There was some discussion during the Olympics coverage about the “shame” of that 100m line-up…

Secondly, the genetic thing…

Ashenden addresses these claims in his interview. His view is that there is nothing physiologically unusual about LA. In fact it is another area where LA has lied – and unusually, he has actually admitted to “lying” (misleading / being incorrect, whatever phrase…)…

The great / unnatural physiological claims are based on a high output per kg claimed after his cancer recovery, but the low bodyweight figures these are based on have subsequently been countered (by LA himself), in that he never raced as low as 72kg…

[tinfoil hat mode] The superhuman physiology story almost seems a bit a pre-spinning for his “dramatically improved” performances after cancer recovery [\tinfoil hat mode]

ETA – and if “genetic” – ie he always had it in him, how come his earlier performances were (comparatively) so poor…?

rkk01 do you hate him?

edit- removed.
nothing personal 😉

ETA – and if “genetic” – ie he always had it in him, how come his earlier performances were (comparatively) so poor…?

He was a lot heavier, almost sprinter like in build.

No but as with Clinton (who I also admire), when he came unstuck and was impeached I still saw he positives in his character.

I’d love to be as good at Triathlon and be World Road Champ with comparatively poor performances.

Actually Carl lewis was caught

So was Linford Christie…

rkk01 do you hate him?

I’m not rkk01 but…

… I don’t hate him personally but I hate what he is doing to our sport by refusing to fess up and by continuing to drag it out.

If he was clean then face the charges.

If he’s not clean but doesn’t want to have all the evidence dragged out in court then own up and take the punsihment.

Don’t just continue to be a massive douche about it.

If he was clean then face the charges.

In a fair open court with the concept ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ not what the USADA had planned.

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but the latest Velocast podcast has a very informed, unbiased view of it all. It starts from the beginning of his career, and goes through each incident in detail, it told me a lot I didn’t know about him, the UCI and the mess it all was back in the 90’s / 00s

For instance, the type of cancer Armstrong had would of created massive spikes of testosterone in his urine samples. Other athletes in different sports have been notified of this by their governing bodies, allowing them to catch the cancer early. Armstrong was not, he was racing for 6 months while he had cancer before he was diagnosed. Why didn’t the UCI act on these high levels of testosterone? One of two things; total incompetency or corruption at the highest level.

rkk01 do you hate him?

Not in the slightest.

Like many of the posters on this thread, I always admired his comeback from cancer. I was slightly incredulous when that comeback included winning TdFs, but gave the man the benefit of the doubt, even though the suspicions lurked in my mind…

At that stage his denials and anti-doping stance (as viewed from a “general public perspective) were good enough for me. [After the Indurain period I wasn’t much in to road cycling and paid little notice of the Tour, although by LA’s fifth or so my interest had been re-attracted (equalling Mig etc)]

The more time has passed, his off bike behaviour has persuaded me that there is more to this story. I’d prefer to hear the “truth”, rather than allegations and counter claims. Unfortunately LA has done more than anybody else to prevent the various lines of evidence being publicly aired for all (or a court) to evaluate.

I am a strong believer in fairness and “natural justice”. The rich and powerful using their money and influence to get others to shut up doesn’t sit well – the more of that LA has done, the more he has gone down in my estimation.

I do find the claims of a stitch up / witch hunt to be quite worrying. It really is not a case of USADA presenting an arbitration or nothing – guilty because I say so scenario.

If you don’t beleive me, then read Judge Sparks’ statement. He does criticise USADA (although they are not alone – LA and UCI were also criticised by the Judge). BUT, his conclusion was that USADA had the right jurisdiction and that they had a fair system for appropriate due process – including access to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

If LA is so distressed about a fair arbitration, why not go through the process and appeal to CAS? Surely that is why the process is in place – for all athletes… LA does not, and should not get any different treatment to others.

It seems to me that the only consistencey here is LA NOT wanting the various testimonies (ok, some tainted) and other evidence to be heard in public.

He hasn’t even been consistent in his denial of doping…

– To start with he had a very strong anti-doping stance – denied doping

– To back this up, he pursued anyone who spoke out against him, including pursuing libel cases – good on him, I would, if the statements were in fact libel (ie he hadn’t doped)

– As more information has come to light, he has stopped threatening libel action. To me that suggests he fears a loss in the courts…?

– And his PR line has changed to reflect this reduced willingness to pursue libel action… He now claims “most tested athlete” and “never failed a drugs test”, a subtley very different use of language.

So, “hater” – No, far from it

Disappointed – yes very, for the sport and for LA

Most of all, I would love to see an “honest resolution” to this.
No lynch mob justice, no cover up or shady out of court settlements…

Fair points and good counter. I see where you are coming from.

Hora, listen to the Velocast podcast. It just states what people know about Armstrong and the UCI, and what the various testimonies are etc, it’s worth a listen

In a fair open court with the concept ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ not what the USADA had planned.

It is Lance’s continued pedalling of this line that means he “continues to be a douche about it”

If he is found guilty by the USADA he can appeal to CAS. In fact if LA really is so alturistic and truely belives the USADA process if flawed then he is the best placed athlete to challenge them at CAS as he has the resources. Other falsely (sic) accused athlete all across America will thank him for breaking the corupt process.

In case it hasn’t been linked before….
[audio src="http://velocastcc.squarespace.com/storage/lancespecial.mp3" /]

I would just love it if the UCI/ASO whoever turned round and told the USADA to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine and then Lance went on to become a French hero.

I was never that fond of him but all of the goody goody sticks in the mud and the USADA wanting ‘answers’ make me like him whole lot more.

what a lovely piece of trolling 🙄

– To back this up, he pursued anyone who spoke out against him, including pursuing libel cases – good on him, I would, if the statements were in fact libel (ie he hadn’t doped)

Just to point out a common mistake – check how many cases actually went to court and of the ones that did, why Lance didn’t lose. IIRC the only case that went to court was relating to a company’s non-payment of bonuses to LA on the basis that they believed he’d cheated. The company had to settle when it became clear that the contract didn’t state anything about doping as as such, LA having met the criteria (won the tour) they had to pay out irrespective of whether he cheated or not.

Other cases have been threatened very vocally and either not persued by LA or the witnesses have backed down. At least some have stated that this was due to threats and intimidation.

I suppose if you’re going to fraud might as well do it big stylee, TDF 7 times is as big as it gets, i suppose he felt invincible, what with the best doctors, all his team junked up, and the UCI in the bag, what could go wrong— well its took until now for the thing to unravel to the point where he is snookered– many of his victims will be feeling good now, this will run for a while , i wonder if he’ll end penniless ???

He sued the times for reporting Kimmage iirc and won- they settled out of court iirc

the punishment was over-drastic and almost vindictive. It just leaves a bitter taste allround.

He cheated to win all his titles what would have been appropriate?

No but as with Clinton (who I also admire), when he came unstuck and was impeached I still saw he positives in his character

so you like drug cheats and folk who are unfaithful to their wifes with impressionable interns. This paints an excellent picture of you and it appears you have an amoral compass rather than a moral one.

The LA times link is laughablly one sided and to those claiming the USADA is not fair that is what LA claimed to judge who [ after throwing out his first draft as PR bluster and refusing to read it] decided that it was the legal organisation and he would get a fair trial.
Why you think LA can decide what is fair [ what bias are you acusing the judge of as clearly LA has an agenda] and why you buy into this idea that it is unfair is unclear to me

I guess as many have stated we all held LA up as a hero, a super human who defied the odds, overcame adversity and was untouchable as he kicked ass on a bike – who will ever forget the look?
To realise much of this was a sham is difficult for you to get but please dont clutch at straws as some of it is quite desperate

Alex if you must troll could you at least try and do a rational one?
You keep posting stuff like that and no one is biting

Re the LA times article
They do like one sided polemics over there – interestiungly the link on the article

Evidence has emerged over the years that laboratories certified by the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA, have been incompetent at analyzing athletes’ samples or fabricated results when they didn’t get the numbers they were hoping to see

This does not have any evidence to support that statement re fabricating results.
http://articles.latimes.com/print/2006/dec/11/local/la-me-doping11dec11
from the article

Earlier this year, for example, Pound suggested that former Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong had been guilty of doping in 1999. He based his comments on disputed and supposedly confidential research data compiled by WADA’s Paris lab

LA and the UCI gave permission for the data to be revelaed leading a journalist to match his samples with the ones tested in Australia

they later uses Flloyd Landis for evidence of how bad the process is and how it may give false positives
Not included are documents that might shed light on a WADA lab’s general proficiency or its treatment of other similar cases, arguably pertinent to defense questions about lab consistency or reliability.

Tygart calls the document package routinely shipped to accused athletes “fair and overly generous.” The U.S. agency generally rejects requests for further data unless the athlete “can articulate a need that’s not a fishing expedition,” he says.

USADA’s position will probably be tested by Tour de France champion Floyd Landis, who has been charged with testosterone doping in the 2006 race.

Jacobs, Landis’ attorney, submitted a 10-page request in October for documents related to the Paris WADA lab’s general experience with the testosterone screening. Landis hopes to challenge whether the French scientists “have sufficient expertise at running this test” and whether they can justify their criteria for declaring the cyclist’s sample positive.

I struggle to call that journalism it is

To all The LA fans you have my sympathies the mask has slipped for us all at some point re LA but better to cling to rationality that your dreams

what a lovely piece of trolling

It’s what I genuinely think. Was he caught? No. Leave him alone. Plus his previous boy wonder status as an all American hero made me dislike him. Now he is being chucked off is pedestal I think it makes him more of an icon. I will say it again; I think he did dope, I just don’t think it detracts from his achievements. The world is not a black and white place and people do lots of regrettable things make mistakes all the time.

Besides who will they give all the tour wins to? Ullrich, Pantani, Kloden, Zulle. Never mind all the stage wins. God sake poor guy has had testicular cancer and been disliked all his professional life (understandably) and now this.

Agree.

Was he caught? NoYes

FIFY, why don’t you do a bit of research?

alex222 – Member
God sake poor guy has had testicular cancer and been disliked all his professional life (understandably) and now this.

That has nothing to do with anything.

Was he caught? No.

what do you think the charges were if not him being caught?

I will say it again; I think he did dope, I just don’t think it detracts from his achievements.

So cheating to win does not detract from his achievements?

The world is not a black and white place and people do lots of regrettable things make mistakes all the time.

what mistakes you said he had not been caught but he doped but none of this detracts from his awesomeness though you used to hate him till he was not awesome.
I think peple have mistaken you for a troll as your posts are contradictory, confusing and make little sense

If you need further proof Hora likes them
😛
HTH

alex 222 – but that’s not really what you posted before 😉

I agree, the TdF titles shouldn’t be handed over to anyone else – unless there is a viable “clean” candidate from the previous podium places…

I also think that it is important to recognise his achievements in beating cancer and on the bike, albeit with the caveat that like most of his contemporaries, the racing achievements will now be tarnished..

As posted above, it’s the off-bike behaviour that has reduced my opinion of the man

Was he caught? NoYes[b] allegedly; but the internet is full of lots of rumors that many people take to be the truth because they want to believe it[/b]

If there was an official report in public circulation saying that he was caught then maybe he would already have been stripped of his titles.

That has nothing to do with anything

Some people say that his alleged doping caused testicular cancer which is a pretty low blow.

what mistakes you said he had not been caught but he doped but none of this detracts from his awesomeness though you used to hate him because lots of annoying Americans banged on about he was the greatest of all time and a super duper hero till he was not awesome now he has been made a villain and the same annoying Americans are ready to push him off his pedestal I kind of like him.

So cheating to win does not detract from his achievements?

Was every one else not using synthetic EPO among other performance enhancing drugs?

I shall repeat my question – who do you gift the tour/stage wins to?

Was every one else not using synthetic EPO among other performance enhancing drugs?

No only the cheats were cheating.

No only the cheats were cheating pretty much the entire peleton.