Ken Livingston

We don’t suggest that Christians are not entiled to a Christian Stats, eg Italy, Spain or Ireland.

I have no idea about Spain or Italy but while Ireland has previously been almost exclusively Christian, and of that, predominantly Catholic, it is not a “Christian State” in the way you’re implying. Its constitution forbids the state from creating an established church. It even recognises the Jewish congregations in the constitution. You’ve made this statement previously and been corrected on it. You will of course, in your wilful ignorance, make it again.

Here is an example

You can be against Israel’s policy for example in the West Bank without being anti-Zionist. Being anti-Zionist means you believe Israel should not exist and what is more that Jews have no right to a state anywhere. Unless you hold and pursue a similar agenda against all religions and peoples you are being anti-Semitic as you are only targetting Jews.

I don’t much care for Iran and it’s policies but I believe Muslims are perfectly entitled to live under Sharia Law if they choose.

the forced Palestinian exodus to make way for the Israeli state

As opposed to the mass exodus of the Jewish people to make way for the Palestinians* that would have occurred otherwise?

*So much as you could call them that, to quote the Peel Commission:
The Arab population shows a remarkable increase since 1920, and it has had some share in the increased prosperity of Palestine. Many Arab landowners have benefited from the sale of land and the profitable investment of the purchase money. The fellaheen are better off on the whole than they were in 1920. This Arab progress has been partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the National Home. In particular, the Arabs have benefited from social services which could not have been provided on the existing scale without the revenue obtained from the Jews.

I think Ken is anti-semitic you don’t bring Hitler and Jews into a conversation unless you aim to offend (plus he is wrong on his history which suggests it was deliberate).

However, I do agree that being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic.

Are you saying that if I think the forced Palestinian exodus to make way for the Israeli state was a pretty sucky state of affairs for the Palestinians I’m anti-semitic as well as anti-zionist?

Not at all. You are perfectly entitled to think that was wrong and that the League of Nations got that wrong.

At the same time as 700,000 Palestinian Arabs where forced (some say many chose) to leave the new state of Israel (British Palestine at the time) 800,000 Jews where expelled accross North Africa from Arab countries. 25% of modern Israel are Arabs, not everyone left (chose to leave). I’d also add that those 700,000 has grown to 6 million claiming refugee status today.

Got a retweet from David Baddiel today…

always quite liked him on the Mary Whitehouse experience and Skinner and Baddiel, but he went down in my estimations a bit:

Of course, the limited amount of characters on twitter can sometimes rob you of empathy and context, but even so:

(Disturbing though it may be, it’s worth questioning):

Why did Leopold von Mildenstein, one of key Nazis involved in collaboration with Zionists avoid prosecution due to work with the CIA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_von_Mildenstein

(bit in brackets is the bit that wouldn’t fit in the tweet.)

I’ll let you guess what 3 words he used…

Just. ****. Off.

❓

Good detective work 😉

That whole CIA thing bugs me though, especially with Allen Dulles’ role in ensuring continued funding of the Nazis throughout WW2 via his asset, President of the Bank of International Settlements, Thomas McKittrick

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-of-england/10213988/Never-mind-the-Czech-gold-the-Nazis-stole….html

Thomas McKittrick, an American banker, was president of the BIS. When the United States entered the war in December 1941, McKittrick’s position, the history notes, “became difficult”. But McKittrick managed to keep the bank in business, thanks in part to his friend Allen Dulles, the US spymaster based in Berne. McKittrick was an asset of Dulles, known as Codename 644, and frequently passed him information that he had garnered from Emil Puhl, who was a frequent visitor to Basel and often met McKittrick.

Declassified documents in the American intelligence archives reveal an even more disturbing story. Under an intelligence operation known as the “Harvard Plan”, McKittrick was in contact with Nazi industrialists, working towards what the US documents, dated February 1945, describe as a “close cooperation between the Allied and German business world”.

Thus while Allied soldiers were fighting through Europe, McKittrick was cutting deals to keep the Germany economy strong. This was happening with what the US documents describe as “the full assistance” of the State Department.

Bear in mind Dulles went on to become head of the CIA…

I’d also add that those 700,000 has grown to 6 million claiming refugee status today.

See – Genocide!

@deadly I know we diasgree on this but Ireland is a Catholic State much like Spain and Italy. It’s as much a Catholic state as Saudi Arabia is an Islamic one.

@convert as a follow up I appreciate you think the forced exodus of the 700,000 was wrong but the solution is to 1) eradicate the state of Israel and/or 2) prevent Jews from having a nation state anywhere ? There is research which has shown many Arabs left as they did not wish to remain in a “Jewish land” (remember it was Trans Jordan and the Easten part which became Jordan was 100% Arab) and many where of the belief that the Arab nations would destroy the Jewish state so where getting away from what they saw as the battlefield before the fighting started.

Anti-Israel … being against Israeli policy, eg West Bank / Gaza OR wanting to see eradication of Israel ?
Anti-Zionist .. being against Jews having a state anywhere, defacto eradication of Israel.

Finally as for the forced exodus it was the Jews who where forced to leave the Jewish Kingdoms of Solomon and David and saw their first and second Temples in Jerusalem destroyed. It depends how fear back in history you want to go, 1948 vs 600 BC or various periods inbetween. The city of Medinah in Saudi was a Jewish city conquered by the Prophet Mohammed where he established Islam. At some point you have to draw a line and say things have changed. The Jews are not trying to reclaim it.

Funny thing is, the matters Ken Livingstone raised regarding collaboration between Nazis and Zionists also tie in to Saudi Arabia…

Adolf Eichmann credited Leopold von Mildenstein’s role as “the specialist for the Jewish affairs” as being the breakthrough in his career; Eichmann went on to become one of the key architects of the Holocaust.

John Loftus, an extremely meticulous and knowledgeable Nazi Hunter has stated that Adolf Eichmann had a meeting with Harry St John Philby (British Spy and Father of Kim Philby, who among other things has been linked to the Kincora scandal) in the mid 1930s

Aside from being a member of the British intelligence services, St John Philby was a key adviser to Ibn Saud, wahhabist and founder of the Saudi Monarchy…

It’s as much a Catholic state as Saudi Arabia is an Islamic one.

You really did just write that didn’t you. I’m not concerned whether you agree with me or not. Read the constitution. it’s religiosity is down to history and there is some religious bollocks in the pre-amble but it is not state sanctioned. Youre implying that it’s a “Christian State” in the way that Israel is a Jewish state. It’s not. As for the comparison to Saudi Arabia…I don’t know where to start or finish with that.

jambalaya – Member
Here is an example

You can be against Israel’s policy for example in the West Bank without being anti-Zionist. Being anti-Zionist means you believe Israel should not exist and what is more that Jews have no right to a state anywhere
Well; when my 10 year old leaves his nice bike in the park he doesn’t get to play with it for a while. Maybe we should apply the same to Israel? Use white phosphorus on a UN aid station;No international recognition for the pariah state of Israel for a few months. I am proud to be what you would call an anti-Semite ( because that is the label you throw about on here) based on your interpretation of it being anybody who is opposed to the regular racist,murderous actions of the Israeli state.

Jambybollocks rides again.

I know we diasgree on this but Ireland is a Catholic State much like Spain and Italy. It’s as much a Catholic state as Saudi Arabia is an Islamic one.

Its not you and he disagreeing its you and the actual facts disagreeing
here is th eopening article of Saudis constitution

Article 1
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic state with Islam as its religion; God’s Book and the Sunnah of His Prophet, God’s prayers and peace be upon him, are its constitution, Arabic is its language and Riyadh is its capital.111

I await you providing a similar statement from Ireland …you cannot because what you are saying is completely and utterly factually untrue and its constitution clearly states it cannot endorse any religion

Why do you “debate” if you wish to ignore the actual facts and why do you keep repeating things that have been shown to be completely false?
It must actually take you effort to ignore facts