Jesus Christ

But it’s not just ‘religion’ that you’re aiming it at on here TJ, it’s people such as me. Why do I ‘deserve’to have the ‘piss taken from me’? Do I really have to ‘keep quiet or face the ridicule’?. Who set you up in that position? I am more than able to see some of the problems caused in the world in the name of religion, but we’re talking about the faith of individuals now, on this forum. Perhaps you should learn to separate your view of a persons religion from your view of them as individuals.

Coyote – Member

No you are not. You are saying that people with religious or spiritual views deserve treating with contempt.

Dunno where you get that from. Not what I have said at all.

What I repeatedly have said is that religion should be treated in exactly the same way as any other belief.

Why should religion be except from being debated and questioned

Barnsley mitch – no I have not. I do separate the person from their beliefs.

I am saying their religious vies are ridiculous to me. I think you are one of the good guys

I don’t think religion needs “special” consideration as you put it. However I do believe that people should be free to pursue their own beliefs, as long as they do no harm, without fear of persecution. History is littered with unpleasant characters who believed that it was right to persecute people for their beliefs.

Why should religion be except from being debated and questioned

Ah, I see, you’re changing your tune now……so now you want to “debate and question” religion ?

A little while ago you just wanted to take the piss.

Coyote – then we agree then – that is exactly my position.

I find ALL religious views contemptible, ridiculous and offensive. If you express them you will find the piss taken from you.

I think there is no place for religion in the 21st century. The whole practice of religion is absolutely abhorrent to me. So keep quiet about it or face the ridicule

Yup. That is attacking the individual.

Coyote – then we agree then – that is exactly my position.

WHAT!?!

You really are struggling……aren’t you mate ?

Only to understand your logic.

I can see that.

I think I know where TJ is coming from although he’s expressed himself in about the most argumentative way possible! 😉

You should be able to question religion, the ask about it and to discuss it from different points of view but a lot of people seem to think that religion should be unquestioned, that it’s not “right” to question it, that it deserves some sort of special respect.

It doesn’t.

If I was to question a scientific paper then it would be right and proper – that’s how science works with scientists and academics questioning each others discoveries, demanding proofs and evidence, picking holes, pointing out errors – that’s how science advances itself. Religion (or more exactly, some religious people) seem to find any questioning of their faith in the above manner highly offensive and seem to think that it demands some sort of “respect”.

I respect your right to believe in UFO’s, faires, God(s), 9/11 conspiracy theories and the benefits of 29″ wheels but that doesn’t mean I can’t question it.

Edit: did I just agree with TJ?? 😯

Coyote – that is exactly my position. Keep it in private and you can do as you wish. Bring it in to the public domain then it is free to be treated in the same way as any other belief.

I do not attack the individual nor does that quote say that. I attack the religion not the person.

Ernie – I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate – why should religious be any differnt?

crazy-legs – Member

I think I know where TJ is coming from although he’s expressed himself in about the most argumentative way possible!

Who me?

Ernie – I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate – why should religious be any differnt?

“I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer”

Your intolerance and bigotry surprise me, they really do.

Put very simply, party politics usually involves one section of society being given a preference over another. The same can be said of all major organised religions. There is a lot of self interest there and debate and discussion is needed to try and maintain a balance. You only have to look at PMQs to see that childish piss taking passes as an accepted form of discussion in this fair country.

However I fail to see why, if an individual says that they believe in God, Allah, Buddha, Krishna and that they draw comfort from their beliefs, you feel that they should be subjected to ridicule and persecution.

Drawing comfort from religion is just as ludicrous as drawing comfort from a belief in faries.

It’s all nonsense and not only that it’s arrogance is breathtaking.

It’s just not true and that’s a simple and undeniable fact. I pity the religious.

joolsburger – you decribe religion as having ‘breathtaking arrogance’ in the same sentence as stating that ‘drawing comfort from religion is ludicrous’. You dont really do irony, do you?

Semantics is all you’ve got though isn’t it? It would be ironic if there was a god, and there isn’t. Also my full statement was not as you quoted.

Yeah sorry joolsburger, I forgot to put the ‘it’s all nonsense’ bit in. I simply find your assertions ‘breathtakingly arrogant’. It’s surely up to the individual concerned where they find comfort, and none of your concern, or am I just getting caught up in semantics? And regarding some of the posts on here claiming that religious people feel they should be protected or their views should be in some way ‘off limits’, what a crock of s**t. The point I’ve been trying to make all along is feel free to criticise or debate religion all you like – just try and refrain from the insults, etc. Clear enough for you?

It is up to people to believe what they want and it’s up to me to feel free to ridicule them for it. I don’t think I’ve insulted anyone (yet) just drawn a valid comparison between god and a fairy.

“Drawing comfort from religion is just as ludicrous as drawing comfort from a belief in faries.

It’s all nonsense and not only that it’s arrogance is breathtaking.

It’s just not true and that’s a simple and undeniable fact. I pity the religious.”
Thought I’d put the whole lot in, in case you accused me of misquouting you again. Are you really not able to recognise that this could be seen as insulting?

So there is some proof then? You have facts and evidence at your disposal that prove the existence of a supreme being?

What’s insulting is that the religious have gotten away with it for this long. It’s about time their “beliefs” were sent the way of the dodo.

Could you direct me to where I stated I could give you ‘proof’ of the existence of God? I merely asked people to refrain from being patronising and insulting, something you are clearly struggling with.

Gotta love the live and let live attitude of the more evangelical atheists on this thread.

A lot of the arguments seem to talk about imposition of one belief system over another. Interesting to see which direction the hate is coming from.

It’s about time their “beliefs” were sent the way of the dodo.

Well you get out there on your crusade to achieve that joolsburger.

……..I’m sure you’ll have much more success than Stalin or Mao Zedong ever had.

I mean, really, what sort of society tolerates that sort of nonsense ?

“What’s insulting is that the religious have gotten away with it for this long.”
Thought I’d stumbled into an episode of ScoobyDoo. Bet it was the caretaker that done it!

The derision is quite deliberate, I’m not struggling with it at all.

Please feel free, as religious people do, to act offended and make out in some way that it’s the Atheists that are intolerant.

I have nothing against people but their unfounded beliefs are something completely different.

I’m not ‘feeling free’ to ‘act offended as religious people do’, just feeling offended as people do. Not too difficult for you?

Well done on bringing Stalin into it. What would you bible thumpers do without him…

OK well do that then. Or in line with Christian beliefs you could forgive me.

Well done on bringing Stalin into it

Oh I see, you feel uncomfortable when forced to see the logical conclusion of religious intolerance ?

Let’s all pretend that we can be intolerant of religious beliefs ……..without there being any nasty consequences.

Not my research, but nicked from some bloke who calls himself “Soar with the eagles”:

Was Mary a virgin? Well of course she was. The old Aramaic word that was translated into a Greek word and then to Latin and finally to English as “virgin” meant a young married woman who hasn’t had a child yet. Although some scholars believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters, they agree that he was, if not an only, an oldest. Mary had no child, she was a virgin in Aramaic terms, when she conceived Jesus.

Let’s all pretend that we can be intolerant of others’ beliefs ……..without there being any nasty consequences to worry about, eh ?

fixed it for you

Although it could be argued by anyone with a solid grasp of Stalin’s actions that in order to consolidate his powerbase any large political and social organisations opposed to him were for the chop and the church, in his mind, had to go. Same with Mao.

The didn’t do what they did for the furthering of atheism but for a litany of other political reasons. I’m sure you know this and are just clutching at straws. Also it is fair to say that the machinery for wholesale murder and genocide are well developed these days so in a short space of time the godless (not Hitler as he was a bit of special case being a Catholic but also a bit of a pagan mystic)could kill lots more people more quickly.

Religion is a cracker for murder though as for 4 thousand years or so it’s been a default setting, kill the heretic etc. Had the inquisition had access to gas and machine guns I’m sure they’d have had a killing spree equal to anything in the 20th century, the intent was certainly there.

The basic fact is still that science and religion are opposed, I’m sticking with science as it means that I can post stuff like this on the interweb using a laptop, the technology powering it is so advanced as to be almost beyond belief but still nice and provable with facts, evidence and stuff like that.

I never bother to argue with god botherers of any flavour, as their judgement is obviously so fundamentally flawed I can’t really see the point. Religious belief justifies no more intellectual credence than the earth being flat or the moon being made of cheese.

You can call me an evangelical atheist if you like. I’m quite proud of being so.

You can tell me that my atheistic fervour is like a belief system if you like.Because it is.

For the reason I’ve stated above,if you are, it’s not like your opinion is valid to me anyway.:)

Thank you trailmonkey.

And btw, I offered Stalin and Mao Zedong as examples of two people who set out to send religious beliefs “the way of the dodo”.

They failed.

Presumably joolsburger believes that he will have better luck. Although he doesn’t go into any detail.

No ernie, thank you. You’ve proved my point that peoples views both political and religious, impact upon other people and both should be considered, debated and valued with equal pertinence and respect.

8)

In terms of detail I am just doing my part by ensuring that my kids think religion is bunk and also ripping into anyone who wants to argue the toss on god.

If I can get even 3 to 5 people on board with not doing god I’ve contributed. I will have a secular burial and so on.

It’s my keen desire to see religion become as unacceptable as racism, sexism and homophobia. I’m glad to see that in many circles a belief in god is already regarded as odd and deserving of ridicule.

Just keeping at it will get rid in the end.

Eventually I’m hoping thatgod becomes as irrelevant to most people as it is to me, it does however mean my and coming generations have to engage with the religious to turn them from their misguided ways.

Good luck joolsburger.

I’m don’t have faith, but on the strength of this thread I would rather share a beer with religious ones…

ernie_lynch – Member

“Ernie – I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate – why should religious be any different? “

“I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer”

I can’t see an answer to this – sorry