Jesus Christ

This thread is, by and large, quite educational apart from when Woppit and Fred start having a go at each other…

I’m sorry. I have also tried to contribute positively as well though. I think it’s enlightening to read others’ views too. Sadly some people’s minds are just closed to anything but their own blinkered egocentric opinions, and feel the need to attack alternative philosophies all the time. 🙁

I was going to argue that I’d rather have an elected, democratic government over a secretive, underhand organisation than manipulates people for its own ends, then realised I’d just talked myself out of the argument.

😆

Does leffeboy’s link take this thread from 10 pages to 20 at a stroke?

Does leffeboy’s link take this thread from 10 pages to 20 at a stroke?

It’s like googling ‘recursion’

It’s like googling ‘recursion’

That’s always tickled me. I’m easily pleased.

I’m not sure I understand you, “leffeboy”.

Are you saying that accepting the absence of a god is difficult, or that believing in one is difficult?

I’m trying to say that although, personally, I find believing in the existence of God quite easy, working out what that means for me is quite difficult for exactly the reasons that many have posted here.

Presumably then, you find the concept of there not being a god, difficult. Why is that?

does it matter? its how you live not what your religion is, there’s more hypocrites in church than outside!

How many people have died in the name of a religion….too many and it’s still going on!

Man has an inherent need to believe in something (hope) so why don’t we start with believing in each other?

Does it matter? Well presumably yes, to leffeboy, otherwise he wouldn’t be discussing it with me.

If the ‘gods’made us all equal then why is there always a hierachy? With the position comes the power and then the greed; surely all these religious leaders would be better off in banking!

How many people have died in the name of a religion

Not as many as have died in the name of political ideology or money…

Not as many as have died in the name of political ideology or money…

[Citation needed]

… even if that’s true, is that the best defence you can come up with? Religion might be genocidal, but at least it’s less genocidal than politics? Oh, well, that’s alright then. 🙄

Not needed at all:

WW1
WW2
Stalinist Purges
Vietnam/Cambodia
Gulf Wars
Rwanda

Etc…

Tot up the deaths from just those conflicts.

Realise that it’s many, many times the number of those killed in ‘religious’ wars throughout the rest of History.

Note that those wars have taken place in the last 100 years, a period that has seen increased secularisation across the Globe.

Are you suggesting that the religious tolerance we see in Israel /Palestine is required in these secular times to bring about world peace……you have had dafter ideas …but not many 😉

No I’m not.

I’m just answering the claim that Religion is this horrible killy thing that causes people to hate each other because they are different. Maybe people have used religion as an excuse to be nasty to each other, but modern wars are far more destructive and don’t often involve religion at all.

True Elfin, but you could easily stick a mahoosive list of religious wars up there, and it still wouldn’t prove anything other than humans don’t seem to need much of an excuse to be beastly to each other…

but modern wars are far more destructive and don’t often involve religion at all.

Ahem.

Maybe people have used religion as an excuse to be nasty to each other

Sadly humans dont need much excuse to be nasty to each other this includes believers and non believers EDIT: that was an act of terrorsim it is not a war and he said dont often not never

Junkyard, for some reason I read that as Beavers and non-Beavers… I was quite confused for a moment…

I still have time to edit if you want

but modern wars are far more destructive and don’t often involve religion at all.
Ahem.

Religion, race, culture or nationality?

Lots of things going on in that pic.

Ahem.

Erm that’s an alleged ‘act of terrorism’, not a war.

You could, by not much of a stretch of the imagination actually suggest that that picture represents the latest act in an on-going struggle between observants of a strict interpretation of a sect of Islam against the near-Satan of the Al-Saud family, by striking a blow against the far Satan…

If you wanted…

So it is sort of religious conflict…I meant to say.

Erm that’s an alleged ‘act of terrorism’, not a war.

… that led on to a great deal of “modern warfare”, is my point.

By the way, what do YOU think it was, Fred? An act of altruistic charity perhaps?

🙄

Think we can all agree you picked the only “war” that was religious neither of those big World Wars were nor the first Gulf war, nor Suez notr the Killiong fields etc. His point

but modern wars are far more destructive and don’t often involve religion at all

seems reasonable to al but the most ardent religious hater. We get it that you hate religion but it is not responsible for everything bad that happens.

It seems my definition of “modern” differs from yours, then.

Not everything. Just most of it.

not my definition it is his he noted wars in the last 100 years then used the word modern in the next post hence me adding 2 + 2 together. When did you want to go back to? Crusades? Lists here most are not religious. Royals , power , influence, imperialism etc but not religion.list of wars

WW1 not much religion but the churches were very pro war in England and Germany and were heavily involved in recruitment of the cannon fodder.
WW2 quite a lot of religion including it’s dress rehearsal in the Spanish Civil war and Catholic Ustasha concentration camps in Croatia.
Stalinist Purges not religious at all. Unless like many you view Stalin ism as a form of religion.
Vietnam/Cambodia Christian South Vietnam supported by Christian US impose very corrupt and violent regime on the South to resist the Viet Mihn’s expansion after they successfully kicked out the catholic colonial French
Gulf Wars ? well the Muslim world seem to see that one differently as do Blair and Bush who both have spoken of their religious faith in justifying their actions .
Rwanda The catholic church and or it’s priests have been accused of everything from standing idly by to active participation in the massacres . To be fair no one comes out smelling of roses from this utter disgrace.

Religion seems to form some element in most wars, it is often closely allied to the powers that wage those wars and contrary to the religious ideal rarely does organised religion speak out in opposition to war.

You could easily argue that the current ‘war’ in Afghanistan is a police action rather than a religious war.

WW2 quite a lot of religion

Is anti-semitisim based in race or religion?

Blair and Bush who both have spoken of their religious faith in justifying their actions .

Not really the same thing.

stretching a point even WQhoppit declined Yes they all had religions in the countries that were involved but claiming that WW2 was

quite a lot of religion

I always put it down to an expansionist Nazi fella with an odd moustache…Vietnam USA v Russia communism v western liberalism [well ish] Gulf wars – well yes Blair and bush were religious but I would plump for OIL myself. Is religion a force for good or bad it depends is it correct NO. Dont see the point in blaming them for everything. If humanity stopped believing will world peace break out NO.

You could easily argue that the current ‘war’ in Afghanistan is a police action rather than a religious war.

I’d suspect the locals may view it differently

A god or no god, one thing is certain, the bugger certainly causes alot of arguments whether it is fact or fiction, the master creator, or master bater.

In a godless world would we just co-exist with no disagreements on where we came from and who we choose to look up too beyond at things mortal and physically real.

People would just need to get stronger and stop believing there’s help out there another form. Believing there is, surely just gives a positive state of mind, not that that’s a bad thing mind.

Religion is all about stretching a point as a hyper successful animal we have an innate power to see pattern and order based on very little evidence this gives us an evolutionary advantage.Throw in self consciousness and we start to postulate the divine throw in education and experience and we move from many gods to one and finally to a rationalism based on science and either atheism or a woolly monotheistic spirituality.

The Nazi fella based a lot of his appeal on a quasi religious personality cult and had a lot of religious support Got Mit Us and all that.

Vietnam is very complicated but it’s wise to remember that the Viet Mihn wanted the US to support them against the French and the South, but the US sided on Religious grounds to support the South despite their violence and corruption.

I don’t seek to blame religion for everything it is only an extension of Human nature and is used by many as a shield to hide behind and justify their acts. The Pilgrim fathers would have engaged in Genocide even if the Native Americans had not convieniently been outside Gods Protection.

Nor do i credit religion with any good, people do altruistic acts because they are also part of our nature not because their God tells them to. Is it not nobler to do good because one feels that good is right rather than in the hope of heaven or fear of hell?

If we all abandoned religion world peace would not break out but it would be harder to sustain many conflicts if we all stopped seeing our fellow man as “other” or “less valuable” because of his failure to align himself with our particular imaginary friend.

And yes i do see the irony in that statement above but i don’t propose to kill any one for their religious beliefs nor to i intend to deny them the right to speak nor will i seek to chose their sexuality for them or dictate their birth control or right to medical treatment.

In a godless world would we just co-exist with no disagreements on where we came from and who we choose to look up too

The evidence suggests otherwise…

I leave you folks alone for a few days and you all go daft!

So.. all you who are led by evidence only, but your hands up!

Just seeing if I could resurrect this thread after three days. 😉

I couldn’t see this thread, and now I can. It’s a miracle, anonymouse is not a naughty boy!