Jesus Christ

Definitely a baby Robin.

I thought so too you know…

Eh? How can something ‘missing’ have a presence? According to science, the existence of something must be proven before it can be said to ‘exist’, right?

Sense of humour fail. The missing link comment was in reply to your GWB picture. It was a joke. 🙄

God was a busy chap. Check this out.

http://primaxstudio.com/stuff/scale_of_universe/index.php

Wow – that’s truly amazing. Thanks for sharing.

I agree with Mark on one point at least – the archaic & regressive adherence to religion in our legal system.
Several years ago i was summonsed to do jury service, & i was picked to serve on the jury of a case from the jury pool.
Upon sitting down we were given a card that told us we could either swear on the bible, the koran or swear an oath on our honour. I informed the clerk of the court that as i am not a christian (or islamic) i would not swear on the bible & could i please take the oath?

The clerk could not find the relevant card with the oath on it & court was held up for over 10 minutes whilst he hurried around trying to find it. The judge was most annoyed & asked me several times why i would not swear on the bible – at one point even asking if i would prefer the koran!
The idea that i would simply not entertain the idea of swearing on a religious book that i do not believe in or agree with simply could not find space in his world.

In this day & age the State & its apparatus should be completely seperate from any organised religion – the French have the right idea in this regard.
Religion is fine as a personal & private system of faith & support – when it enters the public arena it then starts to tread on the toes of the secular world.

So anyway…

leffeboy – Member

However, my question was, why do you need to “worship” at all?,

It’s your choice. If you believe that God did actually create this world then you would want to

Why would you want to, exactly?

the archaic & regressive adherence to religion in our legal system.

And our tax system and importantly in the house of Lords with its ability to block legislation as well as its disproportionate influence in politics and its ability to shape scientific progress.

The link between state and religion is more symbolic now in a similar way to the notion that the queen is the head of state. In reality the queen has no real power. I agree that it does seem inappropriate in our judicial system to ask people to swear an oath on a book which symbolises a faith they do not have but i guess we have got to this point largely because most people that do not have a faith are not that bothered by it or the requirements of swearing an oath so they “just go along with it”.

What you cannot escape from though, is that your views and attitudes will be shaped to a greater or lesser degree by what you believe in – and we all have a faith or belief system. The interesting thing about Christianity is that it prescribes a way of life that runs counter to most people’s natural way of living. This makes it easy to criticise Christians and accuse them of being hypocritical. In some cases this is true. In a lot of cases (as outlined by people like IanB earlier in this thread) it is simply that they are on a journey and do not claim to be perfect as people or perfect as representatives of the Christian faith. Are well perfect cyclists, able to execute any given trick or maneuver perfectly, every time? Do we make perfect decisions every time? Do we all understand all the workings of our bikes and how each component is specified, manufactured and put together? No. (Ok, so it is a bit of a tenuous example, but I’m making a point). So why expect a Christian, or any other religious person, to be perfect and to be able to give a complete, robust and watertight defence? Just look at this forum and we can’t even agree what tyres are best! Why expect it of religious people?

It’s your choice. If you believe that God did actually create this world then you would want to

Why would you want to, exactly?

Because creating the universe is rather impressive really. There is no requirement to worship, you can choose and if you don’t really believe in the existence of God you would be mad to. However if you do believe then you may find God worthy of both praise and worship. The choice really is yours.

But I do ‘get’ the question (I think). Even if God did create the universe – why should you worship Him? Because I choose to – sorry that I don’t have a better answer here

So, you’ve no complaints, then? Earthquakes, poisonous insects, necrotic fasciitis?

Because creating the universe is rather impressive really

Creating god is more impressive. Who did that?

There is no requirement to worship,

I’ve already said this once, but that’s a faith-specific statement. It may be true of Christianity, or at least it may be true of some versions of Christianity, but I don’t believe that faiths like Islam have quite so much wiggle room.

The idea that i would simply not entertain the idea of swearing on a religious book that i do not believe in or agree with simply could not find space in his world.

A judge who won’t allow you to exercise your legal rights?

The interesting thing about Christianity is that it prescribes a way of life that runs counter to most people’s natural way of living.

Can you give an example? I’m not sure what you mean.

link between state and religion is more symbolic now in a similar way to the notion that the queen is the head of state

So the head of the state is the head of th church and it has representatives in the house of lords who can make/affect laws – unlike other religions and you call this symbolic only. I disagree it has actuall power.

In reality the queen has no real power

The monarch/crown can disolve parliament,hold an election and then ask anyone to form a government perfectly legally. They sign all laws to make them legal and could refuse. I consider that to be real power and I am not sure why you do not.

Just look at this forum and we can’t even agree what tyres are best!

Yes but I can prove tyres exist by simply showing you them show me god in a clear cut way like this please.

Even if God did create the universe – why should you worship Him

That is just worshipping an architect. You claim god is far more than a cosmic builder dont you?
As Whoppit notes he also made some pretty appaling things as well extinction events, floods, sunami, Black death, Thyphoid – malaria – single biggest world killer, cancer, disease etc – he occasionally sends us this when we are naughty though* .You are also worshipping the person who made all that too not just the pretty fluffy stuff.
*Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.

Yep a perfect all loving being would be vengeful for sure

So, you’ve no complaints, then? Earthquakes, poisonous insects, necrotic fasciitis?

Not sure what sort of answer you’re looking for, but from my personal experiences of a few years ago when I went through a difficult time, I found Job 36:15 really helpful in getting through it: “But God teaches people through suffering and uses distress to open their eyes”

…I don’t believe that faiths like Islam have quite so much wiggle room.

No, and I for one have much respect for their devotion to their beliefs, i.e. the portion of their day (everyday) spent in prayer or worship.

Can you give an example? I’m not sure what you mean.

I see Western culture being dominated by materialism, politics and where secularism abounds. Not becoming distracted by the everyday of modern life is one of the challenges of maintaining Christian beliefs.

1 Peter 3:8 says “Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.”

Such a way of life is harder than you might think, but if everyone did it don’t you think that would be amazing?

I think I’ve said as much as I can and want to say. I’m sure some of you could go on and on. I’ve tried to give you my views in as respectful and thoughtful manner as I can manage, and if it has made even a small difference to one person, I will be glad. I wish you all well.

Ian

(Infradig – if you’re still reading, thanks for pointing me to 1 Peter)

Not becoming distracted by the everyday of modern life is one of the challenges of maintaining Christian beliefs.

Wouldn’t Buddhism be a better choice here, then? You get all the ‘improve yourself’ stuff without the need for ‘faith’.

Such a way of life is harder than you might think, but if everyone did it don’t you think that would be amazing?

I’d like to think that I can manage most of that without all the religious trappings that go with it. I’d argue that it’s not contrary to how people generally live; it’s counter to how some live, sure, but you’ll always get scumbags and I doubt very much that any religion would change that. Can’t you live a better life and generally be nice to people without needing to believe in gods?

Going back to Islam as an example, they’re amongst the most devout people I know, and they’re hardly famed for their tolerance of other cultures. I’m not convinced that faith implies good, and lack of faith renders it impossible.

But God teaches people through suffering and uses distress to open their eyes”

Excellent I am round to make you suffer and set about you with bombers to teach you a lesson that will show you how great I am…does that really not sound ridiculous to you?
So nice things show you gods love and bad things show you gods love excellent rational approach to life
Leaves thread how can you discuss with someone who says this?

I’ll try…

I’m having a little difficulty understanding why a person would want to “worship” something, that treats them like a sadist.

Oh, hang on. Could it be a sublimated drive of some sort, perhaps?

they’re hardly famed for their tolerance of other cultures

Yeah, but that’s mainly because of Western media Islamophobic propaganda, let’s be honest. The spread of Christianity din’t involve much tolerance…

The vast majority of religious folk are no less tolerant than the non-religious. Some Heathens are incredibly intolerant. This thread proves this fact.

But God teaches people through suffering and uses distress to open their eyes”

That’ll be a good excuse next time I give my kids a good hiding.

Yeah, but that’s mainly because of Western media Islamophobic propaganda, let’s be honest.

Well, it’s not, is it. The extremists don’t help matters admittedly, and our media are a bunch of sensationalist shysters, but that doesn’t mean that they’re actually massive fans of Christianity and Atheism and are just criminally misrepresented.

The spread of Christianity din’t involve much tolerance…

Yeah, you don’t have a monopoly on that one either, it’s one of the problems I have with organised religion. That said, Christianity at least has tried to move with the times a little, there’s not much crusdading and beheading going on these days.

The spread of Christianity din’t involve much tolerance…

On that subject, here’s some fun reading,

http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html

Not much One Peter going on there, is there. Blimey.

Well, it’s not, is it.

Yes it is, mostly. The demonisation of Islam has little do do with the real ‘threat’ posed to Western Civilisation by Islam. The West just needed another ‘enemy’ when Communism evaporated. If the Chinese didn’t have so many Nukes, we’d probably be saying that stir-fry noodles were the root of all evil…

Most religions, if practiced in a thoughtful, considerate manner according to doctrine, are pretty benign and peaceful. It’s when religions are turned into means to control others, to suit the wishes of the corrupt and evil, that the problems start.

The demonisation of Islam

Now you’re putting words into my mouth. I wasn’t talking about ‘demonisation’ of religion, or let’s say the word “terrorism.” I was merely saying that (to the best of my limited knowledge), integration with other faiths and cultures isn’t high on the list of the Islamic agenda.

It’s when religions are turned into means to control others, to suit the wishes of the corrupt and evil, that the problems start.

It’d seem to me that you’ve got that backwards. Far as I can see, religion’s raison d’etre is to control others, it’s only in modern times where it’s been turned away from the corrupt and evil. Mostly.

As another aside, I’ve just happened across this, might be of interest to some.

http://www.interfaith.org/

Seems to be an unbiased multi-faith news website. Gotta love the Internet.

1 Peter 3:8 says “Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.”

Such a way of life is harder than you might think, but if everyone did it don’t you think that would be amazing?

Not everyone can love as brothers, because over 50% of the population is female. But according to the Bible I’m pretty much a persona non grata, along with gays and non-Christians. If that’s the word of ‘God’, then I can’t imagine Hell being much worse.

So, you’ve no complaints, then? Earthquakes, poisonous insects, necrotic fasciitis?

Yes, of course I do. This is a HUGE difficulty and something on which many, many books have been and will be written. If we try and go down the ‘why is it like this’ route we just aren’t going to get anywhere other than rehash what has been done before.

More interesting though might be how we live with it as that can be tough. IanB’s quote from Job is also true in my experience but that is also tough and I’m not sure that the purpose of suffering is to teach although that can be a result (and I’m not sure that is what Ian was saying). In the end I think there are two things that override and help. The first is a belief that the world as it is is not what was originally intended (and yes that gives another set of issues but then we are into another story about whether it is possible to create a ‘perfect’ world and still have ‘good’). The second is a belief that there is an end purpose to it all and it’s not all about the individual

I suspect none of that will seem to make sense without some belief in a God – I’m just trying to help show a view from another side rather than justify belief in some way.

I was merely saying that (to the best of my limited knowledge), integration with other faiths and cultures isn’t high on the list of the Islamic agenda.

Ok fair enough. My personal experience of Islam is that it is overall a peaceful religion whose followers are mainly people who fit into society as effectively as anyone else. As for tolerance; East London Mosque is situated bang next door to a synagogue. Until the recent building expansion works, the Rabbi parked his car in the mosque car-park. Here in the East End, there seems to be an amazing mount of tolerance and dialogue between the many faiths. When a priest was attacked in the grounds of St George’s Church in Shadwell, Islamic leaders were among the first to express support and sympathy. In spite of the right-wing press screaming about his attackers being ‘Muslim’, the victim did not blame Islam for what happened to him. It’s terrible that such hate exists, but the scum who did this aren’t Muslims; Islam forbids such senseless behaviour. They were also apparently drunk; hardly yer devout mosque-goers then. Ergo, it wasn’t Islam that was intolerant, it was racist scum who used Islam as a shield for their own cowardice. ****s.

Far as I can see, religion’s raison d’etre is to control others

Yeah, but so does a government!

Society needs a form of control, to prevent lawlessness and establish rules of conduct so that everyone is treated fairly and equally, and don’t go round robbing and stealing off each other.

Religion will always be around in some form or another.

Bow down in the temple of Mamon, to the God of Greed:

2 points.

Proving whether ‘god’ exists, merely proves a higher being exists. You would then be faced with the task of having her endorse a certain way of living over another way. If you claim to have the ‘truth’, guess what, you probably haven’t.

Secondly, I was in the god squad for quite a few wasted years and can honestly say that churches contain most of the most manipulative, narrow minded and unpleasant people I’ve come across in life, often in positions of leadership. Also with shocking taste in clothes and music.

can honestly say that churches contain most of the most manipulative, narrow minded and unpleasant people I’ve come across in life, often in positions of leadership. Also with shocking taste in clothes and music.

+1

and some of the smartest, most caring, most helpful people as well. The point is that fortunately for us all, none of these qualities are requirements of membership…

oops. and just so we’re clear. I am not saying that being a believer is a requirement of being smart/caring/helpful either

leffeboy – Member

So, you’ve no complaints, then? Earthquakes, poisonous insects, necrotic fasciitis?

Yes, of course I do. This is a HUGE difficulty and something on which many, many books have been and will be written

Ah yes, Theology. And Unicornology, Leprechaunology and Fairies-at-the-bottom-of-the-gardenology.

It’s actually very simple and not difficult at all.

There is nothing to blame. There is no god.

That’s me done on this one…

It’s actually very simple and not difficult at all.

Agreed.

Actually score that out. It is difficult.

That’s me done on this one…

Thank God for that! 😆

leffeboy – Member

It’s actually very simple and not difficult at all.

Agreed.

Actually score that out. It is difficult.

How so?

I thought you were done.

Oh he’ll never be done, anonymous. It’s just that it’s got to the stage where he’s run out of ideas and things to say. Notice the continued antagonistic tone however.

Come on Woppit; come and have a pint with us! 😀

Ah, go on…

Mr Woppit – Member

leffeboy – Member

It’s actually very simple and not difficult at all.

Agreed.

Actually score that out. It is difficult.

How so?

This thread is, by and large, quite educational apart from when Woppit and Fred start having a go at each other…

Mmmmm!

Cheese and salad sarnies and cuppa tea, post ride.

Lovin’ it!

If we try and go down the ‘why is it like this’ route we just aren’t going to get anywhere

Only if you’re closed-minded enough to insist on retro-fitting god into the question. Remove that and the answer becomes obvious pretty quickly.

Which is odd, don’t you think? Isn’t the existence of god supposed to provide answers and explanations, rather than make them more difficult?

My personal experience of Islam

Fair comments and I take your point. I had an issue at home last year and my experiences were similar – the Asian community were very helpful.

Society needs a form of control

I was going to argue that I’d rather have an elected, democratic government over a secretive, underhand organisation than manipulates people for its own ends, then realised I’d just talked myself out of the argument. (-:

Mr Woppit – how so

Take a look here