Jeremy Forrest guilty what do we think ?

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  • Jeremy Forrest guilty what do we think ?
  • Peyote
    Member

    Ok at what age would you class someone a Paedo?

    It’s not about age though is it? In this case I wouldn’t call him a peado.

    Sorry- I went to school, there were the odd girls and boys who were mature for their age (15/16yr olds) but that was mature in our eyes at that age. Don’t mistake maturity with intelligence. A child isn’t worldly, wise and mature.

    You can’t generalise, well, you can but you’ll be wrong to! A child or rather a young person, can be far wiser than someone older than them. Intelligence and wisdom are to separate qualities and one would be mistaken for confusing them.

    In some countries? Sorry are we now selectively selecting the laws and customs from other countries/cultures and apply to our own laws as we sit fit?

    We? You can, I’m not! I’m simply pointing out that the age based laws don’t account for individual cases and people. If these two had been in a school 1 few hundred miles south (say in Spain) things would be different I’d imagine. Food for thought, not “selectively selecting laws as we see fit”.

    14yr olds can be sex mad. Why not let them be sexmad with someone of a similar age to them.

    I’m not stopping them! I’m also not going to jump up and down if there’s a significant age difference though.

    Peyote
    Member

    Slightly creepy though that male posters are somehow reducing what he did to ‘her’ being abit more than a schoolchild who was groomed by an adult to part-guilty-party.

    Not at all, we don’t know what part each played in the relationship. You’re assuming something that may not be the case.

    edlong
    Member

    There’s nothing creepy about acknowledging the reality that there is a world of difference between being a “paedophile” attracted to children (various definitions already cited) and being attracted to a fifteen year old girl / young woman. If you really don’t see a difference between being attracted to a fifteen year old girl and a nine year old girl than I’d be worried. When I was 18 I copped off with a girl who I thought was older than she was – she was 15.

    Was it Charlotte Church or Billie Piper that Chris Moyles (or someone like that) did a big thing about “being legal” on their sixteenth birthday? Yeah, cos she was an innocent child the day before and if you had mucky thoughts about her yesterday you were an evil paedo who should be castrated but today, happy birthday and lets have a letch…

    And fifteen year olds and thirty year olds falling in love? It happens.

    BUT this guy was her teacher. In that respect, it is totally wrong and an abuse of trust and authority and if he’d waited until her 16th birthday and she “was legal” then it would still be exactly the same abuse of trust and authority. This particular story is not about underage sex in particular, but an abuse by a person in authority of someone in their care. I would categorise it as more akin to a father committing incest with their 17 year old daughter than with Stuart Hall style “kiddy fiddling”.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    I’m not stopping them! I’m also not going to jump up and down if there’s a significant age difference though.

    I would if it was with somebody who is supposed to be responsible for their care.

    edlong
    Member

    Slightly creepy though that male posters are somehow reducing what he did to ‘her’ being abit more than a schoolchild who was groomed by an adult to part-guilty-party.

    I must be reading a different thread from you. As others have said, we don’t know the dynamics of this relationship, but we do know that he was her teacher and should have known better even if, for the sake of argument, she was the chaser and he the chasee.

    Peyote
    Member

    I would if it was with somebody who is supposed to be responsible for their care.

    Well, yeah. Sorry I thought that was self-evident from the general consensus on this thread. For what it’s worth, and for the record. I am in complete agreement.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    Is an 18-year-old having a relationship with someone just prior to their 16th birthday a paedophile? Under the definition given earlier, yes, but I’m not sure we would want to classify a teenage relationship in these terms.

    Forrest is a criminal – he abused his position of trust to allow a relationship with someone vulnerable to attention from an adult in a position of authority.

    The abduction is a technical offence – in legal terms she is unable to give consent to leaving the country, only her parents can do that. So ‘her own free will’ doesn’t come into it. Also easier to prove than trying to prove underage sex, particularly if the two of them were silent on the issue.

    Putting aside the fact that he was her teacher, which automatically makes it very wrong, the reason that we have an age of consent is to fix a point in law when the majority of young girls are considered mature enough to offer meaningful consent to having sex. Some girls reach that level of maturity earlier than 16, others never fully reach it (the same could easily be said for boys, of course). So the fixed age point is so that society can protect the more vulnerable, even if it might seem that an individual underage girl is capable of a mature relationship.

    We’re never going to have a perfect system, but I’d suggest that consent at 16 is about the right threshold.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Slightly creepy though that male posters are somehow reducing what he did to ‘her’ being abit more than a schoolchild who was groomed by an adult to part-guilty-party.

    You are making lots of assumptions there yourself as well re “groomed” and calling anyone who disagrees with your creepy is a bit pointless tbh

    it is slightly more complicated that the Hora he is a dirty paedo binary stance but you don’t seem to do subtly or grass the possibility of a sliding scale that ranges from dangerous deranged paedo to inappropriate adult behaviour…..its not either or or simply black and white in this case though it can be.

    Premier Icon piedi di formaggio
    Subscriber

    Forrest is a criminal – he abused his position of trust to allow a relationship with someone vulnerable to attention from an adult in a position of authority.

    The abduction is a technical offence – in legal terms she is unable to give consent to leaving the country, only her parents can do that. So ‘her own free will’ doesn’t come into it. Easier to prove than trying to prove underage sex, particularly if the two of them were silent on the issue.

    He also undeniably knew what he was doing was against the law. Why else would he have lobbed his mobile into the Channel and dyed their hair as a disguise? He has been foolish at best, but is now a convicted criminal.

    OK he has ‘fallen in love’, but as a teacher he should not have allowed himself to get close enough to a pupil for that to happen in the first place.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Edric 64 – Member
    If they end up as a couple in say 5 years time do you still view him as a child abuser or not ?

    Yes. He abused a child.
    That will never change.

    Junkyard – lazarus
    it is slightly more complicated that the Hora he is a dirty paedo binary stance but you don’t seem to do subtly or grass the possibility of a sliding scale that ranges from dangerous deranged paedo to inappropriate adult behaviour…..its not either or or simply black and white in this case though it can be.

    No, it’s not ambiguous.
    He had sex with a child.

    edlong – Member

    There’s nothing creepy about acknowledging the reality that there is a world of difference between being a “paedophile” attracted to children (various definitions already cited) and being attracted to a fifteen year old girl / young woman. If you really don’t see a difference between being attracted to a fifteen year old girl and a nine year old girl than I’d be worried.

    Whereas your statement worries me.

    Look, it’s very simple.
    If you are an adult, you don’t have sex with children.
    No ifs, no buts, you just don’t do it.
    It’s immoral and illegal.

    I find some of the attitudes expressed on this and previous threads on the subject quite alarming.

    Premier Icon Garry_Lager
    Subscriber

    Not impressed with his not guilty plea, and then using the girl as a proxy to peddle a truly fatuous, self-serving defense on his behalf. He was obv bang to rights as far as the law goes, so it seems like the right time to admit that things got badly out of hand, step up and pay the price.

    There may be good lawyerly reasons for not wanting to admit guilt I guess – maybe it was the best percentage play for him and in the future he can say he fought the accusation and doesn’t accept it.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    TBH there is no “mitigation” to be had here, especially for a teacher…

    I don’t think it’s an age gap issue, its more about emotional maturity and the fact that a teacher should never place them self in this sort of position Ever…

    From my memory of being 14/15, teenage girls often think they are more emotionally mature than they really are, hence many started up relationships with local lads in their late teens / early twenty’s (most of whom would be knobbers by most peoples’s standards TBH), but they’re older and appear more mature to a 15 YO girl…

    I don’t see Jeremy in any different light really to those 18 YO cocks in Nova’s hanging outside the school gates, He’s taken advantage of a teenage infatuation, he knew this was wrong, he lied and evaded, and when things started to close in he attempted to take the girl and go on the run. He knew just how seriously wrong this was, he had very clearly defined boundaries as an adult who’s job required him to work with children and he still went ahead with a sexual relationship with a minor.

    15 YO girls like a bit of drama and believe they understand adult relationships already, TBH between 15 and ~25 most do a lot of growing up and learn from their mistakes, unfortunately her mistake was very visible and involved this knob head. He should have know all of this as a Teacher, a 30 YO male and a married man, he’s had twice as much “Life experience” as her, so I think there’s a fair bit of emotional immaturity evident in Mr Forrest…

    If she’s still infatuated with him when she hit’s 20, and her peers are generally engaged in more “normal” relationships with people who aren’t on the sex offenders register (as I assume he will still be?) then I’d say he’s damaged her ability to form a “Normal” relationship and intentionally or otherwise wound up stunting her emotional development…

    All IMO…

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    I think there’s a fair bit of emotional immaturity evident in Mr Forrest…

    TBH, a lot of what was presented to the court – writing crap songs for your crap band about some girl you like – are the sort of things your average 17-year-old would do. As I said before, some girls and boys are never capable of mature relationships.

    It’s his poor wife I feel sorry for. After all, she married a child without even realising it.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    If you are an adult, you don’t have sex with children.
    No ifs, no buts, you just don’t do it.
    It’s immoral and illegal.

    I find some of the attitudes expressed on this and previous threads on the subject quite alarming.

    Just so I’m clear,

    Are you suggesting then that the figure of 16 attached in law is the only yardstick we should be considering here?

    Sidestepping the teacher / age difference aspects for a second, if someone (let’s say a 17 year old boy) wants to have a relationship / sex with a girl who is 15 years and 364 days old, it’s illegal and immoral, but if he hangs on a week he can happily be balls deep with impunity?

    From a legal standpoint, that’s correct of course. From a moral one, what changes that day? Does a girl go to bed as a child on the eve of her 16th birthday, and magically wake up as an adult the following morning? We should probably take the time of birth into account as well, just to be absolutely on the money. Can’t be ten minutes early or you’re a paedophile.

    This is, of course, absurd. As Junky’s said, an age of consent is an absolutely necessary thing for all manner of things, but it’s a best-fit figure aimed at protecting the majority of children / young adults from situations they’re not emotionally equipped to deal with. People mature at different rates, it’s not that black and white. Some people aren’t ready for a sexual relationship at 16 or way past that age, some will be.

    TiRed
    Member

    pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to children.

    Medically, she’s an adolescent. Legally, she’s a child. He was convicted since he broke the clearly defined law. If they are happily married in five years time, it would not worry me at all. Love happens. The teacher should have waited – he’s been very foolish.

    Son1’s Godfather, who was a curate at the time, fell in love with a young lady half his age. He waited until she older before starting a relationship with the consent of her parents. They have been married over 10 years now.

    hora
    Member

    Tired he fell for a child then? He found a child attractive. Sorry, the visual attraction thing will always be there.

    I personally find young girls to be just that. No attraction. Same when a 30yr old female doea the same. 14/15yr old boys are imature/young/different era

    Im struggling with the grey areas. A 17 and a 15yr old is closer in age/tastes/etc. A man with a child is firmly grooming.

    dannyh
    Member

    He knew what he was doing was likely to land him in trouble. If not prison, then loss of job, reputation etc. But actually, quite likely to be prison.

    He then chose to carry on regardless. He is guilty. He is ‘lucky’ they are not going after him for statuatory rape.

    If you break the law you should expect consequences.

    You should also have some moral compass about what is right and wrong as well.

    The amateur psychologist view would see him as a bit of a tragic character – seeing himself as a bit ‘rock and roll’ being in a band and all. A pillock really, but now one with a criminal conviction for child abduction.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Cougar – Moderator

    Just so I’m clear,

    Are you suggesting then that the figure of 16 attached in law is the only yardstick we should be considering here?

    Providing that there are no other issues such as capacity to consent etc, yes.

    Sidestepping the teacher / age difference aspects for a second, if someone (let’s say a 17 year old boy) wants to have a relationship / sex with a girl who is 15 years and 364 days old, it’s illegal and immoral, but if he hangs on a week he can happily be balls deep with impunity?

    There has to be a cut off point, a statement of law that defines childhood for purposes such as these.

    Does a girl go to bed as a child on the eve of her 16th birthday, and magically wake up as an adult the following morning?

    Legally, yes.

    As Junky’s said, an age of consent is an absolutely necessary thing for all manner of things, but it’s a best-fit figure aimed at protecting the majority of children / young adults from situations they’re not emotionally equipped to deal with.

    I totally agree.

    People mature at different rates, it’s not that black and white. Some people aren’t ready for a sexual relationship at 16 or way past that age, some will be.

    I agree with this too.

    I believe it is illegal and immoral for an adult to have sex with a child, ie a person under 16.

    Which bit of this do you disagree with?
    If you do disagree, please let us know the circumstances where an adult having sex with a child can be justified.

    Edric 64
    Member

    So how do we see sentencing ?Is a long one cut and dried or is the fact that the victim albeit a young girl of 16 allegedly in love with him and going to apply for prison visits taken into consideration?Or is it seen that he was bloody good at grooming a young girl to the point that she still feels this way even though we assume she cannot have had contact with him for months?

    zokes
    Member

    I personally find young girls to be just that. No attraction.

    So, assuming you were free, single, and drinking at a bar, and a sexy 18 yo girl starts chatting you up, you get on well; presumably there’s some attraction. (And I strongly doubt you’d be immune to being attracted to a sexy 18 yo woman).

    What happens if that “18 yo woman” then confesses, after the act, that she was actually 15? I know that’s not what happened in Forrest’s case, but it’s quite a clear scenario where you would have, albeit inadvertently, been attracted to and slept with (in your eyes, and the law’s) a child.

    Medically however, you’d have been attracted to and slept with a young adult.

    mattrgee
    Member

    five and a half years.

    hora
    Member

    So, assuming you were free, single, and drinking at a bar, and a sexy 18 yo girl starts chatting you up, you get on well; presumably there’s some attraction. (And I strongly doubt you’d be immune to being attracted to a sexy 18 yo woman).

    For starters your Court Defence would have some credibility and assuming the girl LOOKED 18.

    Going back to 14/15yr olds. If you have friends/family with children of this age you don’t need telling. Its wrong. They look in so many ways young. They act/interests are totally different to your own. Even if you rodes mountain bikes in the same group as a 15yr old – you’d say ‘cool kid’, geeky kid, nice kid and a credit to his Dad.

    Age difference at 30-40 etc isn’t a gulf like it is between a minor and an adult. Ones developing, learning, still learning about the world.

    Anyhow, who am I trying to convince. Apparently sex between a 14-15yr old girl and a 30yr old man is understandable.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Legally, yes.

    And morally?

    Which bit of this do you disagree with?

    I wasn’t inherently disagreeing, I was making sure I understood your opinion as it seemed to me that an arbitrary figure was a fairly poor way of gauging maturity.

    If you do disagree, please let us know the circumstances where an adult having sex with a child can be justified.

    Well, that’s a loaded question isn’t it. It’s never appropriate for an adult to have sex with a child, what I’m picking at is how we define “child” in this context.

    If I’m sixteen and my girlfriend is fifteen years and eleven months, if I consummate that relationship then by your definition I’m an adult having sex with a child. And purely from a legal standpoint you’re right and I could be arrested for it. But is the law correct in this case, I’ve committed a heinous act of sex with a minor due to an age difference of a couple of weeks, and should go directly to the sex offenders’ register without passing Go?

    Mrs Toast
    Member

    Ah, poor conflicted media…

    I’ve mentioned before when I was at school, loads of my school friends had much older boyfriends – when they were 13 – 15, they were in relationships with guys who were 20 – 35.

    In some cases, the guys were proper creeps, blatantly wanting a sex toy that they could easily control, video and photo to their heart’s content.

    In most cases though, the ‘men’ were chronically immature blokes who genuinely loved or at least cared for their much younger girlfriends. A couple of them genuinely didn’t know the age of the girls until after a few weeks (they’d often met in the local nightclub). Quite a few of the blokes had their hearts broken when the girls grew up and realised that what they found funny and appealing when they were in their mid-teens became immature and annoying by their late teens.

    That said, I genuinely wouldn’t expect an educated 30-year old married teacher start a relationship with a pupil, never mind run off with her to France. He had no excuse – he knew her age from the start, and was in a position of trust. That does kind of put a more exploitative angle on the whole thing.

    zokes
    Member

    For starters your Court Defence would have some credibility and assuming the girl LOOKED 18.

    Hora, you were the one saying you unequivocally felt no attraction to 15 yo ‘girls’. I took that to be your unequivocal viewpoint. Seems it’s not so unequivocal after all if you accept you could have been in the plausible position I outlined.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Apparently sex between a 14-15yr old girl and a 30yr old man is understandable.

    Just so as we’re clear and I don’t get tarred with something I didn’t say,

    I agree with this, and I said as much in an earlier comment: “Sidestepping the teacher / age difference aspects for a second.” I’m not suggesting for a second that what he did was right, justifiable, or defensible at any level. I’m debating hypotheticals and that it’s not quite as simple as the black and white “you’ve shagged a fifteen year old therefore you’re a nonce”.

    hora
    Member

    You presented one of those impossible analogies.

    IF I was in a bar and a sexy 18yr old chatted me up. Funnily enough it has happened but none of the girls back then were 15 as they’d have looked it. I answered as in IF it did happen and I found out post-event.

    I’ve never met a sexy 15yr old. I’ve only ever seen heavily made up 15yr olds.

    This argument is crock. Are you arguing in the hope that I too will agree having sex with a minor is ‘ok’ somehow?

    This bloke is a martyr with learning difficulties who managed to land a teaching job, lead a normal life then be tricked by a young girl?

    Finally a quote for you from the School

    “It is important that the strongest possible message is sent to all who work with children that they hold a position of responsibility and trust for the lives, and wellbeing, of those in their care,”

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I’ve never met a sexy 15yr old. I’ve only ever seen heavily made up 15yr olds.

    I met bloody tons when I was 15.

    konabunny
    Member

    he has been an idiot at best

    Bollocks.

    I have nothing to add to the disturbing debate over whether a 30 year old man sleeping with a girl who is under the age of consent could ever be “justified” so I will just make a comment.
    My eldest daughter is 14, same as this girl was when the “relationship” started. If one of her teachers “fell in love” with her I suspect it would be me who would be looking at prison time. Whilst he would be looking at an equally long stay in hospital (if he was lucky)

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Cougar – Moderator
    And morally?

    Everyone has different moral standards.
    Obviously some adults feel that they can justify having sex with a child on moral grounds.

    However, as a society, we have decided that 16 is the current age of consent.
    To, as you say, protect the majority of children.
    You can justify sex with a child however you like, but it’s still just that.

    If I’m sixteen and my girlfriend is fifteen years and eleven months, if I consummate that relationship then by your definition I’m an adult having sex with a child. And purely from a legal standpoint you’re right and I could be arrested for it. But is the law correct in this case, I’ve committed a heinous act of sex with a minor due to an age difference of a couple of weeks, and should go directly to the sex offenders’ register without passing Go?

    It’s not my definition – it’s the law.
    Carefully considered to protect the majority of children.

    And if such a case came before a court, I’m sure the relative ages of both parties, the adult and the child, would be taken into account.

    It’s never appropriate for an adult to have sex with a child, what I’m picking at is how we define “child” in this context.

    ‘We’ define a child as someone under 16.
    Would you prefer that we looked at each case on an individual basis?
    What criteria would you prefer we use to define adulthood?

    djglover
    Member

    I have nothing to add to the disturbing debate over whether a 30 year old man sleeping with a girl who is under the age of consent could ever be “justified” so I will just make a comment.
    My eldest daughter is 14, same as this girl was when the “relationship” started. If one of her teachers “fell in love” with her I suspect it would be me who would be looking at prison time. Whilst he would be looking at an equally long stay in hospital (if he was lucky)

    Carefully billy, the liberals didn’t like it when I said that earlier.

    Apparently its better to shag a minor than thump someone who has.

    Peyote
    Member

    Apparently sex between a 14-15yr old girl and a 30yr old man is understandable.

    That’s a bit of a silly thing to write, and implies that you don’t really understand what a lot of posters are trying to explain.

    The point is, this kind of scenario older (immature) bloke, adolescent girl happens so regularly that we should make an effort to understand it and be aware of all the dangers associated with it*. As Mrs Toast points out there is nothing unusual here except that it’s a married teacher/pupil situation which puts a much darker spin on it.

    *Interestingly the dangers associated with this kind of relationship aren’t that different to any relationship. The potential for abuse is always there no matter the ages of the players, a vulnerable adult can be at more danger from a potential abuser than a mature adolescent. Something that is often unfortunately overlooked in adult/adult relationship dynamics…

    zokes
    Member

    I’ve never met a sexy 15yr old.

    Never???? What if you didn’t know they were 15?

    This argument is crock.

    No it’s not, it’s just one you can’t answer without conceding that you’re wrong on this occasion

    Are you arguing in the hope that I too will agree having sex with a minor is ‘ok’ somehow?

    What I am arguing is that the definition of ‘minor’ from a medical and moral standpoint isn’t quite as black and white as the law is on its definition. The fact you seem to be struggling with my point above confirms this.

    5 1/2 years seems nuts to me, especially given Stuart Hall was sentenced to 15 months for 14 instances of sex abuse (with one girl as young as 9).

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I have nothing to add to the disturbing debate over whether a 30 year old man sleeping with a girl who is under the age of consent could ever be “justified” so I will just make a comment.

    Has anyone actually said that though? I missed it if so.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Carefully billy, the liberals didn’t like it when I said that earlier.

    Apparently its better to shag a minor than thump someone who has.

    Who’s saying that?

    djglover
    Member

    Has anyone actually said that though? I missed it if so.

    I think he interpreted the stance taken by you and some other posters that blur the lines between the age of concent, and then the creation of other hypothetical scenarios involving people just under and over the age of concent as an attempt to mitigate / justify this mans actions. thats how it reads to me also.

    PJM1974
    Member

    Ah, poor conflicted media…

    This! Absolutely, this.

    Pigface
    Member

    In the distance I can hear the “Thread closed” machine being fired up.

    What is the law of consent in other countries?

    13 in Spain 😯

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

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