It’s not catchy no, but then I’m not suggesting it should be a slogan, just a message that they need to implant in people’s heads. Other more catchy slogans, advertising, and simply saying it aloud on the news and in the press would achieve this. This is what the tories do, and people end up believing it whether it’s true or not. As for labour’s own culpability, well there’s enough space now between the current leadership and Blair/Brown to get away with it.

Dazh, if there is one thing labour has done well, its to implant that idea in peoples’ minds even though it is false – STW threads demonstrate that clearly. But that’s a bit tired now – they need a better narractive – after a better choice of leader clearly (if polls are to be believed 😉 )

well there’s enough space now between the current leadership and Blair/Brown to get away with it.

Is there? After all Corbyn is attacked for going back to the 70’s and Cameron for being like Thatcher. People have long memories in politics.

Worth pointing out that Labour are already more trusted than the Tories on the NHS, so is this going to be a productive line of attack?

Labour have banged on about the NHS for years to little avail. Despite there being only 24 hours to save the NHS from the Tories, my wife continues to have regular out patient appointment at NHS hospitals which cost her nothing. This is obviously a quite extraordinary achievement.

They would have to continually refer to Cabinet members links to business/banking/retirement jobs/donations/etc.

Don’t they have to be careful throwing stones in that particular glass house?

Despite there being only 24 hours to save the NHS from the Tories, my wife continues to have regular out patient appointment at NHS hospitals which cost her nothing. This is obviously a quite extraordinary achievement.

There is nothing extraordinary about you defending the tories- Perhaps you could reference it tp public perception and trusting the Tories or The junior doctors assuming you wish to be balanced rather than just partisan

Christ these threads are not even folk discussing issues they are just going i support this party

Its blindingly obvious that the tories are not trusted on the NHS and its not hard to see why.
FFS can we actually engage on the issue rather than just roll out party soundbites?

Labour have banged on about the NHS for years to little avail.

I’m not arguing that, I’m suggesting they should go for the corruption angle and use the NHS, among other things as a vehicle. Anyway, this is just one example, the point is that they could be more aggressive, and a little less scrupulous when it comes to campaigning.

Well based on leaflet analysis by Nottingham Uni apparently Labour had the most negative campaign and UKIP the least.

Party with Most Negative Election Campaign

poor way of working it out whereby one negative comment is equivalent to 5 and the “severity” has no bearing on the “negativity

Still at least we seem to be moving away from just attacking the party we dont like by cheery picking stuff to suit 🙄

😀

Have you worked out your own political bias yet? you seem the only one who is unsure of which side you lean.
Still at least I still know you are reading even if you continue to know your limits and sulk 😉

Also the definition* of attacking a party means that UKIP will have been able to rant incessantly about the EU but not be considered “negative”

*the issues covered, the types of images used, and whether the party talked about its opponents.

Christ these threads are not even folk discussing issues they are just going i support this party

Unforunately we can’t all be paragons of even-handedness like yourself.

I wasn’t actually defending the Tories, I was just pointing out the Labour’s NHS assertions were hyperbole and that relying on them and even more unfounded allegations of corruption are unlikely to get them much further with the electorate than they have in the last two elections.

Its blindingly obvious that the tories are not trusted on the NHS and its not hard to see why.

Not that obvious – this poll had Cameron ahead – but generally it is fair to say the NHS is a much better issue for Labour, but tis alone is insufficient to win an election.

I wasn’t actually defending the Tories, I was just pointing out the Labour’s NHS assertions were hyperbole and that relying on them and even more unfounded allegations of corruption are unlikely to get them much further with the electorate than they have in the last two elections.

Quite, but how dare you continue with such sober analysis!! 😉

Not that obvious – this poll had Cameron ahead

😀 but a tad old mefty, c’mon 😀

I was just pointing out the Labour’s NHS assertions were hyperbole and that relying on them and even more unfounded allegations of corruption are unlikely to get them much further with the electorate than they have in the last two elections.

You mean like the tories assertion that labour ‘crashed the economy’? This is my point, building a popular narrative (god I hate that word) and telling the truth are not necessarily dependent on one another.

On a related note, I wonder how the tories are planning on spinning a new financial crisis if and when it happens on their watch. This time even they won’t be able to blame it on the labour party.

True dazh, you may have a point. Just look north of the border…the currency is an asset (no really), the NHS is safe in our hands (no re… 😉 ), we are anti-austerity but can still compete on low corporation tax etc (ditto)

And it was swallowed hook, line and sinker without any reference to their record in power. Remarkable!

Politics eh? The next thing will be asking these chancers to run more and more of the economy. Imagine that?!?

You mean like the tories assertion that labour ‘crashed the economy’? This is my point, building a popular narrative (god I hate that word) and telling the truth are not necessarily dependent on one another.

Thing is, that its no good calling it a lie when theres an element of truth in it.

I refer you back to the comments by Blair in ‘A Journey’ and Joshua Chambers that I quoted some time ago here: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/question-for-those-who-voted-conservative/page/2

its the fact that when the Conservatives were building the narrative of of ‘crashing the economy’ Labour chose not to engage with it, but distance themselves from the past and either ignore the allegations, or castigate them as a ‘bare faced lie’ and refuse to accept any responsibility – if they had said “yes we made some mistakes but it wasn’t all our fault” then people probably would have taken that on board, but Labours position of flat denial was, and remains, untenable.

Blair was spot on in his analysis on this.

On a related note, I wonder how the tories are planning on spinning a new financial crisis if and when it happens on their watch. This time even they won’t be able to blame it on the labour party.

If we stay in, its because of the EU, if we leave, its because we left the EU, either way its not the Tories fault, it was decided by referendum (They have been taking notes from the SNP 😉 )

I was at a conference in C’bridge at the time of the first poll that indicated a yes in the Scottish indie vote – I was with two senior Tory and Labour ministers/shadows at the time and challenged them both on why they did not counter the blatant lies being spouted by yS.

Apparently, this is not the current strategy (as taught by the pros (sic) coming from the US). They prefer not to go to head-to-head but rather to move to their own ground instead. Almost cost us all in Scotland. Pretty crass advice IMO

Labour tried unsuccessfully to blame the banks – with Brown always referring to the Global Financial crisis caused by the banks as a ploy. Worked for a bit, but not enough in the end.

The more rabid Tories/tolerant UKIPers 😉 try the same with migrants now

if they had said “yes we made some mistakes but it wasn’t all our fault”

So the labour party is required to be balanced and even-handed, whilst the tories are allowed to throw around blatantly untrue accusations whilst denying their own culpability? It really is amazing the difference in standards that the two sides have to uphold.

As an aside, where are we on the resignations versus sackings pendulum these days? Are resignations still on top?

So the labour party is required to be balanced and even-handed, whilst the tories are allowed to throw around blatantly untrue accusations whilst denying their own culpability? It really is amazing the difference in standards that the two sides have to uphold.

Helps when you’ve got virtually all of the press and media under your control/on side to ‘set the agenda’ doesn’t it.

Unforunately we can’t all be paragons of even-handedness like yourself.

[s]A not unfair criticism in the main to be fair but this is not a debate its just tories citing things. [/s]\sorry I meant to deny I am partidan and that I am bashing one side and explain how my comments were moderate, fair and reasonable…you know like you did 😉
No issue with the even handed nature of the rest of your post 😀
Keep it up 😛

So the labour party is required to be balanced and even-handed, whilst the tories are allowed to throw around blatantly untrue accusations whilst denying their own culpability? It really is amazing the difference in standards that the two sides have to uphold.

As THM said: “history is written by the winners” – or as Tony Blair put it:

If Labour wants to come back, it has to realise just how quickly defeat has altered the political landscape. It means the Tories get to clear up the economic deficit and define its nature, and can do so while pointing the finger of blame at the previous government.

Helps when you’ve got virtually all of the press and media under your control/on side to ‘set the agenda’ doesn’t it.

You mean like Blair did?

Just answer the question- its not even a question
Obviously having the press repeat the lie helps them tremendously and no one – well you can “argue” anything” would argue the press is anythign other than mainly on The tory side – and the BBC increasingly scared of annoying them whilst the charter issue is real.

Short term history is written by the winners long term it is not.

As THM said: “history is written by the winners” – or as Tony Blair put it:

There’s a huge difference between defining recent history, and changing the goalposts which allows one party to pretty much say anything they like with no comeback, whereas the other party must show complete transparency, honesty and objectivity. I use the word very advisedly, but we are still supposed to have some form of democratic accountability.

The last thing labour needs is anyone reporting anything they say at the moment. A media blackout could only help JC in the polls.

😀

especially given the blatant media bias!! 😉

Brown shirts at Auntie

Apparently, this is not the current strategy (as taught by the pros (sic) coming from the US). They prefer not to go to head-to-head but rather to move to their own ground instead. Almost cost us all in Scotland. Pretty crass advice

But you won! Doesn’t that vindicate the strategy?

No it’s doesn’t. That’s the danger of “winning” – far too easy to draw the wrong conclusions as the Crosby stuff highlights only too well.

yS came very close to pulling off one of the great con tricks of recent political history – not seen since the lies over the original entry into Europe. At least in that case the guilty parties have largely admitted their deceipt.

Democratic accoutability? For better or worse, isn’t that the point of elections?

There’s a huge difference between defining recent history, and changing the goalposts which allows one party to pretty much say anything they like with no comeback, whereas the other party must show complete transparency, honesty and objectivity. I use the word very advisedly, but we are still supposed to have some form of democratic accountability.

Like it, don’t like it, no skin off my nose – it worked!

You could argue that what the Tories did with the economy is exactly what Labour successfully did with NHS privatisation and student loans, but you don’t seem to be overly upset about them lying through their teeth to create a false narrative on those issues…

Apparently the Shadow cabinet was briefed that May elections will be “not so good” (my quote)

Major loss of council seats and control in a number of Midland constituencies (exactly the sort of ground they must be winning to regain power)
Loss of their effective majority in the Welsh parliament
Loss of every FPTP seat in Holyrood with only representation coming from awards of seats on overall vote percentage

Rumours of more senior departures

Who said that?

briefed that May elections will be “not so good” (my quote)

😀

but you don’t seem to be overly upset about them lying through their teeth to create a false narrative on those issues…

On the contrary, a cursory look through my past posts on this and other subjects will show that I’m no apologist for new labour and their disastrous experiments with PFI etc. However the technicalities of hospital and school building and university funding hardly amount to a ‘narrative’ on a par with ‘ labour crashed the economy’ or some other fiction like ‘fixing the roof when the sun is shining’ etc.

Loss of their effective majority in the Welsh parliament, if that comes true then Labour are well and truly f**ked. The whole cynical point of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly were to cement Labours position in those areas. It’s possible that within 15 years of them being setup that they’ll control neither!

Was Blair Labours answer to David Lloyd-George? I don’t think that was the legacy he was looking for 😆

Just like how Labour were due a crushing defeat at the last by-election and the National Front would make massive gains at the last French election.

It’s a shame when dreams don’t match up to reality isn’t it jamba – but it’s ok your astonishing ability to blithely carry on convincing yourself how right you are about everything remains undimmed. 😆

he whole cynical point of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly were to cement Labours position in those areas. It’s possible that within 15 years of them being setup that they’ll control neither!

The pint of the Scotch Parliament was to head off the independence movement – the Scotch should be given enough power so that they didn’t want to bother asking for more. Unfortunately many in the electorate thought the Scottish government did such an amazing job that they should go independent!

It’s all good news that labour lost control of London, Scotland and Wales (and were never really in NI), all of which devolved – it’s called functioning democracy.

Unfortunately many in the electorate thought the Scottish government did such an amazing job that they should go independent!

No danger of that with the Welsh Assembly 😆

The whole cynical point of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly were to cement Labours position in those areas.

Probably why they used PR in both assemblies- to cement their power it woud clearly be an effective method.

By all means object to them but at least try and make the reason one that is real and not just a fiction of your own making

your astonishing ability to blithely carry on convincing yourself how right you are about everything remains undimmed.

Its the only faculty he has that has not been dimmed 😉

it’s called functioning democracy.

I suppose attempting to gerrymander constituency borders, excluding swathes of (mostly poor) people from the electoral role, cutting direct govt funding for opposition parties, and changing the law to undermine the financial security of your main competitor also fit into your neat concept of ‘functioning democracy’? Some others might call it a flagrant and transparent attempt to rig future elections but I guess that depends on what side of the fence you’re on.

…attempting to ungerrymander constituency borders…