We have established clearly that a minority of the population are Christians and that all the major Christian festivals actually are rooted in a far older tradition. For example most of the symbols used at Christmas come from a far older tradition. Most people don’t get married in church etc yet you still think its a Christian country.

Not sure that much, if any of that is relevant. Can’t be bothered to argue though as I’ve spent the afternoon at an excellent church service, with an awesome choir organized by my ever-loving and bike-purchasing-tolerant wife, and I don’t want to end up with the usual bitter taste of STW in my mouth.

Anyway, it doesn’t much matter: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever 🙂

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever

😯 😯 That sounds a bit like something a mass murderer says before pulling the pin; proper sinister!

No offence, like. (especially if you are a serial killer…)

As an Australian born and raised I must say how surprised how unBritish I found both London and Cardiff. Sitting in the nonEU passport queue I would have not been surprised if I landed in the middle east!
I know that in my country there are various movements to stop Xmas celebrations in public schools as well as in major cities in fear of upsetting minority groups.
I think this is political correctness gone mad.

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log, Italy with a witch flying on a broomstick…

I suppose neither of those countries could be classed as Christian on the STW criteria 🙄

Does it actually matter if we live in a Christian country or not?

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log

Go on?

I think this is political correctness gone mad.

Stark raving bonkers mate. I hope you weren’t too traumatised by all those middle-eastern types in the non-EU queue with you. Although if I was you I would bugger-off back to Australia away from all this madness.

Don’t forget to tell the all folks back home will you, we wouldn’t them coming over here and getting all disappointed like you.

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log

Surely that’s on Boxing Day ?

Surely that’s on Boxing Day ?

I haven’t got a clue what he’s talking about.

OK Don S – “regions of the political creation known as Spain, which may or may not identify themselves as independent entities” Celebrate Christmas with a Shitting Log – happy now 😉

The post-festive crap I assume ?

We have a very thin veneer of Christianity over much older traditions and what little influence the Christian churches have are an fading anachronism

Oh, is that what this is about?

That’s easy. We’re a largely secular society, it’s just that many people within that society don’t feel comfortable enough to admit it yet.

It’s too late for my generation, but I’m hoping our kids are going to make a stand. Hey, we fixed homophobia, it’s someone else’s go.

The post-festive crap I assume ?

Which is a distant relative of the British pre Christmas tradition of spouting shite?
Non the wiser Z-11, sorry.

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log

Oh yes, this is true, though it may only be catalan

DS – Tio de Nadal?

Christmas’ Traditions in Barcelona

This?

Catalans. So nothing to do with the Spanish.

hugor – Member

As an Australian born and raised I must say how surprised how unBritish I found both London and Cardiff.

London and Cardiff can’t be unBritish, since they’re part of Britain. They can only differ from the version of Britishness in your head.

London and Cardiff can’t be unBritish, since they’re part of Britain. They can only differ from the version of Britishness in your head

And catalonia cannot be unSpanish nor The Basque country nor benidorm

And catalonia cannot be unSpanish nor The Basque country nor benidorm

Best tell them then.

Catalans. So nothing to do with the Spanish.

Not Spanish ? Do Catalans have to go through non-EU queue ? Those two happy crappers have a touch of the middle-eastern brush about them.

And catalonia cannot be unSpanish nor The Basque country nor benidorm

Best tell them then.

I did, i told them in Spanish too and they pretended not to understand me!

Do Catalans have to go through non-EU queue ?

The French don’t have to go through the non-EU queue either and they’re not Spanish, your point is ernesto?
Check out the naughty little wink I put after as well and the fact that some of the Catalans themselves might have a different viewpoint.

I did, i told them in Spanish too and they pretended not to understand me!

Little buggers, the lot of them.

We have established clearly that a minority of the population are Christians

No we haven’t. You’ve made that assertion several times but never provided any evidence other than your own word despite there being evidence to the contrary.

and that all the major Christian festivals actually are rooted in a far older tradition.

but in spite of this most people continue with a “chirstianised” version of the ‘orginal’ tradition rather than reverting to a secular/aetheist format.

Most people don’t get married in church etc yet you still think its a Christian country.

43% of First Marriages in England & wales (2008 ONS data) were religious (i,e, not civil ceremonies)… …thats pretty significant… even more so in Scotland where the number is 48% religious across ALL weddings (not just first marriages – so probably > half of first marriages – but the data isn’t presented in the same format).

what little influence the Christian churches have are an fading anachronism

actually I think they still have way too much influence and I’m really surprised at YOU saying the UK is not “a Christian Country” as it seem to suggest YOU are quite happy with the current level of involvement of the Church in influencing politics etc. and from all the people on here, if there was one person who would be arguing against it it would be you. Your repeated assertion that we are not a christian country seems to suggest the current level of church involvement in the state is so insignificant that it doesn’t matter. I’d much rather we were a properly secular society rather than this backdoor officially-christian-but-nobody-cares-unless-the-dailymail-stirs-it-up pseudo-secularism we seem to have.

I know you don’t have any kids TJ but if you did and sent them to your nearest non-denominational scottish primary school. Would you expect them to:

– get involved in a nativity play
– go to Church at Christmas and Easter and sing Christian Hymns
– pray to god at those services
– learn more about the Bible and Bilical stories than any other recognised religion
– be taught about Christmas as “a Christian Festival celebrating the birth of Christ”

That is only some examples. You will have the option that your child doesn’t participate in this, but nobody will highlight it to you unless you’ve made a fuss at some point to point out you might be “different”. Would you then be the one parent in the class who excludes his child from (what to a 5 yr old look like) the fun stuff the other kids do?

Oh and by the way, just in case you don’t know, anything the teacher tells your 4/5/6 yr old child is considered by the child as absolute fact, and if you dispute it you are wrong…

All the data presented on this thread Even by those who believe this country to be Christian one shows its a minority who are. A minority of weddings as you admit and weddings are the most common time fore people to go to church. Congregations are tiny , ageing and falling.

Non denominatial schools in Scotland had when I went almost no religious content. Voluntary attendance at church services 3 times a year ( but most went) No nativity play ever, no daily prayer – infact no prayers at all, no compulsory religious education and very few did the classes on offer. It was an almost completely secular education. Thus there would be no need to exclude my child.

Why you think the fact I understand that the christians are a minority a means I thick the level of christian influence in the affairs of state is acceptable I don’t know – one does not follow the other

Would you then be the one parent in the class who excludes his child from (what to a 5 yr old look like) the fun stuff the other kids do?

Of course he would.

All the data presented on this thread Even by those who believe this country to be Christian one shows its a minority who are.

All? Are you sure? Even the census?

Though if you’re still here arguing, let’s go back to my question which was too awkward for you to answer (at least Northwind had a go). Why is the premise I base it on wrong? Just to remind you, here it is again (I’ve edited the countries the other way round, as that seemed to confuse you last time):

So you’re living in a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people don’t believe in God. You move to a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God. What fundamental differences do you notice?

Or how about this supplementary which also appeared to be too awkward:

So what characteristics would you expect to see in a Christian country (and how would that differ from what you encounter in this country)?

aracer – Member

All? Are you sure? Even the census?

The census figures take no effort to discredit, but you’re right, it shouldn’t just be ignored.

The major “Christian festivals” actually have almost nothing to do with Christianity being pre Christian festivals with a thin veneer of Christianity laid on them and the symbols mainly being prechristian

It’s irrelevant that the major high days and holidays of the UK are reworked or inspired or heavily influenced by pre-Christian events and rituals. They are only important now because they are Christian holidays, not because they were once also pre-Christian events. Indigenous Pre-Christian holidays are an irrelevance and a mere footnote in the UK: no-one GAF about the solstices, beltane and samhain.

TJ, you really are a prat aren’t you. The question is, is the UK a christian country. So how can we read that, you could say are the people living in the UK christian, or is the UK a country founded and developed on christian beliefs.

Although you try and discredit the census figures, when asked the question someone says they are a christian, they are saying that is how they see themselves.

Most people are not Christians in the sense that they go to church, but they don’t see themselves as Wicca, as Muslim, as Hindu, etc, But they don’t see themselves areligious either and that is crucial. So when asked what religion you are they make the easy choice.

The UK is a developing society as all are, the laws we have are the result of a christian moral code, do you see infanticide as acceptable? do you see animal sacrifice as acceptable? because these were things that were acceptable. But if your definition of a christian is someone that follows every word of the bible then there are no christians alive today, it is not possible as the bible is contradictory.

A few questions, do we swear on the bible? do we blame god for things, do we use the name of jesus as a cry for help, do people still pray at times of adversity, are there still nativity plays, do we celebrate christianized versions of festivals?

Why don’t we celebrate Divalli, Samhain, the summer solstice, the vernal equinox?

The very simple fact you are too stupid to see is that the UK is the way the UK is because of christianity. If the Angles had remained pagan then the country we are in would not be the way it is, the influence of Christianity is waining but it is there and most people can see it.

Why are 25% of primaries CoE? why in the last century were most schools attached to churches.

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever

That sounds a bit like something a mass murderer says before pulling the pin; proper sinister!

No offence, like. (especially if you are a serial killer…)

Handel’s Messiah! Good grief, it’s a cultural desert in this place.

and just in case you are too stupid to understand the meaning of the founding of the UK, i mean the country commonly referred to as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, i am not reffering to the Roman province of Brittania, the tribal region of the Dobunni, the Danelaw, the kingdom of Wessex, etc.

Why is our Monarch a German? or is that your problem? the Stuarts got kicked out and you feel betrayed. And yes i now you are a plastic scot, but in the same way the most anti smokers are ex smokers, i guess the most scottish are the fake scots.

And yes i now you are a plastic scot, but in the same way the most anti smokers are ex smokers, i guess the most scottish are the fake scots.

This is, I think, an uncalled for and irrelevant personal attack. Why don’t you go and have a nice cup of tea?

A cup of tea is what we all need now.

mrmo – Member

Why are 25% of primates CoE?

Perhaps the other 75% are a little more intelligent than we think?

do we use the name of jesus as a cry for help

No, more of an exclamation of frustration!

TJ – All the data presented on this thread Even by those who believe this country to be Christian one shows its a minority who are.

Ehhh… apart from the census. The only data I recall was a “survey” on behalf of the Humanists (who have an agenda) which asked the same question as the Census and got similar data; then asked a suplimentary question which doesn’t dismiss the original one but challenges your understanding of what it means to be “Christian”.

A minority of weddings

so we were a Christian country 15 years ago?

as you admit and weddings are the most common time fore people to go to church.

I suspect funerals might be more common. Purely from my anecdotal evidence whilst humanist/non-religious ceremonies are on the increase they are still the minority. I would speculate that will change as older generations (of “believers”) die out.

Congregations are tiny , ageing and falling.

Even the church (well some of them) will tell you attendance at church is not essential to being a Christian. I can’t find any viewing figures for Songs of Praise but I suspect they would make interesting reading (if other factors like scheduling effects can be separated). I read somewhere a long time ago that more people watch SoP than go to Church. The bible doesn’t mention the possibility of televisual worship so I guess that doesn’t count as Christian participation! The fact it is produced by the state broadcaster at a relatively prime time slot might be seen as further evidence of a Christian country!

Non denominatial schools in Scotland had when I went almost no religious content.

There was definitely more when I was there (which I think was about the same time as you). Enquiries with teachers in Glasgow suggest that it is still similar, although it varies with Head teacher.

Voluntary attendance at church services 3 times a year ( but most went)

so it was expected you would go to church (and still is) how can that be the case in a “non-Christian” Country? Why are we expecting 5 yr olds to worship a god that most of the country doesn’t believe in?

No nativity play ever,

there was none at my school that I recall, but it does seem to be the norm – every school in this town does one.

no daily prayer – infact no prayers at all,

no compulsory religious education and very few did the classes on offer.

RE as a “subject” is incredibly unpopular, but RE as part of the school’s Social / Moral / Citizenship education, has as far as I recall, always been pretty much mandatory. At primary school where the subject boundaries are not clear – I remember learning bible stories (but no others). My son had covered Adam and Eve, Samson, the Good Samaratan, Noah etc; as well as some New Testament stuff. The sum total of the other religions has been a little bit on “Diwali”.
So you are comfortable for your hypothetical children to be raised having these “Christian” beliefs applied to them? I can just about rationalise it on the basis “well its a Christian country, so understanding the traditions and values of that is part of growing up here” but if I lived in TJland then I’d be outraged that schools were still doing the churches brainwashing for them in country that wasn’t even Christian.

Aracer – Of course he would.

Oh its maybe just as well he doesn’t have any kids then. They will get bullied enough because there dad still rides a tag-a-long without being immediately identified as “different”.

Northwind – The census figures take no effort to discredit

Really? is that what we should do with any part of the census where we don’t like the answer or the findings don’t support our answer?

Just thought of another question for Northwind and TJ (not that I’m expecting a sensible answer from the latter):

Did the UK used to be a Christian country? When did it stop (nearest day will do)? What particular event resulted in the change? How can you tell the difference?

A cup of tea is what we all need now.

Nice coffee morning here in 20 minutes. All welcome.

Araqcer – it has gradually moved away from being a christian country.

Now that a tiny minority of the population are christians it no longer is.

As an Australian born and raised I must say how surprised how unBritish I found both London and Cardiff. Sitting in the nonEU passport queue I would have not been surprised if I landed in the middle east!

What exactly did you find surprising about the fact that the “Non EU Passport” queue had lots of people in it that weren’t British ?

Were you expecting that queue to be full of Beefeaters in Full uniform waving Union Flags and eating Sunday Roasts ?

it has gradually moved away from being a christian country.

Question nicely avoided. I expected nothing less. Though there are some supplementaries you could have a go at – or I’ll even let you give the date of change to the nearest 10 years.