Also, ‘friend’ rode something and his bike broke.

Bike was replaced.

friend rode same thing again. Bike broke.

What’s the saying about expecting different outcomes from the same actions?

so the testers couldn’t break the bike on the same terrain? Seems to me that the problem isn’t the bike then…

Well it could be a manufacturing fault, or simply the testers are bimblers.

As an aside, I’d expect a bike marketed as an enduro bike to survive a season being raced by privateers on the EWS circuit. Which includes stages that are considered DH runs. So I hope a red isn’t the limit of their testing.

If not, it’s a trail bike.

Love this. Somehow I doubt think a red route is the limit of their testing

So it’s a UK tested (and therefore designed if not built) fs enduro bike with chainstays and a redesign.

So not a spec, trek etc etc.

Not an orange as no seatstays.

Almost undoubtedly not steel, as that really doesn’t break unless something went very wrong and if it bent you’d say bent. Possibly a failed weld mind but again, you’d call that what it is, not a broken stay. So not likely starling, btr, cotic etc

Possibly a bird? Not aware of any recent redesigns though.

[Edit] looking back I’m not sure where full sus came from, probably an assumption based on it being marketed as an enduro bike, rather than a bike on which you might do enduro.

As an aside, I’d expect a bike marketed as an enduro bike to survive a season being raced by privateers on the EWS circuit.

But those people are actually pretty good, they could probably race all season on a uci weight limit road bike and not break it, though i imagine their times would suffer. Unless your mate is actually a pro racer it’s a pointless comparison. (I know a few “fast” people who can’t ride for toffee, they just hammer through everything destroying gear, your mate isn’t one of those is he?)

Really, try not to guess please. iI’ll ask the mods to remove it.

Nah he went lb so guessing some American 😉

Unless your mate is actually a pro racer it’s a pointless comparison.

Maybe. *cough*

The idea they could get a road bike to last all season is complete BS though, they are hard on bikes. The sheer speed they carry through rock gardens and stiff setups imparts a lot of force into the frames.

So you have a bike that has been fixed, get out and ride it, if it happens again then get something else, if it’s sponsored and gifted to him then suck it up and get on with it.

If the mate is a pro, he or she would of course be well aware of what to expect from their bike, and wouldn’t be not riding the new one whilst waiting on feedback from a bunch of random bimblers in the interwebz before they asked for their money back, afterall their livelihood depends on the bike and having faith in its performance. OTOH if they’re a pro and its a test bike, well that’s sort of the point.

Well, at least was one.

This thread is weird.

I think the op is getting a bit of a hard time.

Bikes aren’t indestructible, if they were they’d weigh 45lbs and you’d hurt yourself lifting them. Bikes break all the time, and I’d expect frame failures that don’t show up at testing, but do reveal themselves in normal use are probably more common that we’d all think. What you call it DH or Enduro is probably not massively important.

I guess the test is what the manufacturers does for your mate really, I think if was the manufacturer I’d be keen to have the bike back after a couple of failures at the same point and have a closer look, and replace FOC whatever had broken.

I think the op is getting a bit of a hard time.

Completely out of my depth in this thread but tend to agree.

Whilst other companies market their bikes as “Enduro” bikes, whilst the small print says “No downhill and no big jumps”.

It seems and easy opt out, when warrantying, to claim that you’ve exceeded something they haven’t defined.

It seems and easy opt out, when warrantying, to claim that you’ve exceeded something they haven’t defined.

Bingo, this is what really pisses me off. If you can’t define what you can and can’t do with the bike and inform the user what kinds of  stresses the bike was designed to be able to cope with, then I don’t believe you should be in business. Especially when you sell that bike to the individual, in person, knowing full well the type of riding they will be doing – as the question has been asked – and then say “I doubt you will break it, our team riders can’t”. Bikes that break can kill people, as can drugs that aren’t manufactured properly or improperly designed – ie my industry.

Sorry, the more I think about it – the more irate I am – partly because a few people have been trying to catch me out.

20 years of riding, dozens of bikes, including the first snappy Nukeproof Mega, only one bike broken – an Ancilotti that we cracked a weld on.

To clarify – has warranty been refused?

Wasn’t particularly trying to catch you out there but you were asking questions your info didn’t back up.

No. It’s ok Mike, I just had a mild humour breakdown. Nothings been refused yet, it’s a Sunday after all.

I’ll keep it at that for now.

There’s always your bathtube failure curve- ie defects fail fast, it doesn’t mean that the rate of failure would continue over lifespan because the products that get over the first period, probably are the strong ones, and the ones that break were weak. Which is far from ideal but could make this a combination of bad luck too.

Or, it could be a Yeti- it wouldn’t be a proper Yeti if the chainstays didn’t break while riding a red route.

Basically to me, it needs to be usefully tough- not bombproof because nobody wants the weight penalty but it should last a normal user years of reasonable stick, deal with uplifts and alps trips and racing (by which I mean, it might break but it probably won’t). It ought to feel fine riding fort william at reasonable speed but if you try and race it like a dh bike it has every right to say no…

I literally rode my old Hemlock to death, it fatigued out after years of use. That’s reasonable too. I might well do the same to my Remedy as I expect it to put up with a few more years of me casing jumps like a div and while I’m not likely to brute force break it, I will ride it in moderately demanding ways, a lot, for a long time.

I think that’s sensible Northwind, however, should they not be designed for “worse use” as in someone going at the rate of Dan Atherton down 15 minute whislter runs? Okay, so not as rocky as Fort Bill……

Like this?

Enduro? Or DH?

I don’t think it’s that relevant tbh. If you’re going racing you should be able to judge your own usage, but what percentage of enduro bikes get ridden like that, even once? I’ve raced a couple of EWS rounds but I raced them like a cowardly knobber, and so it just doesn’t really reflect. But equally I probably ride into more trees. It becomes about designing bikes for a tiny majority in that case, that’ll make them worse for the majority

For me the difference between say racing fort william on a dh bike and an enduro bike has been purely about smashing into things as opposed to flowing things more, picking lines more carefully etc. In the rocks on my Herb it really just was just steam in and let 10 inches of coil and 3kg of tyre do their job, on the Remedy it’s go light, put it in the right place, basically think it and dance it more and smash it less. And in terms of times that actually adds up to only a few seconds for me (very bad comparisons because they’re all at least a year apart and both rider and track changed) but the difference in pressure on the bike and components is pretty big. By the last couple of runs of the endurance dh I was totally just letting the bike do all the work and that was fine but I wouldn’t ask that of an enduro bike.

*and just in case, a reminder that while I race, I race slowly- all time best saw me sneak into a top quarter but usually I’m bottom half. But that probably makes me a lot more representative of the enduro bike buying public than Affy ther*

Just some bloke riding his bike into a tree 😉

I don’t think it’s that relevant tbh. If you’re going racing you should be able to judge your own usage, but what percentage of enduro bikes get ridden like that, even once? I’ve raced a couple of EWS rounds but I raced them like a cowardly knobber, and so it just doesn’t really reflect. But equally I probably ride into more trees.

I think it should at least be capable of lasting one run close to privateer pace, instead of folding in on harmless features that you wouldn’t think twice about on a Giant, Trek, Nukeproof etc. Is that really too much to ask?

LOL FFS, if it’s being billed as an “Enduro” bike – they really should be built for privateer use. Not a disposable “For Race Only” frame, that wouldn’t even make it down one EWS run.

No, that’s not reasonable. No one wants worst case on something the average Joe has to ride uphill.

Northwind speaks sense. In particular a mate broke several yetis. I’m just amazed he rode a hemlock for any length of time…..

But average Joes, should have trail bikes marketed to them…..and faster people should have proper bikes marketed to them that aren’t snappy killy death machines.

do you see where I am going here?

Gnarpoon marketing for gnarpoon riders?

Trail bikes for everyone else.

I think the op is getting a hard time largely as he’s complaining about something being vague whilst being completely evasive but by the by.

Wether the above is DH or enduro doesn’t really matter, in practice were he not sponsored i can’t imagine Dan Atherton would be getting replacement bikes from the manufacturer.

They can’t reasonably build a bike which can stand up to everything under all people. I would ruin any bike trying to get out down there at half his speed, dh bike or no (I’d probably be getting a whirly bird to hospital too), the vaguery is to allow the manufacturer to assess and say “no mate, your fault” when it is, it’s not there to prevent reasonable claims. Some companies are terrible with CS/warranty some are great, wait and see but assuming your details above are half way accurate and your in the EU the seller its going to struggle to wiggle out of their obligations as the fault is assumed to be present at purchase when an item fails within six months. Two identical failures goes a long way to saying product fault not user incompetence unless the whole bike is in terrible order from being crashed etc repeatedly and even that would be difficult to achieve in your tone frame.

Unless your mate has done something stupid [twice] and knows he is trying his luck, money back should be easy and the obvious route at this point.

do you see where I am going here?

not really, do we have to pass a test to get these bikes? are you writing off all enduro bikes based on 2 chain stays?

Oh and that Sam Hill in that there Cairns WC DH was so light through that track he was up and over everything

I wholeheartedly disagree, I think in general terms Enduro and it’s marketing as a whole has given rise to a lot of ex-dhers being sold bikes with 1250mm wheels bases, 63 to 65 degree head angles but not the strength to back up the intentions of the geometry, in the name of weight. Considering the move towards a “downhill” image in the sport – eg the use of full faces, I think that balance needs to change and the bikes need to become essentially paired down downhill bikes – with less travel and steeper seatubes.

To do otherwise in my opinion, would be negligent.

if your average Joe only got the bike he’d use marketed to him the industry would sell three enduro bikes a year and never bother building them. I for one would be riding an apoollo BSO.

People buy enduro bikes/super light road bikes etc because they want to be fast. Not because they are. Fast people are fast on anything.

Equally a bike shouldn’t fail “first” use unless you do something stupid. Your mate’s did and was replaced, because the seller agrees. See what happens this time around.

 I think in general terms Enduro and it’s marketing as a whole has given rise to a lot of ex-dhers being sold bikes with 1250mm wheels bases, 63 to 65 degree head angles but not the strength to back up the intentions of the geometryy, in the name of weight.

What are you actually basing this on though? How many snapped and failed bikes have you seen out there?

are you writing off all enduro bikes based on 2 chain stays?

No as I already said, there seems to be two types of Enduro bike

1) Paired down downhill bikes, the Nomad V4, the Saracen Ariel, the Commencal Supreme SX, the Trek Slash and the 2018 YT Capra.

2) Trail bikes that have been lengthened and steepend and slapped with the tag “enduro”.

Should “average joes” be encouraged say, to throw themselves down a run like the one in that video, on the second category of “Enduro” bike?

No as I already said, there seems to be two types of Enduro bike

1) Paired down downhill bikes, the Nomad V4, the Saracen Ariel, the Commencal Supreme SX, the Trek Slash and the 2018 YT Capra.

2) Trail bikes that have been lengthened and steepend and slapped with the tag “enduro”.

You’re probably right, and I’m though not sure i agree with the placing of the bikes you mention, it is pretty obvious which is which. Me I’m fine with the 2nd one as I’ll never need the first and i know what I’m buying is a “trail” bike in all but name, which is fine since most trail bikes seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle of 2010.

Edit: as an average Joe, no branding on a bike would encourage me to rid. down that any more than buying a sports car would make me think i could race F1. I’d either think I’m up to it or I’m not, calling my bike an enduro bike or a unicorn wouldn’t change that. As for cat 1 or 2, I’d be as likely to get to the bottom on either, and I’d be add likely to break either. Main difference is I’d be about three days not a few minutes so the risk to the bike is very little.

There’s a  bit of a middle ground between “be strong enough to survive absolutely everything that a 1%er will throw at it” and “be a snappy killy death machine”

I guess I would say though that any bike that’s marketed as an enduro bike, should be able to deal with everyday rider’s red and black route antics pretty much indefinitely- it’s hard to imagine you can make a bike that’ll stand up to the harder job of say a 10%er reasonably, that shouldn’t stand up to a 50% for a very long time, barring massive disasters.

And this is really nothing new, how many people say about Orange Fives being bombproof, when actually under long hard use they tend to crack. Actually there’s your perfect, pre-enduro example, Dave from Orange raced a Five at the Endurance Downhill one year as a publicity stunt, and IIRC did pretty well on it-  but then afterwards said that the brand new frame was written off after the race, and they would have refused a warranty claim for it.

OTOH, my #enduro bike, was never marketed as an enduro bike, it’s supposed to be a trail bike- it’s just that it became the most succesful enduro bike of all time under T-Mo, and Whotsisname Trekbloke raced it a bunch too instead of the Slash because he didn’t think it was very good. But it’ll stand up to whatever you throw at it realistically, or build into a 26lb bike if you don’t need the strength.

For me any bike being sold as Enduro should be able to withstand any UK red when ridden properly, without exception. I can ride my 20yr old Zaskar round most UK red runs if I don’t mind dealing with the pain afterwards the frame can take it.

A warranty process should be able to determine proper use:

E.g. A side impact of a rock / trunk into your carbon top tube is your fault and could happen to anyone, on any trail. It doesn’t have to be a Minnaar style crash, carbon frames are clearly not built to take that type of impact. I have taken insurance specifically for this on mine. Same goes for dinging a rim on a rock, snapping it on a case.

Stress fracture for repeated use on Red runs on an area where the frame should be able to withstand and there are no impact marks should be a replacement. e.g. Seat tube / top tube, assuming all is correctly torqued etc and you are not bringing it back with a busted shock and rim at the same time. There is simply no excuse, especially if you know many others with the same bike, damage in the same area and a redesign since your purchase. I have no idea about your case but have seen this personally in the past.

I see many Capra’s / Strive’s and the like at Swinley, there is no way any manufacturer can say that the reds at Swinley are pushing those bikes to even 50% of their capability. Bike Park Wales / FW and you are getting closer but still well within what they are being sold for. The rental bike provided at BPW for anything outside of pro trails last time I went was a carbon Trek enduro, not a DH beast.

That is all 🙂

I rode the trails in the video, and rougher on my Norco Sight and it didn’t break. (No where near the same speed obviously). And I fully expect my Patrol to be handle being ridden in the bike park for a few hours every week for a few seasons without it break. Now Transition did make the frames heavier and stronger this year, but I’d expect the same from any other Enduro bike too. If the bike in question is snapping in the same place JRA then there’s clearly a problem.

OP, I can maybe see why you won’t mention the bike in question, but why not he feature? It’s not doing you any favours.

Sillysilly +1

Maybe its its because I work QA and someone in QAQA wou either get fired or my company would get shutdown by the MHRA if something similar happened. I’m fairly uncompromising, it’s probably just that my opinion has been skewed by the industry I work in.

Warranties primarily are there to protect against anything that is the fault of the manufacture…so manufacturing issues basically. They won’t take any responsibility for what the rider is doing. And the warranty will usually be voided if you’re racing, you can’t expect a frame to last as long if it is being raced week in week out. A good rider can take a 20 ft gap jump and will land it nicely and won’t stress the frame….a luddite like me will take on a 3 ft drop like a clumsy oaf and put more stress through the frame than a pro doing the 20 ft gap jump. How can you expect a manufacturer to warrant against that? so they limit their liability to manufacturing defects.

We’re very lucky in the mountain bike industry to have certain manufacturers that will quite easily replace frames under warranty…but it’s no witchcraft. When you’re paying £2800 or more for your Santa Cruz frame you’re paying a premium of about 300% or more, so that easily covers the warranty returns, so everyone overpays massively for their frames, a certain and small percentage of people will break their frame, SC replace the frame ‘no questions asked’, SC gets a great reputation which generates more sales, which generates more revenue that easily covers the cost of the warranty pay outs.

“be strong enough to survive absolutely everything that a 1%er will throw at it”

What’s a 1%er?

You are

Eh?

Sorry. I’m not up on Enduro terminology. What do you mean?

You’re overthinking it- it’s not an enduro term, it’s just a common figure of speech for a small part of a group. Like, the richest 1%, or the most demanding 1%. “We are the 99%”, remember? And Joe P 5th percentile trail centre guy doesn’t need or necessarily benefit from the same things that a top EWS rider or DH world cup racer wants.

Obviously I’m a perfect 10. Wait, percentages are out of 100? Damn it.