As the father of an awesome 2.5 yr old boy, I have my anxieties about how he’s going to develop into adulthood due to schooling, peers, media and many of society’s other ills etc (anti-social behaviour, unemployment blah blah). This isn’t me being solely negative – it’s more what I see as note of caution.

I’m a believer in education begins at home – and thankfully so is his mum. So we’re keen to do our bit and that includes supporting his moral/emotional/social development as well as his academic. But surely there are more negative influences around these days to test us?

IMO the education system has been severely dumbed down, the level of literacy is often shocking, respect for self and others is at an all time low, responsibility and accountability have been replaced with laziness and self-entitlement etc.

What’s your take on this re kids you raised in recent years or those you’re raising now?

I have a little girl of similar age and I’ve given this some thought and come to the conclusion…. **** it! You can’t do anything about all the negative influencing factors in society so just do the best job you can, you can’t do anything else. I’m sure that when I was born in the 70s my parents had concerns about similar issues, probably every parent ever has had similar concerns. Yet here we all are, educated, polite, generally happy with good incomes and the ability to make and keep good friends & partners. I suppose you just have to try and furnish them with the right attitude & wits enough to decide the wheat from the chaff in life for themselves.

I don’t have kids, however I do work in schools. By and large, schools are far better now than they were 15 years ago. As you say, education starts at home…..I went to the lowest achieving school in Stoke-on-Trent, I’ve turned out reasonably well for the most part!

Why do you feel the education system has been dumbed down? Our kid is in reception at school and the focus on literacy / numeric learning seems intense. Homework been piled on left right and centre (at 4 years old!) and a real vibrant structure to get the kids to engage. Probably a good argument to be made that it’s too much, actually, but the level of expectation is impressive.

my kids have always been very good to be honest. both did ok at school and never brought us any trouble.
then, at the age of 16, my son got his 16yr old girlfriend pregnant, me and the wife were mortified to be honest.
not only because we has always told him to be carefull, but we thought he had spoiled his chances with further education and getting a good start in life.
to be honest and fair to him, it proved the making of him. he moved out of our home and into a flat with the girl, and they made a good go of it, giving our grandaughter a good home.
they have however split up. but my son see his daughter every weekend for the whole weekend.
he then suprised us even more a few months ago, when he decided to join the army. he is currently doing his basic training at catterick barracks.
my daughter is 16 in a months time, she is doing ok at school also, tho not academic at all.
she has got good enough grades to enable her to get into a 3yr equestrian course at askham bryan collage.

so all in all, my kids are pretty good and we are well proud of em….. 8)

IMO the education system has been severely dumbed down

Have you been in a school since you left?

Teachers now work harder and with more focus than ever before.

Each child is given targets (using some relatively complex mechanisms) in all the core subjects that have to be met each year from Reception through to GCSE’s. OFSTED will not give schools outstanding unless these targets are met.

Every lesson has to have a plan with a list of desirable outcomes and an indication as to how work will be differentiated between children of different abilities.

My children are 11 and 16. My son is doing his gcse’s this year and my daughter SAT’s. Both have probably far more skills in terms of understanding how the English language works, far more practical knowledge of maths and a deeper understanding of science than I did at their respective ages.

My wife is a deputy head at a primary school. From what I’ve seen the only thing holding children back is their parents lack of willingness to engage with the education system.

If you want to give your children the best start try and understand what the teachers are doing and why and see how you can support them in achieving it. All the bollocks about Gove doign them over continually aside teachers are professionals who understand *how* children learn and do their best to make that learnign both effective and fun.

*and breathe*

Biggest lesson I’ve learned – teenage boys are still lumbering monosylabbic reclusives and girls seem to become teenagers at about the age of 11.

Yes the sexualisation of pre teens in society concerns me more than the education issues.

respect for self and others is at an all time low, responsibility and accountability have been replaced with laziness and self-entitlement etc.

That’s the fault of parents, not teachers.

I was the father of an awesome 2.5 year old boy.. my partner and I thought along the same lines as you.. he was doing great, waaay ahead of every kid that we met academically and socially..

Everyone at his pre-school adored him.. he was an absolute joy to be around.. an inspiration.. we were bursting with pride and more than a bit surprised at how we’d done so well..

Then son number two came along..

We are now the proud parents of two very average boys.. they fight, hate, and they are selfish.. wild, obstinate, unbearable and belligerent are words that have replaced keen, perceptive, intelligent, advanced, disciplined, restrained, orderly and respectful..

So there you have it.. if you want your kids to start school on a level playing field, provide a sibling and watch your perfect creation fall apart..

the level of literacy is often shocking, respect for self and others is at an all time low

It’s interesting this – my wife teaches 18+ year olds and yes, I’d say more than half of them can’t spell or string a written sentence together to save their lives! My son is 10 and his reading/writing/spelling are pretty much on a par, or probably even better, than mine were at the same age.
His school also teaches respect for self and others as part of the curriculum.
So… maybe… its THATCHER’S fault 😉

I wouldn’t say it has been dumbed down either. Far from it in my experience. My lad is in reception class and his progress in reading and writing since he started has been very impressive. He gets homework every night and two different reading books per week.

Also the school seems to have a community feel about it that certainly didn’t exist when I was that age in the early 70’s. Sadly it means that I have to sack off my Saturday ride in a couple of weeks to take him on a sponsored walk.

My daughter is turning into a woman. She was an average primary school pupil until she started high school now she is an average high school pupil with hormones and attitude.

Ho him.

No kids, just godsons. But after nearly 40 years on this planet and a keen people-watcher I would say there’s just one thing your kids really need from you and that’s self-respect.

It seems to cross the divide of rich and poor, highly educated vs less educated, private vs public sector, worker vs big cheese.

The people who cause the most trouble, have the most difficult relationships, have drug, drink and sex issues, are prejudiced, aggressive/bullying or just downright angry etc etc generally have deep personal issues around self-esteem… you see it everywhere.

With self-respect you tend to like yourself, have confidence, treat people well, have self-belief and attract like-minded people.

IME self-respect comes from how your parents treat you, how they behave themselves and how they treat each other…

spacemonkey you’ve been reading too many Daily Mail articles, try looking at the real world. I have a 6 year-old at school and I can’t believe how hard he’s pushed academically. Where do you get the idea that the education system has been dumbed down?

Hmm, interesting.

the sexualisation of pre teens in society concerns me more than the education issues

Yep, I’d go with that. Not sure what the answer is.

Why do I think the educ system has been dumbed down?

– 1) I know a lot of teens who are “top set”, but there’s honestly no way they’d be anything more than “second set” at my old school. And my school wasn’t anything special. Some of them are great kids, but academically they’re really not nearly as bright or literate as I’d expect. That’s not meant to sound harsh – it’s just my observation.

– 2) it seems that teachers have their hands tied more and more with red tape, paperwork and results-oriented focus at the expense of “getting on” with the class.

Read this

respect for self and others is at an all time low, responsibility and accountability have been replaced with laziness and self-entitlement etc.

Hmm, some rose tinted glasses in play there!

respect for self and others is at an all time low, responsibility and accountability have been replaced with laziness and self-entitlement etc.

“The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of
today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for
parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as
if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is
foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.”

That was a guy called Peter the Hermit, in 1274 😉

Everyone does it – I look at yoof now and think that we were never that bad. Then I remember blowing up post boxes with home-made explosives, letting off stink bombs in school, and terrorising our helpless teachers.

Our daughter is almost 3 – one thing I’ve worked out is that kids are all individuals – you can show them by example the good ways to behave, but they have to decide for themselves.

i think we tend to worry far to much about our kids.
schools in the main are good places, run by good people….that, mixed with good rules at home tends to make most kids turn into good adults.

Every lesson has to have a plan with a list of desirable outcomes and an indication as to how work will be differentiated between children of different abilities.

really? shit must stop wasting time here!!

As for the literacy point, I am sure it has improved greatly in the last 20 years but it has become easier to spot those that struggle with it. I difference may be a lack of emphasis on grammar amongst those that dont struggle combined with the fact most young people dont see the finer points of grammar as important and I tend to agree with them to an extent.

They have become more expensive, having kids is like starting to upgrade your bike, it’ll make you happy and leave you broke. 🙂

– 1) I know a lot of teens who are “top set”, but there’s honestly no way they’d be anything more than “second set” at my old school. And my school wasn’t anything special. Some of them are great kids, but academically they’re really not nearly as bright or literate as I’d expect. That’s not meant to sound harsh – it’s just my observation.

Not having a pop but you might want to challenge your own observation – it’s pretty negative. Personal observation is a dangerous thing as it’s full of biases and inaccuracies and rarely gives the full picture. Better off judging the education system based on empirical data…

My son is 18 and about to take his final A level exams. They reckon he’ll be getting A’s across the board.

How did we get there then? Well, he’s always been a sensitive, well rounded, thoughtful and generally very nice person. That’s way more important to me than any exam results. He needs to take full credit for that, it’s nothing to do with us.

Education-wise we’ve fretted constantly. Put simply, he’s lazy. He meanders along just doing enough here and there. If his grades drop below par he’ll put a bit extra in until they get where they need to be and then he’ll plateau again. He’s bright enough to do exceptionally well but I’d always resigned myself to him being a mediocre student. So how is he getting A’s?

I think the current system is centred more around his type of approach to life myself. It allows people to peak lower at regular intervals along the way and then tail off again until the next demand comes in rather than building up pace over two years and then massively peaking at the end.

He’d fail the system that I went through for sure. Does that make the modern system better? Possibly. Dunno. He’ll hopefully get good grades and go to uni.

Difficulty? The maths stuff he goes through is very simple, nowhere near what we did at AO level never mind A level. The economics and buisiness studies stuff while being very useful I’m sure, is not taxing in any way. It’s all basic stuff with the odd gem thrown in. I sincerely hope that uni takes them through some hugely more advanced stuff otherwise they’ve got a shock coming.

Overall, I doubt much of the panicking and hand-wringing we did made very much differemce. They’re people just like us and they’ll turn out how they want. The best we can do is provide love and support and let them know whatever they do, it’s not wrong, just different.

Except those stupid trousers he wears. They’re wronger than bovril.

spacemonkey you’ve been reading too many Daily Mail articles, try looking at the real world. I have a 6 year-old at school and I can’t believe how hard he’s pushed academically. Where do you get the idea that the education system has been dumbed down?

Actually, I think we over do it in this country – they start school much later in Scandinavia, have less homework etc, and have better results at the end of it all.

What’s your take on this re kids you raised in recent years or those you’re raising now?

Firstly, not read through thread yet.

We have found, if you care about how your child turns out, the biggest threat to the development of your child is the other children they mix with. If you are lucky enough to be able to afford private schooling you don’t have this issue, but for us less fortunate souls things aren’t so rosy.

If you believe in any of the following:

Manners
Honesty
Respect
The Law
Age Ratings/Certifications
Decorum

you will probably be an outsider.

That’s our experience, I don’t doubt that others experiences may not match this.

No kids, just godsons. But after nearly 40 years on this planet and a keen people-watcher I would say there’s just one thing your kids really need from you and that’s self-respect.

It seems to cross the divide of rich and poor, highly educated vs less educated, private vs public sector, worker vs big cheese.

The people who cause the most trouble, have the most difficult relationships, have drug, drink and sex issues, are prejudiced, aggressive/bullying or just downright angry etc etc generally have deep personal issues around self-esteem… you see it everywhere.

With self-respect you tend to like yourself, have confidence, treat people well, have self-belief and attract like-minded people.

IME self-respect comes from how your parents treat you, how they behave themselves and how they treat each other…

Well said.

They reckon he’ll be getting A’s across the board.

How did we get there then?

Genetics is a big factor, don’t kid yourself!

The maths stuff he goes through is very simple, nowhere near what we did at AO level never mind A level

How much calculus did you do at O level?

Quite a bit at AO if I remember rightly, we are going back thirty years though.

Samuri is my dad from 10 years ago and I claim my £5

edit, And Samuri Jr is me from 10 years ago! Same subjects and everything! 😯

pull your trousers up!

Dad, you just don’t understand!

*storms off to room to listen to slipknot really loud*

If you instil in your kids the “right values” they will be fine at school and in life.If anything I would be worried about how much pressure children are under throughout their school lives,far more than I ever had.

Cant comment on maths but A level biology seems to me to be a lot harder than 30 years ago. The maths might not have things you did but it might have other equally challenging bits to it.

If you instil in your kids the “right values” they will be fine at school and in life

Provided you know what the RIGHT VALUES actually are 🙂

When I did GCSE maths it didn’t have calculus on it but did have a lot more fluffy stuff other than actual hardcore traditional stuff.

I guess with 3 teenage boys I have a few perspectives – 2 of my sons, I split from their mum 14 years ago, lived with their mum until a couple years ago and now live with their Nan. Youngest son (I’ve been his only but non-biological dad for 12 years) lives with me and his mum.

Eldest son, 19 has a few issues (eyesight is RP + Aspergers), went to good comp’ school was very worried about him last year after finishing business studies course. He did the archetypal sitting in his room, incommunicative playing violent games and only communicating via skype with unknown people. Seems to have turned a corner with some help from CAMS & other in his special needs support area. Is currently trying to get into work, is a NEET, but is volunteering weekly for a charity. He’s at least communicating and socialising!

Middle son 17 at college, youngest son went to a pretty tough academy, certainly for our area. He worked his way through = his mum moved to the midlands 1/2 way through his GCSE’s so he suddenly had a 50 mile round trip to school but more home support via his grandparents and us for his education. Came away as one of the best educated kids from his school.

Both struggle with esteem issues but are nice enough lads if a bit socially inept & lacking in confidence. Unfortunately the paradigm that kids follow their Mum’s education pattern (she is bright but has a couple of CSE’s) seems to be true. I wanted their education to be disciplined, stable and local to a community. They attended 6 schools between 5 & 15 with their Mum in a flux of relationships.
I think the lack of stability has contributed to their lack of esteem.

Youngest son 15 currently attends one of the top Private schools (thanks to his maternal grandparents) consistently hits A’s, is on track to become a GP (his choice), is good at sport, communicative, confident…. His Mum was a nurse entered Univ after his birth and is now a Solicitor. However, he does know he’s had a privileged upbringing (compared to his step-brothers) with grandparents (retired top Univ Lecturer and retired Primary School Head) who could support and encourage his early-learning. He’s been to 2 schools his primary and secondary. Our expectation is a good univ’ (fingers crossed).

For kids to be alright these factors seem to be common – I’ve seen the same across friends with kids:

– A stable family home & school (1 or 2 parent makes no difference – it’s how the adults treat each other & the kids that count)
– kids rules that are consistent and appropriate to their age i.e. proper bed times, not allowed to watch / play video games much above their real age, encouraged / enforced – outside time off electrical stuff and some chores they have to do.
– Families who treat each other with respect and other people with respect.
All leads to kids being ok.

To The OP

I’ve got a 13 year old and a 15 year old

Get them to school a head of the pack and you are most of the way there would be my summary.

I should say that I’m a career teacher and therefore possibly biased but I’m quite well informed

I teach A level physics in a college. I see mainly good things with some problems. We do see kids who have high gcse grades and not much ability to back that up. But I also see loads of great students who seem to go onto great things. Until Facebook I only knew what one ex student had ever done with their lives. Now I’m much better informed and I know that many of them have good engineering jobs, which to my mind is the proof that the system is working

Maths standards have gone through the roof. My son at 15 has probably been taught more maths than I had at the same age. Maths education crashed and burned some where between 1982 when I did my O level and 2000 when I started teaching. It is firmly back on track now. I did do calculus at O level my son hasn’t met calculus but has done algebra and trig stuff that I didn’t do until A level.

1) I know a lot of teens who are “top set”, but there’s honestly no way they’d be anything more than “second set” at my old school. And my school wasn’t anything special.

Not sure this statement means anything as second set doesn’t have standard meaning. Is it sets 1-9 or 3 lots of sets 1-3

The other thing question is what we mean by education success. Some times we get kids a B grade in A-level physics who doesn’t have all of the middle class graces you might expect. personally I call that a success

Just for the record Gove is about linearize all exams which could change education beyond all recognition

some of you will be appalled at my typos and spelling. Sorry I’m a dyslexic teacher. I couldn’t do primary or English teaching…

Gti Junior is now 14 and has recently graduated from pizza to curry – admittedly only dhansaks and kormas but it’s a sign that his tastes are developing.

He has also started listening to Cold Play and Robert Cray, again, not a bad start.

He is also enjoying road riding and begining to have some opinions on things in general, which are signs of enjoying sport and developing a personality.

We have found, if you care about how your child turns out, the biggest threat to the development of your child is the other children they mix with. If you are lucky enough to be able to afford private schooling you don’t have this issue, but for us less fortunate souls things aren’t so rosy.

Exactly. If had a child that grew up to be as intelligent educated and successful and articulated as any photographed there I’d be pretty pleased with my parenting.

He has also started listening to Cold Play

Oh no! poor you, i’m sure you can get him help for that 😀

Exactly. If had a child that grew up to be as intelligent educated and successful and articulated as any photographed there I’d be pretty pleased with my parenting.

I’d be devastated at raising someone who used their undoubted abilities to such negative effect. And I’d be a bit fed up at having to bail them out after yet another mindless criminal act.