Hope and Trickstuff – “How much?!” content

I’ve got the previous hope e and v on two bikes.

The v are better in the super steep stuff. I prefer the e everywhere else.

I’ve been doing maths to compare hydraulic ratios between the Hopes and Trickstuff based on this spreadsheet.

My favourite spreadsheet.

Total system leverage (hydraulic + mechanical) leaderboard:

49.8 Trickstuff Maxima
41.4 Hayes Dominion A4
39.5 Trickstuff Direttissima
38.6 Magura MT5/MT7
36.1 Formula Cura4
35.6 Hope V4 Tech3
32.7 SRAM Code

unfortunately I can’t find information on the geometry of the Tech 4 lever blade

By my rough measurement of this side by side photo, they’re 85mm long from finger to pivot (30% longer than Tech3 67.5mm, which is consistent with Hope’s power increase claims). This would be a mechanical leverage ratio of 7.7 if the pivot-to-cam distance is the same, for a total system ratio of 44.8 (V4). @RickDraper could perhaps measure for us?

I will measure the Tech4’s tomorrow for you.

Thanks. Forgot to mention – the measurements are:

Middle of the pressing finger to blade pivot (mm)
Blade pivot to cam, Max (mm)

Lever blade is approximately 75mm from the middle of where my finger sits and the cam measures 12mm from the centre of the lever pivot to the centre of the pivot for the master cylinder plunger.

Greed…

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3497469/

The price of those Maximas above is mental, I think mine were £1100 roughly including import duty.

I’ve paid less than that for my three sets (2 Maxima, 1 Direttissima), new, combined…

The ones that do sell S/H tend to actually sell for RRP.

Pro tip. All the big German resellers seem to have placed speculative orders some time ago, Trickstuff work on a first come first served basis, so they are fulfilling these orders as and when, so you may not have to wait all that long (still months) if you put an order in with them, rather than paying mental money S/H, or waiting 2 years going direct, assuming they let you order.

The ones that do sell S/H tend to actually sell for RRP.

RRP feels like a fair price to me, they’re still selling at a premium compared to what they might fetch if they weren’t supply constrained but also the seller isn’t profiteering from the scarcity (like a ticket scalper for example).

Having said that, I guess that person is free to ask whatever price they like. It isn’t what I’d do but if someone pays it then I suppose there was a market after all.

My favourite spreadsheet.

Total system leverage (hydraulic + mechanical) leaderboard:

49.8 Trickstuff Maxima
41.4 Hayes Dominion A4
39.5 Trickstuff Direttissima
38.6 Magura MT5/MT7
36.1 Formula Cura4
35.6 Hope V4 Tech3
32.7 SRAM Code

Lever blade is approximately 75mm from the middle of where my finger sits and the cam measures 12mm from the centre of the lever pivot to the centre of the pivot for the master cylinder plunger.

Based on these measurements the Tech4 V4 and E4 would slot into the leaderboard like this:

49.8 Trickstuff Maxima
41.4 Hayes Dominion A4
40.2 Hope Tech4 V4
39.5 Trickstuff Direttissima
38.6 Magura MT5/MT7
36.1 Formula Cura4
35.6 Hope Tech3 V4
35.5 Hope Tech4 E4
32.7 SRAM Code

That’s pretty interesting to me as the Tech 4 V4 is pretty much at the same level as the Direttissima. Also interesting to notice that the Tech4 E4 is about equivalent to a Tech3 V4.

Lever blade is approximately 75mm from the middle of where my finger sits and the cam measures 12mm from the centre of the lever pivot to the centre of the pivot for the master cylinder plunger.

I just made these measurements on the Direttissima lever and got 69cm lever length (to the centre of where the finger sits) and 10.5mm from the centre of the lever pivot to the centre of the plunger pivot.

This means that the mechanical leverage of the Direttissima is 6.57 compared to 6.25 for the Tech4.

I’m getting into territory that I don’t fully understand now but I think that might indicate that the Tech4 could have a lower lever throw than the Direttisima at equivalent length but it is probably about the same given that the Tech4 lever is 5mm longer.

If that’s correct and given that the power output is about the same then it might be fair to say that a Tech4 V4 is very much comparable to a Direttissima.

Can anyone confirm or debunk my thinking?

I found a set of Tech4 V4 to fiddle with, squeeze and directly compare to my Direttissimas (though I didn’t get to ride them). I have some conclusions:

1. The Hopes are very nice things, really well made, everything is tight and smooth. The Trickstuffs though are a cut above even the Hope quality of finish.
2. Looks wise, the Hopes are more industrial and functional looking, the Trickstuff are sleeker and more polished (literally and figuratively). The Hope V4 calliper is frigging huge. These things are subjective and a given person might prefer one or the other depending on taste.
3. Lever feel. The Hopes have a distinctly “softer” lever feel compared to the Trickstuff. They have a longer throw between bite point and fully locked and to me it gives them a slightly vague feel compared to the Direttissima. I have a feeling that the Tricksuff Maxima might feel similar in comparison given that they also have a longer lever blade.
4. Free stroke. The Hope bite point adjust allowed me to dial in the free stroke just a tiny bit shorter than I can manage on the Direttissima. We’re talking about 15mm of free stroke on the Trickstuff and about 12mm on the Hope so it is just about perceivable.

Overall, I’d take the Hopes over every other set of brakes I’ve tried except the Trickstuff Direttissima. If I were buying a new set today I’d have trouble justifying the cost of the Trickstuff over the Hopes, but given that I already own them I would consider swapping to the Hopes to be a minor downgrade.

Again, this is just based on feel – I didn’t get to ride them.

Sorry if I missed it, but did anyone try to describe (without using stats) how Trickstuff brakes give a better ride experience than mainstream 4-pot brakes?

You can brake MUCH later. Or squeeze the lever less hard, reducing arm pump.

Sorry if I missed it, but did anyone try to describe (without using stats) how Trickstuff brakes give a better ride experience than mainstream 4-pot brakes?

Not really (tried Maximas & Dirretissimas).

My chosen set up of Code RSC’s on HS2 rotors is pretty solid. The Trickstuff brakes feel a bit nicer, lighter lever, bit more bite (not as much as a Saint though), mostly noticeable when doing the car park test. When on a trail, at pace, I would struggle to define them as a ‘better’ riding experience due to all the other noise/activity going on.

I didn’t go any quicker with them, noticeably brake any later, or have a better riding experience because of the brake & I’d challenge whether people really do. Like a lot of high end kit, are people really buying it for that extra 0.5% performance or are they buying it because its niche, expensive & blingy?

Which I have no issue with at all, I have some fancy bits because I liked the look of them too. Are the EEwings on one of my bikes any better than the XTR’s on the other? Absolutely not in reality.

A few things to mention having owned some Trickstuff Maxima’s, and owned or ridden most of the other brakes mentioned in this thread…

The Maxima’s are absolutely amazing, but the price exemplifies the law of diminishing returns, even when picked up 2nd hand for 20% below rrp… The Maxima is simply a case of applying marginal gains theory to every single component part of the brake… The master cylinder is stiffer than anything else out there, the lever runs on two cartridge bearings, everything is machined to exacting tolerances, they use 6mm braided hoses (makes it a MASSIVE pain in the arse for internal routing on any bike, big part of the reason I sold mine) rather than 5 for a bit more fluid volume, the leverage ratio is larger than any other similar brake on the market which should make them really spongy but the tolerances they’re built to mean they’re not spongy they just have fantastic modulation that really has an effect on feel at the tyre and the lever. They really are brilliant… But…

Ignoring the price, there’s a few issues… Not least of all actually getting hold of a set, or any spares. Then there’s the reality they won’t crash well compared to many other brakes. The 6mm hoses mentioned above don’t fit in many/most hose guides and for internal routing it may involve you having to physically enlarge the ports on your frame! The modulation is exceptional, but realistically, the extra power they deliver over the best of the rest is wasted… I found a 200/180 combo too much, even at over 90kg and on a Geometron being ridden pretty hard I had power in reserve. I even fitted some cheapo crap pads to them to tame the power down a bit! They’re a bit of a faff to bleed too, albeit if you follow Trickstuff’s video exactly then you will get a decent bleed on them in the end.

I haven’t had any time on Tech4’s yet due to not being able to ride for months, but have had a play with them a couple of times… Also spoke to the Hope tech guys at EWS Innerleithen about them and had a play with them on Joe Barnes’ bike there too. Simply put, the Tech3’s had FAR too much friction in the system, something which Hope had come to realise (and obviously brakes like Trickstuff had shown them what could be achieved if cost no object)… The Tech4 lever as I understand it, was designed to significantly reduce the friction in the braking system, thus leading to much less effort required at the lever for the same level of power. They also reduced the master cylinder size slightly for more leverage. Basically, following Trickstuff then… No bad thing! The Tech4 as a result seems to deliver more power and better modulation for less effort. Win/win!

Obviously that’s not the whole story though… The Hopes don’t have much if any progression to their action. We know brakes like the high end SRAM Codes and most Shimano brakes have a swing-link or some kind of a cam action, to increase the leverage as the lever goes through its travel… And whilst the Trickstuff’s don’t have this, the lever design means they do have a lot of progression built into the feel (so a regressive rate) simply because of the angle between the lever pivot point and the master cylinder being quite open, increasing leverage relative to finger effort as the lever goes through its travel… Think of a single pivot bike with a falling rate, like an old school Santa Cruz Heckler… The thought of a regressive rate on a suspension system these days sends shivers down my spine, but on a brake system the opposite is true, as you want the system to deliver more power for smaller additional lever inputs as the lever goes through its travel.

Anyway…

What’s the answer…?

Well I can’t disagree with HobNob here I’m afraid… As amazing as Trickstuff brakes are (and even the new Hope Tech4’s), brakes don’t make you go faster… Subjectively you might have a nicer riding experience, possibly a bit less hand fatigue (which can be a worthwhile reason of course for many people), but when it comes to going quickly, smooth is best… And to coin the old Pirelli phrase of “power is nothing without control”, when it comes to brakes, modulation and control are far more important than outright power if we want to ride smoothly and hence quickly…

With this in mind, you simply can’t beat SRAM Code RSC’s I don’t think… If you want more power, fit a higher friction pad or step up to a 220mm front rotor now they’re available. The modulation and control on offer from SRAM’s brakes still bests anything else IMO, and for most of us the power on offer from the Code RSC’s is enough in reality. Replacement parts also relatively easy to get hold of and won’t brake the bank if you do crash them either…

You can brake MUCH later. Or squeeze the lever less hard, reducing arm pump.

You can’t brake much later at all… The limitation in the system is always the amount of grip from the tyre. Just like you can’t brake much later on a road bike with disc brakes compared with rim brakes… What you can do is benefit from better modulation and less hand fatigue potentially. But if you can physically lock the tyre up with an existing brake in the conditions you are riding in, you simply cannot brake much later!

FWIW I have hardly ridden MTB in the last 2 years for various reasons, mostly health. Spent a lot more time on motorbikes, mostly fitted with Brembo setups of different capability. You can have too much power… Or rather you can have too little modulation on a system that’ll easily overwhelm the amount of grip available from the tyre! Modulation and feel is everything… The fastest riders in the world aren’t going fast cos they’re able to brake later than anybody else then square off the apex of the corner… They’re the fastest motorbike riders because they can feel EXACTLY the amount of grip they have, balance the braking/cornering forces with incredible accuracy through feel afforded to them by great tyres, a brilliant chassis setup and wonderfully well modulated brakes. The ability for Marquez to trail brake at over 60deg lean on his bike and feel everything that’s happening to the point where when he does lockup he can do it so gently that many times he has even picked himself up from a slide (I don’t recommend doing this BTW, he is a bit unhinged and incredibly skilful!) is nothing to do with the amount of power available from the brake, but everything to do with the amount of modulation and feel it affords him.

Also, working for a tyre company, you’d expect that I understand the limitations of your only two contact points with the ground, and the forces acting on them to try to overcome their ability to do their job effectively, better than most… 😉

Not sure if its been mentioned – some long long posts here, but maybe note that trickstuff are two piece calipers bolted together, and i wonder if that system makes for less flex in the caliper.

Hope calipers only have a small bit of metal holding the ‘two’ sections together, while trickstuff that area is reinforced by a steel bolt. The steel bolt is stronger than just plain alloy and i think gives the section more rigidity.

Not sure if its been mentioned – some long long posts here, but maybe note that trickstuff are two piece calipers bolted together, and i wonder if that system makes for less flex in the caliper.

That goes against conventional thinking though, and the main point why a few brake manufacturers still persist with monobloc calipers is they assert they can make a stiffer caliper from a single block of aluminium…

That said… I’m sure someone at Trickstuff did their FEA homework making sure the Maxima calipers were stiff enough even as a 2 piece design…

but maybe note that trickstuff are two piece calipers bolted together, and i wonder if that system makes for less flex in the caliper.

Nope,monoblock (ie machined from a single piece of aluminium) calipers are known to be far stiffer than two halves bolted together in all forms of Motorsport,so therefore i assume thats true for bicycle brakes.

Monoblock calipers are harder and presumably more expensive to make than two halves.

Having said that im sure you could make a flexy monoblock caliper if it was designed poorly

Might be more a reflection of the brakes I was running immediately prior (Various shimano, Guides), but if I braked at the same spot I’d be going noticeably slower through the following corner. Generally I’m braking a couple of bike lengths later I reckon, harder & for less time.

Sorry if I missed it, but did anyone try to describe (without using stats) how Trickstuff brakes give a better ride experience than mainstream 4-pot brakes?

Went from G2 RSC to Hayes Dominion A4, so similar ballpark i.e. markedly more powerful than Code RSCs etc. Finger pain on long descents or long days gone. Brake later and harder. Confidence for less speed management or comfort braking. Definite performance benefit but perhaps also a bit in the mind.

As a practical example, before these I would be backing off and taking breaks for my hands/fingers between trails by the time I was halfway down the Glentress black.

So I had problems, tried all sorts of things (brake lever angle, bar roll, finger exercises). Already on 200/180 rotors. I’m not a heavy rider nor am I particularly fast, I might just have weak fingers. Mainstream e.g. Codes might have solved it but they’re not that much more powerful on paper (32.7 vs. 30.5 total leverage) so I thought might as well go all-out for a top-line brake (41.4) for confidence that it would solve it first time.

Also, working for a tyre company, you’d expect that I understand the limitations of your only two contact points with the ground, and the forces acting on them to try to overcome their ability to do their job effectively, better than most… 😉

I’m trying to figure out why*, but I always felt that the faster you go the less the wheels lock up? So in a straight line you slam the brakes on as hard as you like, and start to slow down, untill you slow down to a speed where the wheels lock up.

*Possibly something to do with if deceleration is linear then the majority of the work is done in the early part but the change in momentum is linear, or if the work rate is linear then the change in momentum (and therefore acceleration) will be a square relation to the time?

Not read this thread but just seen the price of a chain in the STW shop advertised in the right hand panel —> over there. £63!! for a Chain!! WTF!!

£63!! for a Chain!! WTF!!

I know right?! Bargain!

https://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/parts/chains/sram-chain-pc-xx1-12-speed-eagle-hallowpin-powerlock-126l-rainbow__327949

£63 chains are pretty much mid range now, much like £6k mtbs are.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/chains/kmc-x12-dlc-12-speed-chain-blackgreen-126-links/

£63 chains are pretty much mid range now, much like £6k mtbs are.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/chains/kmc-x12-dlc-12-speed-chain-blackgreen-126-links/

That’s just got bad taste / anodising addiction tax added.

I have experience of 3 sets of brakes. Not quite apples with apples, but anyway:

Trickstuff Piccola
Trickstuff C21 calipers on Red AXS levers.
Hope Tech 4 V4

Trickstuff
The most amazing quality and tolerances, resulting in really powerful brakes for their weight. In terms of engineering, performance and finishing they are just beautiful and the manufacturing and finishing are unmatched anywhere. BUT they are totally proprietary and finding spares and maintaining them is difficult given the lack of support and leadtimes. And the availability makes them virtually unicorn s##t to actually find. The availability and price almost makes them unviable in the real world. The weight of Trickstuff is really only worth the price if you have shaved literally every other gramme off you and your bike (and who can truly say that?)

Hope
Nowhere near the same quality as Trickstuff, but definitely the next best thing, and given availability and pricing it is hard to argue against them. I am using 2.3mm 200/220 rotors and the V4 calipers and the stopping power is nothing short of phenomenal.

In my experience, the trade off of size and thickness of rotor makes a bigger difference than brand. The enemy here is less pure hydraulic power and more battling heat and fade and the geometrical advantage afforded by bigger, thicker rotors. Put bigger, thicker rotors on most brakes and they perform better.

In summary, Trickstuff are good, but the availability, price and lack of support make them all-but impossible to recommend. Hope have amazing support, are affordable, available and provide more than enough stopping power. The V4 with thicker rotors have proven to be worth the weight penalty for me. Has anybody ever wished for less stopping power?!

It’s been a while since this thread was updated. I was wondering if any of those with Trickstuff brakes had managed to get time on the Hope tech 4 since their last comments.

I might have the Trickstuff Maxima as an option i’m a bike I considering. 3 option really, 1. Ignore and fit Hope, 2, spec and use Maxima, 3, order with Maxima and pass on to someone else.

Atherton?

Last?

Anyway, taking out the issues of getting hold of Trickstuff, I’d say the Maxima just edges the T4V4. The lever feels a bit nicer, and there’s a bit more initial bite. There’s really not a lot in it though, to the point where personal preference will say which is ‘Best’

Worth noting that even if you use the Maximas, you’re likely to get what you paid for them if you move them on later.

I had a brief dalliance with a set of Tech4 V4s a few months ago which ended with me returning them (reminder that I’m on Trickstuff Direttissimas) you can read the process of slowly coming to this decision from here onwards in the Hope brake thread.

The short version is that they’re probably very nice, but I had issues with a set that were leaking fluid (as have a few other people) and ultimately decided that even once I got them sorted out they weren’t going to be better than what I already owned.

If I didn’t already own the Trickstuff I’d probably consider the Hopes more carefully, but overall I agree with @tomhoward that Trickstuff definitely edge out the Hopes. Whether that’s worth the extra cost is questionable and depends on the person squeezing them.

Cheers chaps. Feels like tomhoward is somewhat aware of my current musings.

I’ve been keeping up with the Hope thread and as a self confessed Hope fanboi, I’m surprised at how long it’s taking them to get on top of current issues.

As the Trickstuff would come as part of a build, they don’t seem to be massively more expensive than Hope. However, being in the UK, it’s much easier to sort leaking hope brakes than it would be leaking Trickstuff.

Watch out for my next thread asking about what to do in Dortmund…

Total system leverage (hydraulic + mechanical) leaderboard:

49.8 Trickstuff Maxima
41.4 Hayes Dominion A4
39.5 Trickstuff Direttissima
38.6 Magura MT5/MT7
36.1 Formula Cura4
35.6 Hope V4 Tech3
32.7 SRAM Code

Where do Shimano 4 pots fall in this list. On the fabled spread sheet there are two values, 28.971 (average for vari cam) and 39.835 (Peak)

Feels like tomhoward is somewhat aware of my current musings.

Haha. I should just come to you directly for a build consultation

TH Niche MTB consultancy

No niche too small, no budget too big…

Where do Shimano 4 pots fall in this list. On the fabled spread sheet there are two values, 28.971 (average for vari cam) and 39.835 (Peak)

Anyone? Are they worse than SRAM or better than Trickstuff?

system leverage is not the only factor.  Pad area needs to be considered as well.  Even then its still more complex

You’re not wrong, but that’s not what is being compared here.

This seems like a good place to ask this.

It’s time to upgrade the brakes on my Kenevo. I’m a big bloke on a big bike, I need big brakes. The Code R on it doesn’t cut it.

I live in Australia, so the maths is a big different on options thanks to shipping prices and distances.

I’ve done far too much research, and STW seems like the place that appreciates the options I’m considering.

The options I’m tossing up are:

• Trickstuff Maxima – I found a set in stock, no rotors but I can get Intend rotors locally. Expensive but I won’t be wanting for more power and regretting taking up the option.
• Radic Kaha – since they’re made in NZ, easy shipping and relatively fast for spares etc. Cheaper than a Maxima setup by ~AU$500. From reviews, sounds like they may be a little more light switch like than the Maximas.
• Hayes Dominion A4 – believe it or not it’s been easier to find a full Trickstuff setup in stock than front/rear Dominions and rotors. Seems like they’re 95% of the Maximas for 60-70% of the money if I can scour the internet for suitable 220/223 rotors.

Hope makes no sense for me. They work out the same price or a bit more than the Kahas thanks to exchange rates and shipping.

Does anyone have any feedback on all three, or just want to validate my Maxima purchase? 😂