‘ve been observing online “debate” about cycle helmets for about 15 years, and I’ve never seen anyone offer a new argument or change their position

Was this your position 15 years ago ? We have at least one then 😉

Same as ransos – I used to be in the pro “it’s commonsense really” camp till I started looking at it in more depth.

Now I’m in the far vaguer camp of “typically wear one, but sometimes don’t. Wholly accept the risk compensation, perception and societal arguments and never slag anyone off who makes an informed decision on whether they wear one or not”

Me personally I respect your right not to wear one however please respect my right not to ride with you and to keep moving along if you have a crash and get head injury.

Well that’s nice isn’t it? You’d go past someone in need of help to prove a point and feel smug? Lovely.

Would you rather take an impact to your skull with or without a helmet

Why do people keep making this straw man argument?? I think that’s probably the fifth time in this thread.

NO ONE is saying they would prefer to hit their head without a helmet on.

NO. ONE.

please respect my right not to ride with you and to keep moving along if you have a crash and get head injury.

Wow! That’s nice.

Can I ride on past you if you break your neck?

NO ONE is saying they would prefer to hit their head without a helmet on.

It’s the implication, isn’t it?

never slag anyone off who makes an informed decision on whether they wear one or not”

Going by the thread, I’m not sure it’s actually possible to make an informed decision.

It’s the implication, isn’t it?

No.

It’s the implication, isn’t it?

It really, really, really isn’t.

If you read that Mayer Hillman BMJ article I posted earlier then even he concedes that:

The Cochrane review by Rivara and the Thompsons found evidence that if you bang your head the consequences will be less severe if you are wearing a protective helmet.
..
We accept the principal finding of their review — that protective helmets protect in the event of an accident — but not the policy conclusions that they derive from it. The issue that divides us is risk compensation..

So this thread is then about two things:

1) don’t be a dick towards non helmet wearers and
2) it might be safer to go without protection becuase it’ll make you ride safer?

ransos – Member

As I said, if you can’t see it, I can’t help you. I’ll leave you to carrying on rubbing your trousers.

You could help, you could quote your original answer.
Well, you could if you had ever answered my question, which you haven’t.
You know you haven’t, otherwise you’d have already repeated your answer.

Do grow up.

Ps. for your information, I am not wearing trousers. 😉

I wear a helmet on my 29er
I wear a helmet on my 26er
I don’t wear a helmet on my 29er
I don’t wear a helmet on my 26er

Now there’s a survey!

EDIT – grahamS posted the same thing!

All of the below (what grahams said) need quantifying and there is very little data to do this accurately, hence the debate continues.

Most people agree correctly fitted helmets reduce your risk of a head injury in an accident.

So this thread is then about two things:

1) don’t be a dick towards non helmet wearers and
2) it might be safer to go without protection becuase it’ll make you ride safer?

For me, yeah pretty much.

I’d expand that to be:

1) don’t be a dick towards non helmet wearers – because it’s more nuanced than the simple, common-sense/darwinism issue that you perceive it to be.

2) it might be safer to go without protection because:
– it’ll make you ride safer
– other road users will give you more space and treat you with more caution
– other road/path users are more likely to regard you as a person rather than an alien “cyclist”.

3) it might be better for cycling/society to go without a helmet because:
– you don’t promote the false idea that cycling is a dangerous sport that needs special clothes and safety equipment
– you do promote every-day cycling by “normal” people.
– you don’t support the notion of victim-blaming

4) weigh up the evidence yourself, Make your own decision. Don’t leave others to die because of the decision they made!

I find it strange that people are arguing against helmets as they [wearing them] make you more dangerous a rider, more likely to fall off and also be hit by a car.

A rider in our club had a fork failure [Steerer snapped] they were not in traffic not riding fast [C1 ride 10-12 MPH] no pressure from anyone other than to enjoy a ride.
The resulting fall meant weeks in hospital, intensive care and a long period of recovery.
Thankfully they were wearing a helmet and the kids still have 2 parents and their partner hasn’t lost someone they love.

Now if anyone says wearing a helmet on the road is not worth it as they never fall and if they do they dont bang their heads I suggest they think again.

molgrips – Member
So this thread is then about two things:

1. I’ve got staying power when it comes to typing pointless stuff on the web
2. Check out my arguing/reasoning skills baby

You could help, you could quote your original answer.

Are you unable to? It would explain a great deal.

I find it strange that people are arguing against helmets as they [wearing them] make you more dangerous a rider, more likely to fall off and also be hit by a car.

A rider in our club had a fork failure [Steerer snapped] they were not in traffic not riding fast [C1 ride 10-12 MPH] no pressure from anyone other than to enjoy a ride.
The resulting fall meant weeks in hospital, intensive care and a long period of recovery.
Thankfully they were wearing a helmet and the kids still have 2 parents and their partner hasn’t lost someone they love.

Now if anyone says wearing a helmet on the road is not worth it as they never fall and if they do they dont bang their heads I suggest they think again.

So you know what would have happened, had the rider not been wearing a helmet?

A rider in our club had a fork failure [Steerer snapped]

eek nasty! 😯

However just because it is possible to injure yourself without risk compensation playing a part doesn’t mean that risk compensation is an invalid argument. You need to consider your overall risk of injury.

Presumably if he had broken his neck in that fall you wouldn’t question why he wasn’t wearing a neck brace?

Thankfully they were wearing a helmet and the kids still have 2 parents and their partner hasn’t lost someone they love.

Because the helmet definitely saved their life?

1. I’ve got staying power when it comes to typing pointless stuff on the web
2. Check out my arguing/reasoning skills baby

You missed:
3. It’s a slow day at work and I’m stuck in an office while the sun is shining.

There are in the order of 100 cyclist deaths per year in the UK. This always feels way smaller than would be indicated by the number of stories you hear where “the helmet definitely saved my/my friend’s/my relative’s life”, particularly as in many cases the lethal injuries aren’t head injuries.

A rider in our club had a fork failure [Steerer snapped]

Probably caused by the extra weight of the helmet.

For the record I did state that I respected your right not to wear a helmet.

I did not say that I would walk past but implied that you respect my right to do so if I think that you may have been in a better state having wore a helmet! That is you have a cut or banged head OK before you start jumping to conclusions.

NO ONE is saying they would prefer to hit their head without a helmet on.

It’s the implication, isn’t it?

I’m happy to venture out without a bulletproof vest. I would prefer to be wearing one if I’m going to get shot in the chest though.

ransos – Member

So you know what would have happened, had the rider not been wearing a helmet?

No, maybe they wouldnt have ridden if they’d forgotten it. However I’ll ask you a few questions

Do you ride a road bike
Do you wear a helmet
Have you ever fallen and banged you head
Do you ride a mountain bike

– it’ll make you ride safer

I always ride safely!

– other road users will give you more space and treat you with more caution

You have to admit that’s tenuous. And for them to do that they have to have seen you. Not seeing cyclists has to be a big factor in accidents.

– other road/path users are more likely to regard you as a person rather than an alien “cyclist”.

Very tenuous imo.

– you don’t promote the false idea that cycling is a dangerous sport that needs special clothes and safety equipment

Hmm.. also tenuous. I doubt anyone’s going to be prepared to go to all the physical exertion and minoor faff (carrying and using a lock, tucking trousers in etc) of riding a bike and then be put off by wearing a helmet.. but I’m sure someone will come along with a study in a minute.

– you do promote every-day cycling by “normal” people.

I don’t see helmets and every-day-ness as incompatible. If it becomes the norm I doubt other people would either.

– you don’t support the notion of victim-blaming

This I see as a possibility, but it could be legislated against – see the previous debate about automatic driver fault. But that in itself is a minefield too.

GrahamS – Member

Because the helmet definitely saved their life?

See above and answer same questions

I did not say that I would walk past but implied that you respect my right to do so if I think that you may have been in a better state having wore a helmet!

Okay – I respect your right to be a selfish arse.

Is it okay for me to walk past you if I think you should have been wearing a high-viz top, or helmet mirrors, or a neck brace? Or more pertinently if I decide you were going too fast because you felt safe in your helmet?

I wouldn’t of course. I’d stop and help anyone regardless. Because I’m a nice person.

I’m happy to venture out without a bulletproof vest. I would prefer to be wearing one if I’m going to get shot in the chest though.

Exactly.

Do you ride a road bike
Do you wear a helmet
Have you ever fallen and banged you head
Do you ride a mountain bike

Yep, most of the time, yep, yep.

keep moving along if you have a crash and get head injury

doesn’t really sound like

I did not say that I would walk past

TBH.

Qualifying it with

that you respect my right to do so if I think that you may have been in a better state having wore a helmet! That is you have a cut or banged head OK before you start jumping to conclusions.

doesn’t really clear it up either. Unless you can assess severity of head injury with a passing glance. fair play if you can. Maybe you could act as some sort of triage at A&E, they’re pretty busy at the minute.

Do you ride a road bike
Do you wear a helmet
Have you ever fallen and banged you head
Do you ride a mountain bike

Yes to all of those questions. Earlier in the thread I described how a very low speed accident resulted in a cracked helmet.

Yes Graham thats quite ok so you are a selfish arse also. Glad we agree on that, pot kettle black.

Me personally I respect your right not to wear one however please respect my right not to ride with you and to keep moving along if you have a crash and get head injury.

Depressing. Utterly depressing!

Depressing. Utterly depressing!

Agreed.

pingu66: I assume you’d also walk past someone broken if you decided they would have been better off riding round that 6″ drop rather than over it, or getting off and walking rather than trying to ride that rooty section? Or staying at home on the sofa?

– other road users will give you more space and treat you with more caution

You have to admit that’s tenuous. And for them to do that they have to have seen you. Not seeing cyclists has to be a big factor in accidents.

Ian Walkers study was pretty conclusive no? 2,500 vehicles sampled. That sounds like a decent sample size to me. His data is publicly available for you to verify. Certainly matches my own experiences.

I do agree that not seeing cyclists is a much bigger factor – but for some reason I never see any high-viz debates or folk saying they wouldn’t ride with someone who choose not to wear a high-viz safety vest and helmet cover.

Funny that.

– other road/path users are more likely to regard you as a person rather than an alien “cyclist”.

Very tenuous imo.

Plenty of sociological studies that talk about de-humanising people. Look at the language that the press use. They frequently call cyclists “lycra louts” and the like, rather than acknowledging they are people.

The wearing of lycra and helmets is frequently mentioned and ridiculed in anti-cycling press. e.g. Here is the Daily Mail calling us “lycra louts” and “Darth Vader on two wheels”

– you don’t promote the false idea that cycling is a dangerous sport that needs special clothes and safety equipment

Hmm.. also tenuous. I doubt anyone’s going to be prepared to go to all the physical exertion and minoor faff (carrying and using a lock, tucking trousers in etc) of riding a bike and then be put off by wearing a helmet

You’d be surprised. Helmets cost money. They mess up hair, make you sweaty and look silly. These are genuine factors that put some non-cyclists off cycling. There is a reason that positive pictures of glamorous people cycling don’t show helmets:

(she hasn’t even stopped at the lights!)

But beyond that the bigger impact that puts people off cycling isn’t the wearing of a helmet, but that you NEED to wear a helmet because apparently it is really really dangerous and needs protective gear.

Pingu is a perfect example of how warped people’s idea of risk taking is as it relates to helmet wearing.

walking on a flat path, no helmet – fine. Hill-walking without a helmet – no problem at all.

Cycling on a flat path, no helmet, my god, you selfish arse, you deserve everything you get, no way would I stop to help.

Pushing your limits on a mountain bike over hazardous terrain – absolutely fine. Do what you like, any risk taking is acceptable, apart from choosing not to wear a helmet.

Actually you really need to go back and have a look at what is written.

At no point did I say that “I WOULD” walk past an injured rider. So yes feel free to criticise something that I have not actually said just what you believe I have said.

Its utterly depressing that you cant actually read.

There is a reason that positive pictures of glamorous people cycling don’t show helmets:

I think you’d need to post a photo of her in a skinsuit to make sure.

I’ll post what you wrote again:

keep moving along if you have a crash and get head injury

doesn’t really sound like

I did not say that I would walk past

Well done Terry do you want to quote the whole part of that or just the part you want to publish.

That is you respect my right to do so or someone who chooses to, again at no point did I say that I would, ie not saying that I would. Indeed even in your selective quote does it say I will walk past, fraid not so try again.

Still here chaps?

I must commend GrahamS on a sensible, adult, and above all intelligent attempt to explain the issues around helmet use despite being assailed with the usual youmustwearahelmetoryou’lldie stuff.

I’ve done 110 miles on my bike since this thread began, I wore a helmet, but as I suggested above, the hat is not the issue.

It would help if you looked at those societies where the bike is a form of transport; the Netherlands, Denmark and so on, and see if you understand how bicycles are used.

I’m still confused with pingu, and with why I’m still typing.

“Everyone has a right to their choices, and a right for others to respect their choices, unless those choices result in bad things, in which case other people have a right (which should be respected) not respect them anymore, and leave them injured on the trail”

Something like that?

Graham, you don’t think that perhaps people’s experiences as they go about their daily business counts for more than helmet wearing when it comes to perception of safety?
Cycling on the road can be pretty scary, and I’m an ex motorbike courier and have done more than 70,000 miles as a cyclist.
God knows what it feels like to a complete novice.