Including all the cost you pay – such as fuel, mot, insurance, depreciation etc. RAC calculate that a small car bought new and traded in after a few years cost 50p ish a mile

Bangernomics ( if you can cope with driving a clapped out car) can reduce this.

However some thousands a year is in the right ballpark for most folk. Standing costs are £500+ before you drive it

OK YMMV but:

Say £500 for the car (either buying it or depreciation).
£500 year insurance
£150 year tax (middle band)
£400 MoT + servicing/parts/time spent on maintenance
£480 petrol (@£40 per month)

I reckon I’m under on a lot of that, and it’s still over £1500 a year.

Taxi – a pound or two a mile, hire car – £40 ish a weekend ( plus petrol)

Lots of taxis and hire cars for that money you spend on a car. Its nice after the day in the hills to sit in comfort on a train drinking beer and chatting to your pals – maybe with a nice picnic. Far nicer that being in a car

RAC calculate that a small car bought new and traded in after a few years cost 50p ish a mile

What about 3 year old car kept for 10 years? That’s not clapped out but it’s definitely much cheaper than the expensive situation above.

Not everyone buys their cars new and chops them in after three years.

You paint a rosy picture TJ but I’ve had miserable experiences rushing at the end of a walk to catch a bus then missing it, and having to sit for an hour at the roadside in the middle of nowhere in the freezing cold to get on a bus for 90 mins, when if I’d had a car I’d have been home and dry in 45.

Plus your choice of walk is absolutely slashed in Wales if you are relying on buses or trains. And good luck doing it on a Sunday 🙁

Yes molgrips – but it is still “some thousands” a year to run.

RAC numbers are “many thousands” for cars bought new

Edit – to your edit molgrips – thats all about organisation and attitude – you see I’d be doing the waiting in a pub usually. Or I’d be sitting reading the paper and I just accept that sometimes this happens for the positives of not owning a car. Remember I do this multiple times a year and have done for decades.

FTR I am not asserting that cars are essential – just providing the other side of the argument. The only reason I got a car in the first place was to get out into the hills. I was sick of trying to plan trips with public transport and failing. Or riding for two hours on road to get to a new bit of trail (to be fair I was less sick of that – it’s still riding after all, but it’s not mtbing).

Only ever brought 1 new car all others have been second hand and current one i’ve had for over 4 years.

And as for depreciation that counts for nearly everything in life you buy.

But it is still a cost 1freezingpenguin.

Part of the issues is you have to pay out large sums that you do notice rather than the standing orders and £20 of petrol here and there – a £50 taxi fare seems expensive. Over the year doing it 4 times is not – but at the time it feels like it. Same with the hire cars

The one place I do find it a lack is to get to Glentress – no public transport that can take bikes, too far to ride (unless overnighting)Seems a bit much to spend the £50 on a hire car for a few hours in a trail centre.

Hiring cars also allows you to have an appropriate vehicle for your needs – short local driving or country lanes – town car, want to take bikes and camping kit up north in uncertain weather – big van. Want to do hundreds of motorway miles – nice big car with cruise control

A taxi from my mums to my place is £14 each way, bus fare for round trip is £9 and 45 minutes to an hour on buses and NO sunday service 👿 I know for a fact it’s not costing me 50 pence in petrol their and back and is only a 10 minute drive. Being forced not to drive for the past 5 weeks and relied on public transport and taxis has cost me more than it would have if I was using my car.

Bangernomics these days does not mean putting up with a clapped out car, though TJ. And depreciation can be non-existant. And if you are mechanically minded.

Also you may wish to put a non monetary value on the convienience of a car compared to public transport, but again this depends on personal circumstances and where you live. At the same time sitting on a non crowded train can have a value attached to it, compared to the stress of driving.

Would be interesting to see those who are carless, how many miles per annum they would actually be driving ie the convienience of a car is not as important but the standing cost of car cannot be justified.

Conversely, we went to Scotland for a week at Easter and I’d not have fancied that without the car; as the place we were staying was pretty remote.

But if that one or two weeks a year is your only car use is it worth owning a car for the other 50 weeks a year?

even if you are doing your own maintenance your time has value.

At the same time sitting on a non crowded train can have a value attached to it, compared to the stress of driving.

This one is so true – coming back from up north being able to have a civilised meal and drink beers and chat in the train is so much nicer than the same journey in a car.

Would be interesting to see those who are carless, how many miles per annum they would actually be driving ie the convienience of a car is not as important but the standing cost of car cannot be justified.

I have organised my life so as not to need to drive. I am sure I would drive a bit if I had a car. Interestingly a few years ago I had the loan of my parents car for 2 weeks – I found myself driving to work stressed out and grumpy in traffic jams rather than riding my bike which I enjoy. weird

so If I had a car I would use one more but probably only a 1000 ish miles a year extra at a guess. A few runs up north and down to Glentress

Am I to assume that rural public transport is much better in Scotland than in Wales then?

But if that one or two weeks a year is your only car use is it worth owning a car for the other 50 weeks a year?

No. I’m with you on that; my wife is less convinced.

Out cost=per-mile for car ownership is stupidly high, because it sits on the drive a lot of the time.

Molgrips – no – ita about attitudes and organisation. I would not be sitting at the bus stop in the rain – I would be in the pub down the road

15 miles to the nearest pub from the ironically named Storey Arms bus stop which services the Brecon Beacons.

At the same time sitting on a non crowded train can have a value attached to it, compared to the stress of driving.

There is the opposite to this too. If i was to commute by train I would have to stand up for an hour squeezed into an overcrowded carriage. This would not only take longer but be more stressful than driving IMO.

Molgrips – you don’t get it. I would not be there – I would be somewhere else – or if I had to be there I would be accepting of it not railing against it.

Organisation and attitude

I’m not railing against it – I did it, and have not complained about it for 15 odd years since it happened.

I am simply pointing out the negatives that you are glossing over in your evangelism 🙂

The reality is that in Wales there’s very I wanted to do that’s serviced by public transport, and the bus stop that I needed was not near a pub. Your other option for Pen y Fan is to walk back to Merthyr which is another 5 miles at each end of your climb! And there are no trains on a Sunday at all.

And you still don’t get the point – its about altering your attitudes and expectations to make the most of the public transport. You have to lose the car drivers mindset

You don’t have to return to the starting point, use bikes as well, alter routes, if you get stuck in the rain waiting for a bus for an hour just be calm and accepting of that. Its not better or worse – its advantages and disadvantages. Most of my recent walking trips can only be done by public transport easily as I am not returning to my start point. Try doing a 5 day linear walk by car! It gives you a real freedom not to use a car – the downside of which is the occasional wait for a bus in the rain

Am I to assume that rural public transport is much better in Scotland than in Wales then?

Are you somehow unfamiliar with the magical utopia in which TJ resides molgrips? Up until recently, the populace have had to do with fleets of Sudan chairs, to be hailed at will, to deliver you to any destination in luxurious comfort. Nocharge obviously. All is paid for by the magic beans that live under the sea. And definitely not by your filthy evil English taxes

But this unsatisfactory stop-gap is about to change. The Salmon king as part of his re-election campaign has promised every household their own winged Unicorn to fly them about the mythical kingdom.

This will be funded by a magical alliance of similar counties who definitely aren’t the monetary equivalent of that bloke that sits next to the cashtill, with his dog on a bit of string, rambling incoherently about loose change, and swigging white lightning

😀

And you still don’t get the point – its about altering your attitudes and expectations to make the most of the public transport.

You forget that I have been car less for long periods. I know all about altering attitudes. As for linear walks, yes yes of course all this is very obvious, it does not need spelling out to me.

All I am doing is pointing out that there are disadvantages to the public transport option when walking in the hills. Significant, for me, with the public transport options I had available at the time. So I bought a car, and continued to commute to London by train – whenever I managed to get up at the required 4am 🙁

Attitudes and expectations towards public transport are all very well TJ, but from central birmingham to the in-laws i think we’d with a newborn have to walk, bus, train and then get a taxi, rather than a simple 25 minute car journey. Not forgetting a taxi is not public transport of course. I’ll have to try it to see how it compares on the faffometer. And this is from a couple who refuse to take the easy `tourist bus’ when travelling.

SOme people just don’t like driving or ar not `trained’ to drive huge distances. If its for work you just accept it.

Moilgripos – whats that wooshing noise? Ah yes – the point flying past your head. You are focussing on the negatives – not accepting the compromises. There are big negatives with a car as well for biking and hillwalking

Scamper – the “attitudes and expectations” was really in response to molgrips and “you need a car to go hillwalking”

TBH I rarely drive these days. We downsized from 2 cars (a 2.5l V6 Mitsubishi estate + 1.8l Mazda 323) to just the Mazda about 3 years ago. Mainly because I couldn’t afford to run / tax / insure the V6. Petrol was starting to go up and I used it only twice a week, if that.

Living on an Island, a car is necessary for us, as family are all over the shop, plus we have a 4 yo and OH has back problems.
Public transport I suppose is an option, but its not always the most convenient.
Im lucky as I only have to walk for 10 mins to get to work and most of my riding is done locally.
Sometimes it can be a logistical PITA with only one smallish car, but those times are rare.
I cant see us not having a car, but 2 cars is unlikely to happen again.

You are focussing on the negatives – not accepting the compromises

No mate, I am fully aware of all the positives and compromises. I’m not typing them out because you are doing so perfectly well. I’m just adding to the discussion not repeating bits of it.

I lived car-free for years before meeting Mrs StirlingCrispin. And even now just about the only time I drive the car is to take it for a service, so here are my thoughts:

Go for it!

– Treat yourself to a hack bike. Having a hack bike you can leave in town or at the station without having to worry about it is a massive boon. Full-length mudguards are a must.

– Treat yourself to good waterproofs: jacket and trousers. Being car free doesn’t mean you should be perma-damp.

– Get a folding bike for trains and buses. This sets you free at the other end. And they are very social bikes – ride to a cafe, meet a friend and then blag a lift back for more tea and biscuits. My Brompton is ten-years old but still gets regular use.

– Get a trailer for big shops / unusual loads. I have a Carry Freedom City – which can be folded flat and carried with the Brompton – but any trailer will do.

I always intended to hire a car for weekend trips but never got round to it.

And enjoy the freedom!

Moilgripos – whats that wooshing noise? Ah yes – the point flying past your head. You are focussing on the negatives – not accepting the compromises. There are big negatives with a car as well for biking and hillwalking

All Molgrips is saying is there are negatives as well as positives ? I cant see why you cant except this.

There are negatives as well as positives to owning a car. I think we all agree many negatives to owning a car as well as positives. Your argument seems to be that as a car owner I should be “accepting the compromises” rather than describing the negatives of owning a car.

Basically you seem to be suggesting if you believe in a principle you should be “accepting of its compromises” not just accept it has any negatives.

That is very odd.

Depressingly I’m currently considering going the other way and getting a car after seven years without one, its come about because of the increasing cost of public transport, unpleasantness of the journeys (mainly due to other users) and the cancellation of services locally. The hack bike has been a good substitute for getting to work and shopping plus I use delivery services for heavy groceries but I’m sick of being stood at bus stops in the rain wondering why the service hasn’t turned up or having to say no to weekends away as I simply can’t get to them because public transport doesn’t exist in some areas on weekends.

It’ll certainly cost more but I am increasingly tired of staying car-free when the country is pretty much 100% structured around motorists – will probably look at a low emissions vehicle to keep overheads down.

The only real negatives to owning a car are cost to run it and insure it. A car is generally about convenience, more than anything else.
Yes the are other ways of doing things, but typically they can be much more difficult.
as an example, how about going to the tip with a load of glass bottles to recycle, or tree branches / garden refuse. Its not practical or a good use of time to make 10 tips with a bike trailer to do this. As for taking the train / bus / taxi, i dont think so.
If I lived in a city, then I wouldn’t necessarily need a car, but living on a predominantly rural Island, a car is still a very necessary evil.
TJ you need to accept that people have other things in their life which may mean a car is necessary to them, but others like you have adapted their life accordingly.

Over the past 9 months I have spent just over £2400 owning/running a car 😯 That’s almost £8 every single day…

I would love to get rid of it.

– Local shops & son’s school are all within 1.5 miles.
– Local bus to Stockport goes right past my front door.
– Station 1.5 miles away (which the above-mentioned bus goes past) for train services to Manchester.
– I generally try to cycle the 11.5 miles to work.

The only reasons I’ve not seriously attempted to sell the car are

– a 80-90 minute commute each way when I can’t cycle to work (compared to 30-40 minutes with the bike or car)
– an hour or more (rather than 20/25 minutes) to get to my parents (we visit them pretty frequently)

I am toying with the idea of not using the car for a month, see how we get on… although with a baby arriving in a few weeks this probably isn’t the best time…

As an additional comment to my point above, I bought my first car specifically because I had a 12 mile commute which took over an hour on the bus, the car took a third of the time.
The bus would be late (even though it started less than a mile from the house), it would be cold and damp in the winter etc etc.
However when I lived in Glasgow, I had no need for a car and travelled by bike / train or bus, because the infrastructure is there to support the travellers. In rural areas, it simply isn’t there ALL the time.

Oh god no I had to make do without a car for a few months once and it was dreadful. Public transport is a joke and if you think I’m riding to work you have another think coming. I ended up getting taxis everywhere. I missed the freedom a car gave me.

15 miles to the nearest pub from the ironically named Storey Arms bus stop which services the Brecon Beacons.

5 miles actually. Flat scenic route too. What maps are you using? 90 mins to kill, walk there, 30 mins supping beer, step outside to bus stop.

Your other option for Pen y Fan is to walk back to Merthyr which is another 5 miles at each end of your climb! And there are no trains on a Sunday at all.

Just 10 miles to Merthyr train station from Storey Arms too. There is a Sunday service, albeit only every 2 hours.

OK it is a PITA planning all this, and a PITA when plans fall through, you just need to get creative and be prepared.

When my car was stolen I considered not replacing it and just using a public transport and/or hire car when really needed (car was returned so no need to make a decision in the end).

Lack of car negatives for me are:

Rarely travel in the car alone, thus two rail/bus fares required to replace one car journey.

Most public transport journeys for me require getting into Nottingham first, you could often reach the destination in the car before you’d even caught the connecting train in Nottingham. My time is worth something to me.

Rail pricing structures mean often things are only affordable if booked well in advance, I’m not that organised 🙂

i run 2 cars on bangernomics, the other half runs a 3rd. I recon the costs (before petrol) are about a grand a year :

insurance £300 (bit less for the mondeo, fiver more for the mx5)
tax £200
mot £250 (average cost)
oil change £50
depreciation £200 (mondeo was bought for £1000 and is now worth nothing, 7 years later, the mx5 was bought for £700, probably worth £500 now)

petrol\diesel is around 10-15p per mile, so lets say a total cost of about 25p/mile, assuming 10,000 miles a year

I’m more than happy to pay that not to deal with public transport, and I never use my car for traveling to work (they’re purely used for evening/weekend transport). I could cut costs by a grand by dropping down to one car, but I don’t need to so I shan’t bother.

Hiring cars is fine but it takes planning (you have to go there when the office is open and return it Monday morning etc etc).

Here’s how it works for me. I ring them up on a friday afternoon. They come and pick me up from work around 5 and take me to collect the car. I give them £36 and sometimes pay for some fuel at a subsidised rate. I drop the car back around 5 on the monday night then they give me a lift to my house about 4 miles away. And every fifth time they do it for free 🙂

If I need to visit the tip or go anywhere that isn’t easily accesible by public transport, I just hire a car. For that money I’ll get an almost new car, only one has had more than 10k on it IIRC. If it breaks down, I’ll get a replacement straight away. I think I’ve had a hire 7 times since september so it’s not especially frequent. We’ve managed despite dealing with a wedding, honeymoon and pregnancy in that time. That said, we are borrowing a friends car for 4 weeks around the birth, just in case. I reckon that’s me being overly cautious though.

OP, don’t let yourself be swayed by arguments from people at the extreme ends of the spectrum. The only way you’ll find out if it works for you is to give it a go. I don’t think you’ll learn if you can adapt effectively if you still have a car as backup.

5 miles actually.

Where?

5 miles was still too far for us, which is the point I was making 🙂 Too far to walk, have a pint and walk back in an hour 🙂

Just 10 miles to Merthyr train station from Storey Arms too

Thinking about it, there was a Sunday train service in the mornings, not in the afternoon I think. Anyway it’s not convenient which is what I was thinking.

if you think I’m riding to work you have another think coming

Why unless it’s a huge distance or you have to transport many tools it’s the best way to get to work, you feel refreshed and awake.

I hardly use my car but I like the convenience of just jumping in and going somewhere if I want to, or if I buy something bulky not have to worry or work out how to get it home. If things got tight then sure it be one of the first things to go but at the moment I can afford to run it so it doesn’t bother me.

If I ever worried about depreciation of it I wouldn’t buy a car but then again I probably wouldn’t buy a tv or can opener either.

To the OP give it a few months of not using your car see how you get on. If you don’t need it then sell it.