200!

Unless it takes you an inordinate amount of time to do an overtake?

Well if all the traffic is moving at close to the same speed you can be along side other traffic for a long time. You’ve never tried to look out for something on the roadside and had it completely obscured by a van on the inside? If you’re faster than the other traffic by the right amount they can block your view completely from start to finish.

Or did you just not notice this happening? 🙂

You live in Cardiff IIRC, so what in the name of something nasty were you doing coming into Liverpool on the M62?????

M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M62, obviously – which way would you have gone?

I only use overtaking lanes for overtaking mols, so I’m only alongside the truck for a few seconds 🙂

I’ve accepted my mistake all the way through the thread

With respect, you haven’t. You’ve said “I missed a sign, it must be the sign’s fault” rather than “I missed a sign, it must be my fault”, which is why the great unwashed are now gleefully taking numbers to try and call you on it.

/DJ Voice

This one goes out to Molgrips, currently in his Passat, who didn’t.

/DJ Voice

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TnMdKAplpk[/video]

molgrips – Member

I’ve accepted my mistake all the way through the thread. However, given that I usually notice speed limit signs, and having reviewed the images, I think that they could do with making the signs bigger. I know I’m not inattentive, so the fact I missed them says to me that they are easy to miss. And the fact that I’d already seen the 40 signs so assumed I was ‘in a 40’ for the duration of the DC. Mistake, of course.

That’s sound very much like you not accepting you’re at fault (it’s the size position etc of the signage), or that your were concentrating on the road conditions/speed limits because…

but I was concentrating on not going wrong and following my directions…

molgrips – Member

M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M62, obviously – which way would you have gone?
M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M56

Or even
M4 -> M5 -> M6 -> M56 -> M53

Don’t worry most satnavs seem to take people that way & even the motorway signs hide the fact you can cut out that stupid way into Liverpool.

With respect, you haven’t. You’ve said “I missed a sign, it must be the sign’s fault” rather than “I missed a sign, it must be my fault”

Not really. I said it’s my fault for missing the sign. However, the sign could still be more visible given that I was generally watching what I was doing.

The standard of signage is better elsewhere, why not there?

I have no explanation as to why I missed it, and I’d love to know.

That’s sound very much like you not accepting you’re at fault

Well it’s not meant to. Let me clear it up a bit, if I can.

1) I was at fault
2) I was at fault
3) I was at fault
4) I feel that whilst I was at fault, they could’ve made it easier to see the signs.

Even though we may be obliged to complete a task, and we fail if we don’t, that task can be made easier or harder, can’t it?

4) I feel that whilst I was at fault, they could’ve made it easier to see the signs.

😀

Paul you are dead right. I’m not defending myself. I should not have missed the signs.

Fair enough.

However I think they could make them more visible. Given that I was looking out for them and still missed them..

It was all going so well 🙄

So you are defending your mistake then ?

You’ve constantly blamed the road design/signage/other traffic etc etc etc for the fact that you didn’t see the perfectly adequate signs that it was a 30 limit.

Just accept it was entirely your own fault and move on.

M53 looks a lot further, and the M56 way involves going through Runcorn/Widnes. That could’ve been good or bad, I couldn’t tell from the map, so I went with M62 being a safer bet.

Why shouldn’t they make it easier to see the signs?

molgrips – Member

M53 looks a lot further, and the M56 way involves going through Runcorn/Widnes. That could’ve been good or bad, I couldn’t tell from the map, so I went with M62 being a safer bet.
You don’t go “through” Runcorn/Widnes more past on a dual carriageway

Ah well the safer bet 😉

Because where does it stop?

Do you check with everyone that the signs are big enough, or that 5 separate signs indicating the speed are sufficient?

Or do you find a reasonable size/quantity that anyone whose eyesight is good enough to drive can see?

I assume you usually see speed limit signs? If so, then they’re big enough. If not, well…

I was not on autopilot, I was pretty hyped up, but I was concentrating on not going wrong and following my directions…

If only there was something that was right next to the directions you were following going ‘boing’ and indicating you were driving too fast. Oh wait…..

😆

Burn him!

If only there was something that was right next to the directions you were following going ‘boing’ and indicating you were driving too fast.

It went boing, but I didn’t know what boing meant because I never normally hear it.

I didn’t look at the screen when it went boing, cos I was concentrating on where I was going 🙂

Because where does it stop?

Just after the point where people who want to obey the limits and are concentrating will see them, and where they aren’t obscured by traffic.

Most other places seem to manage it fine, why not Liverpool?

As above – that’s a three lane road. The inside lane gets the inside one in their field of view, the outside lane gets the outside one. Anyone travelling in the middle lane may never get a clear view of the signs.

And we’ve not established if the lights were working either. They may not have been.

footflaps – Member

Burn him!

😯

miss read that at first glance!

Most other people places seem to manage it fine, why not me Liverpool?

fixed

Most, but not all?

Are you completely 100% confident you’d have seen the sign in the same spot? No doubts?

They’re standard size signs, the same as everywhere else. If you normally see speed limit signs and/or the ones painted on the road, but didn’t this time, it is not the signs that are the cause of that.

Why are you sat alongside a high vehicle for hundreds of metres without passing it? Those signs are visible from several hundred metres away, and can be read from over 100m away.

Are you completely 100% confident you’d have seen the sign in the same spot? No doubts?

maybe, maybe not.

but if I subsequently got a ticket I’d accept it was sufficient signage and it was 100% my mistake.

which you aren’t…

miss read that at first glance!

Dr Freud will see you now…

but if I subsequently got a ticket I’d accept it was sufficient signage and it was 100% my mistake.

Hmm.

Depends what you mean by sufficient. Legal minimum, fine.

I just don’t know why I completely missed the signs, since it’s really very unusual for me to do this.

And having looked at the pictures, I can see how it’s possible to miss. Lorry to the left, van to the right, you won’t see either of those signs.

If I’d looked at the images and seen a massive gantry with signs all over it, then no question, I must’ve been half asleep. But I’m pretty sure I was alert, so that’s what makes it strange.

You really can’t see how those two little signs could be obscured?

molgrips – Member

Lorry to the left, van to the right…..

…and there you were, stuck in the middle

Need to watch yourself in Liverpool too, someone will stealer your wheels…..

I just don’t know why I completely missed the signs, since it’s really very unusual for me to do this.

Because you weren’t paying enough attention.

Seems like you need to come to terms with that, and stop blaming other people for your mistake.

And having looked at the pictures, I can see how it’s possible to miss. Lorry to the left, van to the right, tailgating the car in fornt to obscure the road markings you won’t see either of those signs.

Fixed that for you.

Come on, there’s enough signs in a ‘gate’ style, there was additional markings on the road and your satnav also warned you that’s enough really.
Did you honestly not even glance at your satnav (presumably mounted on your windscreen) during that time? It’s a bit of a grandad excuse to be all confused by technology and so unable to take your eyes off the road ahead to glance, that you miss things in your tunnel vision style viewings. I’m not at all convinced that you’d have seen a kid running out I think we’ve had a bit about observational skills but I think it bears repeating.
You sound like you were half asleep really.

Seems like you need to come to terms with that, and stop blaming other people for your mistake.

Of course I wasn’t paying enough attention, by definition. This is not in question.

However, signs should be designed to be noticeable. We’re not talking about children’s faces or baby robins here, things that randomly occur. If you’re designing where to put signs and how big to make them, you should be looking at the situation and making sure that people aren’t likely to miss it.

I don’t think it’s hard to imagine a scenario where those signs aren’t visible. Are you saying it’s not possible?

Did you honestly not even glance at your satnav (presumably mounted on your windscreen) during that time?

There’s only 0.2 of a mile between the signs and the camera, and no junctions, so no.

You really can’t see how those two little signs could be obscured

I can see that if you’re alongside a lorry as you pass it that it is at that moment in time obscured.

Can you not see that an observant driver would notice the signs from a distance, and if not able to read them at that point, ensure they were in position to see them when they could. There are 5 of them in total.

Can you not see that an observant driver would notice the signs from a distance

Can you also not see that they could be obscured even from a distance?

I’m not at all convinced that you’d have seen a kid running out I think we’ve had a bit about observational skills but I think it bears repeating.

Good thing you don’t need to be convinced. Are you saying that, when surrounded by traffic I should be watching my satnav instead?

Honestly, my point’s made, you’re just putting in the boot for pleasure, so you can all piss off.

And this Ladies and Gentlement is why our increasing reliance on “machine justice” makes a mockey of the both the legal system and peoples attitudes to that system!

In the old days, a real policeman would have stopped you, had a chat, applied some common sense based on the actual situation they observed. Depending on those circumstances, and how the accused handled the incident, chances are you’d be on your way with a warning, and a mental note to yourself to be more observant next time. Job done, point made.

In 2014, a machine measures your arbitary speed in an arbitary situation, and if speed > (limit+leeway) sends you the bill in the post.
At no point is there any human interaction, the perpitrator ends up “hating” the system for penalising them for something that in their mind was incredibly minor and it erodes their confidence in both the legal system and also is, imo, actually more likely to make them miss the entire point of the speed camera in the first place.
(most peoples reaction to a camera fine is not “i will drive slower” but “i will keep a better lookout next time”!!)

So, gradually, drivers faith in the legal system is eroded, and people who actually drive poorly, dangerously (which is actually completely independant of the speed at which they happen to be moving) and without courtesy to others continue to drive in that fashion.

So, whilst the law HAS to be black and white (<30mph = ok / >30 = speeding for example) we have lost the “grayscale” filter that a real human being used to apply.
This has meant that we now have a much much greater reliance and importance on the setting and maintaining of appropriate limits than before.

For example, immagine in extremis the following situation.

20mph zone, directly outside school gates, with a speeding camera set to fine you at >22mph (20mph +10%).

SITUATION 1:
At 3.30pm on a schoolday, when the road is full of cars, parents and kids, i will drive past at 20mph exactly. But, unfortunately, i’m smashed off my tits on a mixture of alcohol, hard drugs, and not only is my car on fire (my spliff set fire to the passenger seat….) but both rear tyres are flat.

SITUATION 2:
At 3.30am on Sunday morning, you drive past, doing 23mph. No one is about, the road is empty. You car is in perfect condition, you are not only driving well, but courteously, and you have recently passed your advanced driving test with the IAM.

Now, who would like to tell me that in both cases a human would respond in a similar fashion to the machine?

In case 1, with machine justice, i’m off scott free, in situation 2, you’re getting a Fine and some points.

See what i mean 😉

Not constantly for several hundred metres, unless you are misusing the overtaking lanes. Was it really that congested so late at night?

Good thing you don’t need to be convinced. Are you saying that, when surrounded by traffic I should be watching my satnav instead?

No, I’m saying that you should have the ability even if

unfamilar road, late night, long journey.

and

surrounded by traffic

to glance at a speed warning on your satnav, or take notice of some signs just 300 meters back from the speed camera!

you’re just putting in the boot for pleasure

Yes, yes I am. with this and the not overtaking when opportunity clearly presents itself, you are painting a picture of an unobservant, reluctant and poor driver. This is OK though as you’ve nearly convinced me it’s everyone else’s fault.

However, signs should be designed to be noticeable. We’re not talking about children’s faces or baby robins here, things that randomly occur. If you’re designing where to put signs and how big to make them, you should be looking at the situation and making sure that people aren’t likely to miss it.

I wonder what % of people driving through that camera last week (for instance) actually got caught. Bet it’s a pretty small number which would mean the majority saw the speed limit signs. Just saying…

you are painting a picture of an unobservant, reluctant and poor driver

Are you aware how things can be misinterpreted on the internet? You are for example painting a picture of yourself as a bellend, but I wouldn’t judge you based on this picture because I’ve not met you.

Bet it’s a pretty small number which would mean the majority saw the speed limit signs.

You bet, do you? Oh well that’s me convinced, what a sound argument.

I’d bet it’s a relativley high number. What do you think about that, eh? Mm?

At no point is there any human interaction, the perpitrator ends up “hating” the system for penalising them for something that in their mind was incredibly minor and it erodes their confidence in both the legal system and also is, imo, actually more likely to make them miss the entire point of the speed camera in the first place.

Well that’s a reasonable point. However, the limit stands, and I’ve no problem with being caught. I was speeding. I would not have the camera removed. I should’ve seen the sign.

not overtaking when opportunity clearly presents itself

That was NOT EVER EVER the point of that thread. Your reading comprehension is utterly shit.

I imagine theres all kind of tenious defense given for speeding in the last 7 pages.

My opinion for what its worth as a relative of someone killed by a speeding motorist is that its indefensible.

You wouldnt post how you only tampered a little bit with small boys or only stole from people who could afford it.

Same with speeding a limits a limit, not just when you agree with it.

Same with speeding a limits a limit, not just when you agree with it.

+1

Don’t think anyone defended speeding in the thread. Not going back to double check though, I’m not that bored.

That’s a beauty of a response.

you’re just putting in the boot for pleasure

Yes, yes I am.

Carry on Mr Poor Driver

lots of love

A Bellend.

flicker – Member
Don’t think anyone defended speeding in the thread. Not going back to double check though, I’m not that bored.

But bored enough to post?

I can see an example on this page.