Got a speeding ticket!

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  • Got a speeding ticket!
  • sbob
    Member

    molgrips – Member

    Don’t we all?

    I regularly do.
    Do you?

    You could be next

    I’ve spent my whole life not getting caught for the laws that I break, I don’t intend in getting caught now.

    the minimum is exceeded in many areas all over the country, this is a situation that would benefit from that approach

    They have exceeded the minimum, stop making excuses.

    If this is piss taking it needs to be funnier

    It only matters that I find it funny. πŸ˜›

    My issue is with people thinking they don’t need to stick to speed limits. This isn’t me.

    You haven’t stuck to the speed limit anyway!
    Is it ok for you to unknowingly speed, yet not ok for people to choose a safe speed to drive at, despite this being exactly what you were unwittingly doing?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    If I understand Butcher’s question he is asking “what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?”

    I think the answer is 30 limit, since that is the applicable NSL for that area, but it would be a dozy bit of signing as it is bound to lead to confusion.

    (Judging by the random brake lights at speed cameras round here, some people seem to struggle with the NSL on single and dual carriageways – never mind using that sign on an residential street).

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I regularly do.
    Do you?

    Of course.

    Is it ok for you to unknowingly speed, yet not ok for people to choose a safe speed to drive at, despite this being exactly what you were unwittingly doing?

    Seriously? You think there’s no moral difference between doing something deliberately and accidentally (whilst trying not to do it)?

    However, I didn’t say that it was ok to unknowingly speed. If you read the thread I’m not saying it’s ok.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?

    How far apart are the streetlights?

    butcher
    Member

    The meaning of the National Speed Limit sign is defined in the Highway Code and it is different depending on what vehicle you are driving.

    You should not be recognising urban and rural settings in determining the speed limit at all.

    Urban and Rural are probably not the best choice of words, but the government do clearly state that the National Speed Limit is 30mph in ‘Built-up areas’, as per the link already posted:

    http://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

    I’m still not sure how a built-up area is defined?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    molgrips wrote:

    You think there’s no moral difference between doing something deliberately and accidentally (whilst trying not to do it)?

    Of course not. There’s a quite clear difference between deliberately driving at a safe speed for the conditions and not being capable of doing what you’re trying to do.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    There’s a quite clear difference between deliberately driving at a safe speed for the conditions and not being capable of doing what you’re trying to do

    Since you’re going down this route, I’ll follow.

    How do you know if it’s a safe speed?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Just read something interesting on wikipedia whilst looking for the official definition of “built-up area”.

    Apparently the TSRGD rules state they CANNOT put 30mph repeater signs on a street that has regular street lamps:

    Direction 11 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (TSRGD 2002) defines the requirements for the placing of speed-limit repeater signs. This states that speed-limit repeater signs cannot be placed along a road on which there is carriageway lighting not more than 183 metres apart and which is subject to a 30 mph speed limit. The Department will not make exceptions to this rule.

    So that may answer part of your point mol.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    they CANNOT put 30mph repeater signs on a street that has regular street lamps:

    Where the spacing is less than 183m

    Why does everyone keep ignoring this bit?

    Graham yes I read that too, and it’s bizarre.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    If I don’t run into anything it was clearly safe.

    I should maybe have put one of these on my previous post πŸ˜‰

    sbob
    Member

    You’re suggesting the government web page is incorrect?

    Yes, I have explained why.
    That webpage is not law.

    So I leave my house and drive down the road. I don’t pass a sign. Does that mean the speed limit isn’t 30?

    Unless you have your motor vehicles delivered by helicopter, then you would have passed a sign on the way to your house.

    I think you’re getting confused because NSL is usually used as an abbreviation for “NSL outside built up areas”.

    I assure you I am not the one who is confused.

    So are 60 limits.

    There are very few 60 or 70 limit roads, in England at least. You’re getting confused between a 60 limit and the NSL, which is variable, but without the aforementioned signage, in a car, on a road that is single carriageway, the NSL would be 60, not 30.

    Likewise in molgrip’s scenario, if it wasn’t for the large 30mph roundels, the regular and obvious street lighting, and the *massive 30mph signs painted on the road, the NSL would be 70, not 30 (in a car, assuming it is actually a dual carriageway).

    *actually has no legal bearing, but included for effect.

    sharkbait
    Member

    I only spotted how close they were when it was too late.

    It was late at night, so unless they’d switched the lights off, maybe a quick trip to Specsavers may be in order Molly!

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    molgrips wrote:

    Where the spacing is less than 183m

    I always concentrate really hard on my satnav to measure the exact spacing between streetlamps, as I wouldn’t want to get the speed limit wrong. Clearly repeater signs must not be used as it would be a tragedy if motorists lost the ability to measure streetlamp spacing.

    sbob
    Member

    molgrips – Member

    Since you’re going down this route, I’ll follow.

    How do you know if it’s a safe speed?

    You should already know the answer to this question molgrips, as you were driving safely in excess of the speed limit.

    konabunny
    Member

    a classic speed camera crash last weekend on the A3, massive rear end shunt right at the camera where clearly the guy in front had slammed his brakes on when the saw the camera.

    Sounds like a classic following-too-close-behind crash.

    tinybits
    Member

    Pedant Mode on:

    sbob Β» aracer – Member
    https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
    I actually had that page open in a tab already.
    It is incorrect.
    If there are no signs then the speed limit is never 30.

    You’re suggesting the government web page is incorrect?

    So I leave my house and drive down the road. I don’t pass a sign. Does that mean the speed limit isn’t 30?

    I think you’re getting confused because NSL is usually used as an abbreviation for “NSL outside built up areas”.

    30mph roads are always signed on entry

    So are 60 limits.

    But surely aracer, you’re arguing that the National Speed Limit is 60, where as that website is handily titled National Speed LimitS therefore implying that there are differing limits, from 30 to 70mph? In common useage, the NSL as signed bu the white circle with a black stripe, indicates 60 (for a car), interestingly it used to mean unlimited.

    Pedant mode off

    What’s all this about the spacing of street lamps? I thought that for an area to be ‘street lit’ (is that right?) it was 3 lights. Then if there is no other indication of the speed limit it defaults to 30. That was certainly the teaching on my awareness course

    sbob
    Member

    aracer – Member

    I always concentrate really hard on my satnav to measure the exact spacing between streetlamps, as I wouldn’t want to get the speed limit wrong. Clearly repeater signs must not be used as it would be a tragedy if motorists lost the ability to measure streetlamp spacing.

    Can we start arguing about whether a streetlamp is a streetlamp or whether it is road lighting?
    I believe the height of the light is the defining factor, though I can never seem to find the definition.
    Would be useful to help those motorists that can better estimate distance in the vertical rather than horizontal plane.

    Jamie
    Member

    Wunhundred!

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    sbob wrote:

    Unless you have your motor vehicles delivered by helicopter, then you would have passed a sign on the way to your house.

    Strangely enough the first time I ever drove a car was in a 30 limit, and I don’t think I passed a single speed limit sign for the whole of my first drive. I’m fairly when I’ve collected every car I’ve owned I’ve been in a 30 limit without passing a sign (no need for a helicopter). Hence it seems quite logical to assume normal starting point as being in a 30 limit and you have to pass a sign not to be in one.

    Have you ever stopped to wonder whether it’s you that’s strange if your normal journeys start somewhere other than your house?

    the regular and obvious street lighting

    Which still aren’t signs, and as pointed out by molgrips you need a tape measure to determine the speed limit from them.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I thought that for an area to be ‘street lit’ (is that right?) it was 3 lights.

    Three lights, not more than 183 metres apart.

    From wikipedia (which sources the TSRGD guidance):

    Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart“. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.

    As set out in paragraph 45, it is generally recognised that a β€˜system’ of street lighting could be three or more lamps spaced not more than 183 metres apart.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_%28Highway_Code%29

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Unless you have your motor vehicles delivered by helicopter, then you would have passed a sign on the way to your house.

    What if I’m picking up a car that someone else drove? Say my missus left it in town and I have to go pick it up? Should I quiz the previous driver to determine what the last speed limit sign they passed was? Or just get my 183 metre tape measure out? πŸ˜€

    sbob
    Member

    aracer – Member

    Strangely enough the first time I ever drove a car was in a 30 limit, and I don’t think I passed a single speed limit sign for the whole of my first drive. I’m fairly when I’ve collected every car I’ve owned I’ve been in a 30 limit without passing a sign (no need for a helicopter). Hence it seems quite logical to assume normal starting point as being in a 30 limit and you have to pass a sign not to be in one.

    Have you ever stopped to wonder whether it’s you that’s strange if your normal journeys start somewhere other than your house?

    Now you’re just being facetious.
    Are you trying to tell me that on the way to your house, before you had a licence, you never passed a 30 limit sign?
    Were you born at home and lived in your basement all your life?
    Have you only ever bought a car from people who live on the same estate?

    No.

    So you would have passed 30 sign.

    Which still aren’t signs

    Yes they are.

    and as pointed out by molgrips you need a tape measure to determine the speed limit from them.

    No you don’t, you just need a bit of common sense. Stop making excuses for moller’s shit driving.

    tinybits
    Member

    Cheers Graham.
    Right, next time I’m out and relying on that system, I’ll be getting out and measuring.

    Or, I suppose that I could take it as how it was intended, a bloody good way of indicating the limit that’s likely to only make you drive slower than the posted limit. Seems fair enough.

    konabunny
    Member

    You should already know the answer to this question molgrips, as you were driving safely in excess of the speed limit.

    He believed he was driving safely and was driving in excess of the speed limit, which is a slightly different thing.

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    What if I’m picking up a car that someone else drove? Say my missus left it in town and I have to go pick it up? Should I quiz the previous driver to determine what the last speed limit sign they passed was? Or just get my 183 metre tape measure out?

    If you really can’t remember what the speed limit is, and you are having trouble differentiating between a busy built up town centre and say, a motorway, then driving probably isn’t for you. πŸ˜‰

    sbob
    Member

    He believed he was driving safely and was driving in excess of the speed limit, which is a slightly different thing.

    Correct, but don’t spoil things now, I believe molgrips may be close to having a “eureka” moment. πŸ™‚

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    sbob wrote:

    Now you’re just being facetious.
    Are you trying to tell me that on the way to your house, before you had a licence, you never passed a 30 limit sign?
    Were you born at home and lived in your basement all your life?
    Have you only ever bought a car from people who live on the same estate?

    I was born in a hospital which I believe is in a 30 limit, hence the first speed limit sign I ever passed was one for some different speed limit, though I can’t quite remember exactly where that was or what the speed limit was. I’ll admit to being guilty of inattention.

    Yes of course I passed 30 limit signs before I drove a car – I also passed plenty of other speed limit signs, but the majority of journeys I’ve ever done I’ve not needed to pass a sign to be in a 30 limit. Oh and as mentioned above all the cars I’ve bought I’ve first driven in 30 limits. Without passing a sign. Though I suppose I did once look as a car being sold by a dealership outside an urban area, so it’s all the fault of an obnoxious smarmy salesman that I’ve never had the experience of having to pass a 30 sign before driving a car in a 30 limit.

    If there are no signs then the speed limit is never 30.

    Is it really facetious to point out just how wrong that is in the real world?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    GrahamS wrote:

    Should I quiz the previous driver to determine what the last speed limit sign they passed was?

    Well you could just assume 30 by default as I’m suggesting, though sbob seems to think there’s something wrong with that.

    edward2000
    Member

    Shall we start a debate about how a dual carriage way is defined?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Well you could just assume 30 by default as I’m suggesting, though sbob seems to think there’s something wrong with that.

    No you can’t do that. If you haven’t seen a sign it MUST be a 60 because that is the National Speed Limit. sbob says so πŸ˜‰

    edward2000
    Member

    Butcher – I would refer to the statutory/mandatory instruction which is the Highway code and the law, not government guidance. Thus i would encourage you to not be overly concerned about how a built up area is defined as it goes in no way whatsoever in determining speed limits.

    stumpy01
    Member

    aracer, re the 6pm naughty drivers course….it was one of the AA ones, AA Drivetech perhaps?
    It was 6-9pm with a 15 min wee break. Although their website says it is a 4hr course, so perhaps is was longer than that. Hmmm. Saved me having to take any holiday, anyway.
    I know my mate got done in North Wales as well a couple of years before and had to go back there to do the course.

    After my evening of education I did feel like childishly gunning it all the way home and sicking the vees to authority, but quickly thought better of it…..I’m not very rebellious!

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Shall we start a debate about how a dual carriage way is defined?

    Basically:

    i.e. It doesn’t matter how many lanes there are. The important part is if the roads (carriageways) going in opposite directions have a divider/reservation between them.

    But IIRC there are some nasty niggly details about how big the divider/reservation is between the carriageways, which means that a dual carriageway with too much distance between the carriageways actually turns into two single one-way carriageways, so actually returns to a 60 limit.

    Jamie
    Member

    Although their website says it is a 4hr course, so perhaps is was longer than that.

    My AA Drivetech one was 4hrs, 8am-12pm.

    sbob
    Member

    Aracer, did you teleport to every car you bought? I’m in a 30 limit now, and not driving. How do I know it’s a thirty? By all of the methods I have already mentioned.
    If you can’t remember entering a 30 zone and parking up by the time you next use your car then your level of senility probably dictates that you should not drive.

    Is it really facetious to point out just how wrong that is in the real world?

    It isn’t wrong, and I have clearly explained why, but as you are struggling I will repeat myself.

    You are on a single carriageway road in a car. There is no speed limit roundel. There is no repeater. There are no steetlamps. There are no speed limit signs painted on the road surface.

    There are no signs.

    What is the speed limit for your vehicle?

    It’s 60mph!

    Conversely, you are on a 30 limit road.
    You will be able to see at least one of these signs:
    Roundels (on entering).
    Repeaters.
    Streetlamps.
    Road markings.

    I really can’t make it any easier for you.

    Don’t get hung up on 183 metres. If there are street lights in a row they’ll be within that. It’s just telling you that a solitary streetlight in the middle of nowhere doesn’t make it 30. Like in Narnia or at the end of posh peoples drives.

    sbob
    Member

    GrahamS – Member
    Well you could just assume 30 by default as I’m suggesting, though sbob seems to think there’s something wrong with that.
    No you can’t do that. If you haven’t seen a sign it MUST be a 60 because that is the National Speed Limit. sbob says so

    NSL for a car, on a single carriageway, yes. Otherwise there will be one of the signs that I have mentioned.
    I can’t believe it’s taken someone who deliberately avoids the complex amino acids that were instrumental in the development of the human brain to finally **** get it.

    Halle-****-lujah. πŸ˜†

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Except that streetlamps are streetlamps, not signs. If you’d suggested “If there are no signs or streetlamps (spaced no more than 200yds apart) then the speed limit is never 30” then we might not have had this fascinating diversion.

    sbob wrote:

    Aracer, did you teleport to every car you bought?

    My current one I cycled to, my first one I got driven to by my parents (so in neither case did I need to worry about speed limits before I got there 😈 )

    sbob
    Member

    The streetlamps are a sign. A sign doesn’t have to be text on a flat background, google will help if you are struggling.

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