Froome vs Wiggins

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  • Froome vs Wiggins
  • FunkyDunc
    Member

    Froome doesn’t half look unhealthy though doesn’t he. Too skinny. Mrs FD says he looks more unhealthy than a lot of kemo patients she deals with

    khegs
    Member

    Climbers & GC candidates always seem to look unhealthy

    I remember Rasmussen in 2007 looking like he was auditioning for a part in Schindler’s List

    mogrim
    Member

    Apparently Froome was 10 seconds faster up there than Armstrong back in 2003, pretty good going.

    IainFP
    Member

    “Apparently Froome was 10 seconds faster up there than Armstrong back in 2003, pretty good going”

    Don’t know whether the stage was similar + weather etc etc, which will all obviously have an effect on the time taken too complete a given climb. But, considering what LA was up to in 2003 there is a little worrying thought in the back of my mind…………………. 😥

    Premier Icon colournoise
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    And so it begins.

    In reality, those questions are bound to be asked sadly.

    Millar is convinced they’re clean at Sky – whether that opinion holds any credence though I guess depends on your view of him.

    IainFP
    Member

    Well I desperately hope Sky are clean. Deep down I think they are.

    But 1/2 and demolishing the rest of the peloton, not a few seconds, it does smack of USPS. I certainly think we’re seeing Bertie riding clean now!

    Premier Icon rOcKeTdOg
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    @gozbike

    Chris Froome appears to ride like he’s pushing a shopping trolley. #2013tourdefrance

    😀

    warton
    Member

    I don’t want to get into this again, have just spend an hour on twitter debating it, but….

    I really want to believe in Froome, because he’s an exciting rider but todays ride stank. 3rd fastest time up the climb (not faster than armstrong, but not far of it) dropping climbers easily, crossing the line looking fresh, while other climbers cross the line looking dead, totally shot to bits.

    Personally I don’t think you can go up climbs that fast, pushing out over 400 watts clean.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Apparently Froome was 10 seconds faster up there than Armstrong back in 2003

    Sastre won the stage and Armstrong was 4 th getting dropped on the climb by Ulrich and others

    Here at just under 48 mins you hear Phil describe him as having a terrible day 😀

    So a clean Froome was only 10 seconds faster than doper having a bad day – so essentially what you are saying is he is clean
    Nice innuendo but the 10 seconds faster than LA does not really cut it
    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJyZ7X_b7Ww[/video]

    Interestingly Sastre won it so you still have something to fuel the innuendo

    Gribs
    Member

    It was worryingly one sided but some of this could be down to the traditional gc contenders being clean/much less doped so they’re much slower than they used to be. Certainly some of the domestics looked stronger than the leaders. If Sky are caught doping then the sport is completely **** so judging from the UCI’s past performance there’s not a chance of that happening.

    Junkyard
    Member

    I don’t think you can go up climbs that fast, pushing out over 400 watts clean.

    its not the watts its the duration and the recovery
    Boardman did well over this for the hour as did Martin and Wiggo in the time trial for an hour [ 450 + all of them]

    Could he do that every single day – if he goes out and tears them all new legs every single day you have a point and if he beats Pantinini Alpe duez time both legs then fine I will start to agree

    Till then lets accept technology and training moves on
    Usain Bolt is faster than ben Johnson but no one thinks he must be a cheat despite the past cheats in that sport

    Not doing this as it is pointless whoever won we would say this

    For example I wonder what edukator will say as he used to argue they “held something back” to not look like cheating and I guess this will now prove it so either way its proof they dope.

    Premier Icon colournoise
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    IainFP – Member
    Well I desperately hope Sky are clean. Deep down I think they are.

    Me too FWIW. If they’re not, I would actually be more disappointed in Brailsford than in the riders (assuming that he would know about it were it happening).

    Premier Icon aracer
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    I’m just waiting for Froome(-dog) to turn around and look his main competitor in the eyes before accelerating off up the road. 😈

    I did notice in the post race comments they mentioned Contador not being so good “post drugs ban” 😉

    As for the spoiler thing, well the thread title isn’t as it doesn’t mention or even really hint at the result. It would actually have been worse if it had been titled “froome vs wiggins – spoilers” as that would have made it clear Froome(-dog) did something. If you can’t avoid reading a thread which is clearly likely to discuss today’s stage before you’ve watched the highlights, then more fool you – it is possible to not read threads about the Tour (which are clearly going to be about the Tour from the title) if you’re trying to avoid spoilers.

    stanfree
    Member

    I’m not a Froome fan but have to say he was amazing today , It’s a shame we have to immediately start talking about doping when someone does well.
    That said I think the big teams are using PED’s but are so far advanced there PED’s are not banned substances so therefore clean.
    The way Froome accelerated when Contador , Evans and Valverde faded was something else. I’m not a sky fan but Porte and Kiryenka are something else.

    Still the 100th tour has been pretty decent so far andIt’s prompted me to book a holiday in the south of France for next year.

    warton
    Member

    Boardman did well over this for the hour as did Martin and Wiggo in the time trial for an hour [ 450 + all of them]

    Thats a good point and I take it on board. with LA, i was very much “he’s doping”, i’m not like that with Froome at all, I see stuff I don’t believe, but i’m happy to be put right 🙂

    I’m not a sky fan but Porte and Kiryenka are something else.

    I thought Kennaugh was the best sky support rider today, blinding performance.

    Just watched the highlights. I agree Froome/Porte/Sky were fantastic. So to address the point in the thread, could Wiggins have lived with this? I doubt it – I don’t think he could have gone with the accelerations up the final climb. However Wiggins won last year and was the best rider overall. Yes Froome looked a bit nippier in a couple of places but Wiggo put time into him in the TTs. Also Froome had no pressure on him. This year the pressure is on Froome. He was stronger today as was Porte but we are only a week in. Watch Contador attack in the coming stages.
    As to who is clean or not…..So we have learnt that if it looks too good to be true than it is. However Froome did not win by that much, it was not like Armstrong putting 3 to 4 minutes into everybody on the first mountain finish.

    deviant
    Member

    stanfree – Member
    That said I think the big teams are using PED’s but are so far advanced there PED’s are not banned substances so therefore clean.

    The above quote is worth exploring further.
    If a substance is a PED but new and therefore not banned yet is it still cheating?

    The ‘legal highs’ market is huge and continually skirts around laws by changing the chemical structure of a substance about to be banned…the inventors/chemists stay one step ahead of the authorities.

    Now, if this is being done for something as mundane as kids wanting to get high at the weekend without getting pinged by the Police then who’s to say it isnt happening in top level sport?

    This is obviously conjecture but it does make one think.
    If there is doping i’m sure Brailsford doesnt know, in Tyler Hamilton’s book he speaks of the days pre-Festina affair whereby teams had a slush fund and organised doping for the riders but afterwards it was every man for himself and up to the individual to organise their own PEDs.

    Anyway enough of the shady side of our sport, it was great theatre and i loved watching it…i’d love Sky to do a one-two with Froome and Porte this year….two years in a row, has it been done before?

    Kennaugh was immense too, a coming of age ride for him….he’ll be Sky’s next main man…they could have a hold on the GC of the Tour for some years yet.

    Guardian article

    “Tim Kerrison, the Australian coach behind Bradley Wiggins’s Tour de France and Olympic triumphs of 2012, has speculated that one reason for Team Sky’s success may be that they have been able to jump into a “knowledge gap” that has been left in cycling as teams focused on the expertise and logistics of doping at the expense of coaching and rider development.”

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
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    Porte looks like all the warm weather training back home has paid off (or sat drinking coffee every morning when I saw him) obviously if Porte had been lead up the hill he could have destroyed Froome which means he’s actually better than Wiggins which means he could have won last year etc. etc.
    In the end of the day Sky are putting a very strong team together, having the 2nd strongest man on the team as a GC contender helps the team leader to do this sort of thing. It’s not an accident.
    Also it’s only the 1st day in the mountains and a very long way to Paris.

    Interesting reading comments on other threads about Froome staring at his SRM, his face suggested it was reading 100%/redlined and he was riding as hard as he knew he could.

    I’m not a sky fan but Porte and Kiryenka are something else.

    Kiryenka is awesomez to watch, completely expressionless, totally smooth with upper body not moving a millimetre, must be soul destroying to be riding alongside with your shoulders rolling obviously hanging out of your @rse.

    thought Kennaugh was the best sky support rider today, blinding performance.

    agreed for yesterday’s stage, nice humble interview where he said he was worried he couldn’t live up to the expectation.

    they could have a hold on the GC of the Tour for some years yet.

    Dunno whether this is deliberate but it certainly appears to be the case, as long as they offer enough incentive for them to stay (promise of a GT team leader role-Porte explicitly mentioned 2014 Giro when he re-signed) you’d have to think long and hard about leaving the strongest team with the biggest budget in order to take them on, they seem to be recruiting and developing so much talent there will be a real legacy.

    Gary_M
    Member

    I wasn’t sure last year but it’s pretty clear from today’s stage that Froome could have destroyed Wiggins in the mountains last year.

    Your talking nonsense and I’m not sure why you’re dragging up the old ‘froome v wiggins’ debate that was done to death last year.

    A whole year of specific training has passed since the 2012 tour and the aim of the sky team for 2013 is for froome to win the Tour de France, the aim last year was for wiggins to win.

    Froome did an amazing ride yesterday and put a lot if time into his rivals but these two weeks to go and a lot can happen yet.

    Your post appears to be from someone who doesn’t know a great deal about road riding.

    And clearly you’ve had a rethink from last year.

    Big Wig’s triumph (fingers crossed) in the Tour de France ranks as the greatest sporting achievement by a Brit ever in my opinion.

    mrblobby
    Member

    Interesting reading comments on other threads about Froome staring at his SRM, his face suggested it was reading 100%/redlined and he was riding as hard as he knew he could.

    I don’t see why people make such a big deal of this. If I’m putting in a big effort on a road climb I’ll often have my head down staring at the computer. Just something to focus on, be it maintaining a cadence, power, speed etc. They aren’t riding these stages to enjoy the scenery.

    Dunno whether this is deliberate but it certainly appears to be the case, as long as they offer enough incentive for them to stay (promise of a GT team leader role-Porte explicitly mentioned 2014 Giro when he re-signed) you’d have to think long and hard about leaving the strongest team with the biggest budget in order to take them on, they seem to be recruiting and developing so much talent there will be a real legacy.

    I guess if there really is no doping and Sky’s training really is as advanced compared to other teams as they claim then I can see why riders would be reluctant to leave. Having said that Dowsett is doing a great job at Movistar.

    Wondering if Wiggins will leave Sky with Porte and Froome earmarked for giro and tour wins next year. Looks like there may be a vacant position for a GC rider at Trek soon.

    MrBlobby that was the point I was making, he didnt look like he was conserving or measuring his effort (which seemed to be the insinuation), if he WAS staring at his SRM it wasnt telling him anything his legs and lungs werent!

    I think Wiggins will go, as in retire, maybe after a crack at worlds/hour record? He seems to have lost his motivation and Sky don’t need him, they could have a different team leader at each grand tour. I was a little irked by his comment about not wanting to ride the Vuelta-not sure being paid ~£2M a year gives you the right to choose whether you do your job or not?

    mrblobby
    Member

    MrBlobby that was the point I was making, he didnt look like he was conserving or measuring his effort (which seemed to be the insinuation), if he WAS staring at his SRM it wasnt telling him anything his legs and lungs werent!

    Ah I see… yes I concur 🙂

    I think Wiggins will go, as in retire, maybe after a crack at worlds/hour record? He seems to have lost his motivation and Sky don’t need him, they could have a different team leader at each grand tour. I was a little irked by his comment about not wanting to ride the Vuelta-not sure being paid ~£2M a year gives you the right to choose whether you do your job or not?

    Is a good point. Sponsors money etc. I’m sure they’ll want Wiggo to be riding as it’s more exposure for the brand. Can’t really see him doing the Vuelta though. He may do it as a warm up for the Worlds I guess but typical Vuelta climbs really don’t seem to suit him.

    Be interesting to see if he has a crack at the hour, especially as Cancellara has said he’d be doing it sometime in the next year.

    I wonder if Wiggo has considered a crack at a classics campaign? Reckon physically he’d be well suited to that (reckon the weight loss required for a grand tour is a problem for him and makes him quite fragile.) Would then be an obvious place for him on the Sky classics team.

    Edit: … could get properly excited about Wiggins up against Cancellara and Sagan next spring. Wiggo, please make it so (as I’m sure you are bound to be following this forum.)

    Junkyard
    Member

    Now, if this is being done for something as mundane as kids wanting to get high at the weekend without getting pinged by the Police then who’s to say it isnt happening in top level sport?

    This is obviously conjecture but it does make one think.
    So some people like geting off their tits on legal highs therefore sports people have manufacturers to tweak PEDS to stay inside the rules

    I agree that is indeed conjecture

    Tom B
    Member

    Not sure where people are getting the idea that Froome was quicker than Armstrong up the climb from. He wasn’t! Close to his time yes, but not quicker.

    Not sure where the idea that Wiggo looks cool on a bike is coming from either?! His TT position is easily the most classy in the peloton, but on a road bike he looks like a bag of spanners….cast your mind back to the Giro and remember his elegant descending style. Then again compared to the visual massacre that is Froome on a bike I suppose he doesn’t look too bad.

    IA
    Member

    the visual massacre that is Froome on a bike

    Indeed, he’s all arms and legs, plus tall so a spindly bike – puts me in mind of a spider trying to use chopsticks.

    Premier Icon zippykona
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    All I know is I like my yellow jersey wearer to have attacked in the mountains, regardless of who they are.
    I’m still sore about Fignon losing to an aerodynamic saddle when he did all that hard work.

    Junkyard
    Member

    He looks bloody fast on a bike who cares about “form”

    he does look thin and spindly though

    Edric 64
    Member

    I’m still sore about Fignon losing to an aerodynamic saddle when he did all that hard work.

    It was the aerobars that cost Fignon ,according to his book he then went to use them in a race later in the year and they wouldnt let him

    Indeed, he’s all arms and legs, plus tall so a spindly bike – puts me in mind of a spider trying to use chopsticks

    a preying mantis pushing a shopping trolley whilst gripping mobile phone between shoulder and ear?

    Premier Icon cookeaa
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    I’m reading Wiggins book ATM it actually goes into a fair bit of detail about how sky went about 2012, and presumably how they will be going about 2013 now.

    The one thing that comes across is how important Kerrison and Sutton were to Wiggins win and the the fact that to take a GC a team leader needs to be a proper team leader…

    Leading after a mountain stage with two weeks left means almost nothing if the GC win is your goal, a sustainable pace, higher than his competition for the next 14 days is what froome really needs, I’d like him to win I just hope he’s not torn his own legs off for a stage win forgetting the bigger picture, he’ll have been in the red a fair bit yesterday so of course he was looking at the SRM.

    Premier Icon metalheart
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    All of this has happened before and will happen again….

    grum
    Member

    Admittedly I know next to bugger all about road racing, but that performance definitely seems suspicious to me – and Sky’s dominance kind of casts doubt on Wiggins’ win last year as well. As above I would suspect stuff that isn’t yet banned. Hope I’m wrong.

    Premier Icon aracer
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    could Wiggins have lived with this? I doubt it – I don’t think he could have gone with the accelerations up the final climb

    What accelerations? Were you watching a different stage to me? The one I saw Froome(-dog) rode everybody off his wheel riding tempo, with at the most two accelerations, the only one ITV deigned to show was a pretty tame one. Accelerating on a climb is also vastly over-rated – you’ve probably spent too much time listening to Ligget and Sherwen talking about “pure climbers” having the ability to accelerate, a line they’re still peddling this year, ignoring the fact that Wiggins (and Froome) showed everybody how to do it last year by riding tempo to catch the “pure climbers” who’d accelerated off the front and then faded. Not to mention Quintana yesterday getting caught by the Sky train riding tempo – did his accelerations help him get to the finish line faster?

    Premier Icon aracer
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    i’d love Sky to do a one-two with Froome and Porte this year….two years in a row, has it been done before?

    I’m guessing you’ve not been following road cycling that long, as it’s fairly well known? 85/86, but they went one better and did it with the same two riders both years.

    Gary_M
    Member

    Admittedly I know next to bugger all about road racing, but that performance definitely seems suspicious to me

    As you say you know bugger all about road riding.

    bikebouy
    Member

    Such a shame when threads like this turn to shit talking about PED’s and the random speculation dished out.

    Carry on, as you were. 🙄

    grum
    Member

    As you say you know bugger all about road riding.

    No need to be a dick about it though is there. I’m allowed an opinion, and was honest about how informed that opinion is.

    Plenty of people who do know a lot about road racing have their suspicions too.

    Such a shame when threads like this turn to shit talking about PED’s and the random speculation dished out.

    Yes, let’s all just pretend there’s no possibility of cheating in a sport with a massive (recent) history of cheating. 🙄

    Junkyard
    Member

    Again everything is a possibility but generally it requires evidence
    The evidence so far seem to be non sequitors and the opinions of non expert witnesses using this logic

    Can we do this with the 100 m sprint then?
    Bolt is the fastest
    in the past the fastest cheated
    Bolt is a cheat

    That is basically the argument and it is bobbins

    How much respect would you like for this guess?
    What other sports would you like to speculate on from a position of relative ignorance?

    There will always be this “speculation” as you cannot prove negative

    What i would prefer is some evidence beyond oh look he is fast therefore he must be a cheat..oh and why only the GC why not say Cav or Sagan? [Or say Bolt from other sports].They are also fast and uncatchable on the right stage for them so why not have a pop at them ?

    grum
    Member

    I read some stuff about Bolt and Jamaican sprinting that sounds pretty suspicious, if that helps. 😉

    How much respect would you like for this guess?
    What other sports would you like to speculate on from a position of relative ignorance?

    Isn’t that pretty much what most people do about most sports?

    Premier Icon scaredypants
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    (as posted on another thread, where Junky told us off for going OT 😳 )

    I don’t know enough about roadies to have a plausible go at “is sky doping?”

    … so here’s my ill-founded bollocks:

    It’s down to the quality of the entire team, isn’t it (and that’s what makes me a bit suspicious) ?

    Sure, not only is Froome bloody good but obviously Porte would make the GC leader for pretty much any other team. Then they’ve got the “domestiques” and this is the bit I can’t do. Are they all way better than everybody elses (B-Hagen, fair enough, he’s quite famous but what about the rest). If they’re genuinely better riders than everybody else’s (and always have been) then fair enough – they’re just the Chelsea/Man City model for purchasing wins. If all of those guys are performing better than anyone expected, …

    I can see though, that they are all very disciplined – none of this Jens on a mad breakaway stuff; they just sit and ride, giving maximum effort and protection for Froome/Wiggo

    (I don’t like sky’s racing tactics but I still hope they’re not doping)

    butcher
    Member

    Guardian article

    “Tim Kerrison, the Australian coach behind Bradley Wiggins’s Tour de France and Olympic triumphs of 2012, has speculated that one reason for Team Sky’s success may be that they have been able to jump into a “knowledge gap” that has been left in cycling as teams focused on the expertise and logistics of doping at the expense of coaching and rider development.”

    This is an interesting one. Could it really be that some of the top riders have had it relatively easy under the influence of illegal PEDs, and are now finding themselves no longer able to compete with the brute force they once used?

    It’s not just Team Sky (and it does appear to be ALL of Team Sky – Froome, Wiggins, Porte, et al). If we go back to the Olympics last year, Team GB were smashing records left, right and centre. Completely dominating every event. They guys. The girls. Everyone.

    Either the entire Brailsford camp are doing something very wrong, or they’re doing something very right.

    HughStew
    Member

    My understanding is that the principal advantage of doping is not so much top level power on a single day, but being able to do it for multiple consecutive stages. If Froome comes out and destroys the field day after day then suspicion will increase, but a single super-effort up one Cat 1, having been very well sheltered for the rest of the day doesn’t look too suspect. I’d rather believe and be disappointed than be automatically cynical.

    Either the entire Brailsford camp are doing something very wrong, or they’re doing something very right.

    Quite. If Sky have jumped into a knowledge gap, then they’ve done it for all their riders.

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