I think they know they did not break him and I think had it been an summit finish he would have attacked again

They will keep trying but i thinks[hope] a few more demoralising days and they will know in their hearts and legs he has their measure and beating and will look for other goals

it’s clearly impossible to know if Froome could have won last year

Agreed and Wiggins wasn’t given the opportunity to defend his jersey this year by Sky although given his season I guess he would have struggled/pulled out anyway. All part of the slightly weird team vs individual riders aspect of road racing.

You can’t call Wiggins a one trick pony when he won the Tour last year.
One trick ponies win the other jerseys 🙂

As Junkyard said he didn’t crack last year when he properly prepared and was ‘ready’ for the tour where Froome struggled on some stages in the Vueletta.

I agree it would have been good to see them on different teams – Roll on Tuesday.

He needed the support last year whereas Froome yesterday was fairly strong in keeping the Movistar pace and also dealing with GC threat rider attacks

Not disagreeing with anything you say but it could be put that Wiggo had support last year so used it. Had Porte stayed with Froome yesterday Froome would have used him.

No question that Froome looks more comfortable in the mountains and he certainly showed a lot of strength, tactical awareness and composure yesterday that Wiggins hasn’t had to show (whether he could have coped is always a matter of opinion – what isn’t is that he would have coped in the same way).

For me the most interesting and enjoyable part of the race is my 13yr old daughter asking questions and being riveted by the stage yesterday.

It’s shaping up to be a riveting tour – Froome looks awesome, but will he be able to do it the hard way without the same level of support that BW had last year? Sky losing Kyrienka and hamstrung by other injuries could make it absolutely nail-biting in the Alps.

My 10-year-old daughter is loving it too.

You can’t call Wiggins a one trick pony when he won the Tour last year.
One trick ponies win the other jerseys

As Junkyard said he didn’t crack last year when he properly prepared and was ‘ready’ for the tour where Froome struggled on some stages in the Vueletta.

Maybe I could have phrased it better. I meant that Wiggo seems to have just one pace based on his time trial and track abilities and I think would struggle under similar conditions to what Froome faced yesterday.

Don’t get me wrong, I also think Wiggo’s win the the Tour last year is the greatest performance by a British sportsperson in my lifetime, possibly ever. I was rooting for him every day and didn’t really subscribe to the idea that Froome would necessarily have beaten him last year. In most cases there can only be one team leader and teams perform best when their focus is on getting one guy to the finish line rather than several.

I think last year’s Vuelta was one of the most incredible tours I have ever seen. With multiple mountain top finishes and even the one time trial going over a Cat 1 climb I think, it was obviously designed for the likes of Contador, Valverde and Ridriquez.

The fact that Froome was even in there with a shout says volumes about his ability and he may have understandably failed on some of the brutal stages the way those three seemed to be ganging up on him at times.

I think if Wiggins had been in the race yesterday without Froome to support him, he’d have been dropped.

WTF? Andy Shleck finised in the lead group. Andy bloody Shleck! If Andy Shleck (and Evans and a load of other no hopers) can keep up I think Wiggins would have been able too keep up in the form he was in last year.

And I bet Wiggo was sitting at home yesterday with a smug grin on his face as Porte was dropped so early in the stage saying to himself “Now Chris, that is why I didn’t want you to needlessly attack in the mountains last year”

WTF? Andy Shleck finised in the lead group. Andy bloody Shleck! If Andy Shleck (and Evans and a load of other no hopers) can keep up I think Wiggins would have been able too keep up in the form he was in last year.

Would that be 4 Grand Tour podium finishes out of the 7 he’s started (and 5 he’s finished) Andy Schleck? He’s been injured then sort of shit since mid-2012 but I don’t think yesterday was a day you could consider easy. Only 23 riders out of 183 managed to finish within 25 seconds of the winner, the next group rolled in almost 4 minutes down.

jfletch – Member

If Andy Shleck (and Evans and a load of other no hopers) can keep up I think Wiggins would have been able too keep up in the form he was in last year.

No hopers? 😆

I think Wiggins smile would have frozen pretty quick as Froome showed himself more than up to the task. I don’t think many wearing yellow would have chased Valverde when he bridged across, but was the perfect call yesterday.

Hmmm…….Evans a no hoper as well? You mean the guy who won the TDF a few years ago. I think his recent 3rd in the Giro just took a bit much out of him sadly although he is one tough mother and there are still 2 weeks to go……

Also I thought Wiggins’ “I’ll never ride le tour again” interview read more like “I realise it was a unique set of circumstances that gave me the chance to win last year, and as that will never happen again what’s the point in trying?”

Evans best days are behind him
Competitive but when it gets really tough he will be left wanting

Shame though how many tours would he have won had everyone been clean..lot of respect for “dont touch me”

This pic says it all to me-It’s the day Wiggo supposedly blew a gasket & Froome had to wait for him to take him to the line……………….

Would that be 4 Grand Tour podium finishes out of the 7 he’s started (and 5 he’s finished) Andy Schleck?

Yeah, the Shleck comment was slightly tounge in cheek but he has been crap all year and did lose minuntes on the previous stage.

Only 23 riders out of 183 managed to finish within 25 seconds of the winner

23 riders is actually a huge group for this type of stage. They normally finish in much smaller groups and the final group is much more select. There were still a lot of domestiques left. Sky just suffered because of the pace set by Garmin very early and their grandstanding the previous day.

Wiggins would have hung on fine as they hills were the gradual long type that suit him and the tempo set by Movistar was also to his strenght.

It would have been a different race if Wiggins had been there though, he wouldn’t have had a minunte over his nearest contender as he wouldn’t have attacked the day before, he probably wouldn’t have been in yellow, instead waiting for the TT next week. So we will never know if Wiggins or Froome is the best unless they are on different teams but at their peak together.

But could Wiggins have finished with the leaders yesterday? Almost certainly yes, to claim otherwise is crazy.

sadly, this may be Armstrong’s biggest legacy to the sport

very true, and as you say, very sad.

I was very suspect on Saturday, but Sundays stage has put a lot of my worries to bed (FWIW). If sky were doping they wouldn’t have been dropped the way they were. US Postal / Discovery / T – Mobile would have been at the front of the race day after day.

I also really liked the way Froome handled the questions about drugs, he didn’t say I’ve never tested positive, and then ban the interviewer from ever speaking to him again (Armstrong), or start swearing and acting like a brat (Wiggins), he politely, calmly addressed the situation, very nice job.

Also I thought Wiggins’ “I’ll never ride le tour again” interview read more like “I realise it was a unique set of circumstances that gave me the chance to win last year, and as that will never happen again what’s the point in trying?”

I thought that too but couldn’t have put it better. Having said that I can only imagine how much dedication and effort it takes to not only compete in a Grand Tour but to win it. Don’t forget Wiggo also had his eye on the Olympics last year as well. I guess winning the TdF, a gold medal in a home Olympic time trial and then being made a knight of the realm, there’s not much more to motivate you.

I just think he could have delayed that announcement until maybe next season. It looks a little like sour grapes leading up to the Tour and that his heart wasn’t really in it this year.

There’s a lot to be said for quitting at the top. Maybe if he’d achieved that a few years ago we’d have seen a bit more from him but he is getting a bit long in the tooth now! 🙂

Emac, was that Stage 17 ?

But could Wiggins have finished with the leaders yesterday? Almost certainly yes, to claim otherwise is crazy.

True

Wiggins was no mug at climbing he was just tempo
That said Froome is the stronger climber

As for the pic – there is no doubt Froome waited for Wiggo and supporting him cost him the Vuletta
Not saying any of this means he would have beaten him

Wiggo seems to have just one pace based on his time trial and track abilities and I think would struggle under similar conditions to what Froome faced yesterday.

Do you actually have to attack to win climbs? Does it get you to the top quicker?

I think physiologically the less time you spend riding anaerobically the faster you’ll be overall. See last year – people attacked, got up the road, but they just got winched back in. That burst of speed does cost you.

As for the pic – there is no doubt Froome waited for Wiggo

Yep – Froome waited but who is to say what would have happend if he hadn’t? He may have cracked and Wiggo ground his way back up, he may have gone on to win the stage only to suffer from it the next day, he may have not had enough left for the TT and lost any extra time he gained, he may hve been fine and gone on to win the tour.

But it’s all just speculation, all we can be ceratin of is that Wiggins won the tour and to do that he had to not only ride around France but also put in all the effort in previous years to get him the prevelidged postion of being the team leader. Had Froome won Olympic golds, finished 3rd in the tour, won the Dauphine 2 years in a row etc. then maybe he would have been the leader as he is now.

There seems to be a general view that Wiggins can’t ‘do the accelerations’ ‘can’t climb’ etc etc Looking back at his past he has already adapted his style from track to GC contender, I think he will prepare again for the tour next year by training using climbing and attacking…Is that so difficult to do? Wiggins can beat Froome, he has more class and he is tougher mentally.

Shame really it’s a contest we’ll never see for as long as they’re on the same team. I think even if Wiggo did train for sprinty hill accelerations, Froome-dawg would still be able to drop him – just a matter of, can Froomey make up more through attacking the mountains that Wiggo would win back on the TT? Depends entirely on the course, don’t it.

BTW, I watched the tennis yesterday, then the tour after, and guess what – to avoid any risk of having the result spoiled, I stayed away from cycling forums! Mental!! Really, you’d have to be a bit of a tool to do anything else…

indeed and what a shame you cannot trust folk to not do spoilers in the title eh

I think there’s as much chance of Wiggo dancing on the pedals up 20% climbs attacking off the bunch as there is Quintana winning a World Cup DH at Fort Bill. He’s just not that type of rider.

indeed and what a shame you cannot trust folk to not do spoilers in the title eh

Seriously! Get over it.

Its a discussion about the favourite for the TDF, during the TDF. WTF did you expect us to be talking about?

I think he will prepare again for the tour next year by training using climbing and attacking…Is that so difficult to do?

He’s been climbing for a long time, the issue is he’s more of a tempo rider. Some riders have things they do better than others and they maximise on that rather than compromise across the board and become mediocre. Look at the specialist sprinters who struggle on the big mountain stages because they’ve focused on what makes them exceptional.

The way he rides is likely to work really well for some of the classics; no long mountains, just short sharp hills and miles and miles of flattish (compared to big mountains) terrain where getting into a rhythm is key. Look at Boonen and Gilbert for example. I think it’d be fantastic to see him winning some of the spring classics and would possibly remove some of the weighty expectations that come with grand tour starts.

Wiggins has made no secret of his love of the classics. He’s already hinted Roubaix may be a target next year. If he puts a stone back on he’d be a formidable classics rider, if he learns how to handle a bike properly 😀

Seriously! Get over it.

Over what?

Its a discussion about the favourite for the TDF, during the TDF. WTF did you expect us to be talking about?
The TdF Favourite and the race. I never said this thread was a spoiler [ I had watched the stage live as well FWIW] and was never cross at it I simply suggested that it was easy to avoid spoiler titles and then we would not have to avoid here.

TBH i think doing blatant spoilers is pretty low and a shitty thing to do
I am not sure this is one mind from title alone

following in with next post

I still dont think this is a spoiler title but i do think they should not be allowed

All form page 1 FWIW

Yesterday I missed the end so i did have to avoid here in case of spoilers as did you which is a shame but such is life

Dupe

The issue with the Classics for Wiggo is they are very unpredictable and a good chunk of it comes down to luck. It could take years of him bing in the right form at the right time before he even has a opertuinity to win one.

And this is time he doesn’t have. He’s already said he fancies going back to the track for the Olympics as a swansong so that only gives him 2 years.

Sky’s whole premise is that getting up a climb at the theoretical maximum pace will always be quicker than jumping in and out of attacks.

The reason though that attacks can be successful is if you lose the wheel of the man in front (because he attacked), then you lose the [much smaller than on the flat, but still relevant] assistance, plus maybe something psychological.

So if two men (Wiggins and Froome) rode up a climb, then Froome could win by attacking Wiggins.
If Wiggins had a strong team around him, pacing and protecting him up a climb, allowing him to achieve the optimal possible time, then it is likely that he would beat Froome, who would post a sub-optimal time by attacking.

Who is better?

Froome. Because he could also ride like Wiggins, but Wiggins couldn’t ride like Froome.
Wiggins. Because in identical circumstances, his optimal time would be less than Froome’s.

Who knows, who cares. It depends on the circumstances.

Wiggins has made no secret of his love of the classics.

Well he’s Belgian. They love that sort of thing.

Fantombiker – Member

There seems to be a general view that Wiggins can’t ‘do the accelerations’ ‘can’t climb’ etc etc Looking back at his past he has already adapted his style from track to GC contender, I think he will prepare again for the tour next year by training using climbing and attacking…Is that so difficult to do? Wiggins can beat Froome, he has more class and he is tougher mentally. Do you think of Wiggins as a mentally strong rider? He’s one of the strongest time trialers in the world, so obv brings a fearsome mentality from that background, but as a top GT rider it’s not one of his strengths IMHO. He was absolutely all over the place in the Giro, for example, and seems to struggle to put consecutive seasons together.

I think he is tough mentally in that if things are prepared perfectly, everything is in place, then he can really turn the screw and capitalise. He won’t bottle it and will in fact grind his enemies underfoot. But it’s when things aren’t going so smoothly that real mental toughness asserts itself, and this wouldn’t be something Wiggins is known for (IMHO).

Wiggins can beat Froome, he has more class and he is tougher mentally.

Time will tell eh, it’ll certainly be interesting to find out.

Fantombiker – Member
Wiggins can beat Froome, he has more class and he is tougher mentally.

His bike flounce at the Trentino went against both points imo.

French seem to think Froome has a lot more class than Wiggins.

I reckon at 6ft2 Wiggins will always be at a physical disadvantage to Froome as a Tour GC rider.

Would love to see Wiggo at the classics.

His bike flounce at the Trentino went against both points imo.

Although his bike clearly has plenty of class as it parked its self neatly against the wall.

mrblobby – Member

I reckon at 6ft2 Wiggins will always be at a physical disadvantage to Froome as a Tour GC rider.

Froome is 6’1 – how is that going to be such an advantage?

Ah sorry, Wiggo is actually 6’3″. A couple of inches in it. I think in terms of Tour weight, Froome is closer to his “normal” weight than Wiggo. Think this is an advantage for Froome.

True. Ok. Weight wise Brad shed a fair bit when moving from road to track didn’t he?

I think now, they are both listed at 69kg.