[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Things have changed massively by being in the EU.
Better for the STW middle class type and worse for those lower down the pay/education ladder.

@wheel2wheel....once again I'll ask the question.. what has changed for you?

@mikewsmith and this has changed your life how?

Those lower down the pay are being punished by decades of Tory policies continued under Nu Labour

Blaming the EU because Thatcher made us all more right wing and not care for society is daft.

People who voted for Thatcher claiming they have had an epiphany and now care about the poor/working class they have spent decades punishing and demonising is a lie ;they hate Europe so much they will say anything - IDS, Give, Boris and Farage - whatever you want to call them champions of the poor will never be amongst the description.

Better for the STW middle class type and worse for those lower down the pay/education ladder.

Ffs, turning this round can you honestly say nothing has changed in your life?

In 97 Blair swept to power, first thing he did was saddle my brother with student loans, bit of a change in life.
Changes in agriculture policy have impacted my dad a farmer and the stuff I did to support him setting up a cattle tracking system.

Voting to leave the eu will have some deep and far reaching effects on the UK. Even if you didn't notice the stuff in your life go past you will notice these.

Nothing is guaranteed by staying in the EU.

One means - we cannot predict the future for ever therefore we cannot be certain- staying marries /in the EU
the other means No idea everything will change and i have no plan whatsoever. Divorce/Leave

They are not the same degree of "unknowing" or uncertainity

I can honestly say nothing has changed...all the things I did before an election I still did after an election...teachers have carried on teaching..nurses have carried on nursing... ad infinitum. Where are these people who are so affected by elections?

Well here are 3 things
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_Reform_and_Work_Act_2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_and_Planning_Act_2016

Then throw in a small budget
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/budget-2016-some-of-the-things-weve-announced

Still nothing effected you?

@ pondo. 'What has Europe done for us?'

Looks good on paper. How much of that is the EU responsible for?
What it fails to mention is that millions of people in this country are working just to exist on very low pay. Therefore largely negating the advantages of said regulations.

Unite is becoming increasingly toothless under EU rule.

Brexit seems to bring out the worst in people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threat-online-against-family

Fallacy of equivocation- the word means two different things in each statement. One means nothing is certain as we cannot predict the future the other means we have no idea at all what will happen as we have no plan nor idea,
Imagine the choice is staying married or divorce
Both require us to predict the future and what happens so neither is "guaranteed
However one, remaining married as nothign really changes, is far more predictable than the other. This notion they are equivalently "uncertain" or "unknowable" is just not true
One means - we cannot predict the future for ever therefore we cannot be certain- staying marries /in the EU
the other means No idea everything will change and i have no plan whatsoever. Divorce/Leave
They are not the same degree of "unknowing" or uncertainity

. . All that effort just to say you agree with me.

lazybike: are you saying you've never noticed *ANY* changes in your life through as a result of changes in government or policies? Really?

I mean obviously not [i]everything[/i] changes. You still get up in a morning and put your trousers on one leg at a time. But still..

75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed. Tomorrow the 'Vote Remainers' are going to go to the polls to tick a box that in essence gives a thumbs up to another, all be it different dictatorship and carte blanche to continue eating away at the sovereignty so many died to preserve.

All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.

[i]All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.
[/i]

Hmm where have we heard that before...

Tomorrow the 'Vote Remainers' are going to go to the polls to tick a box that in essence gives a thumbs up to another, all be it different dictatorship and carte blanche to continue eating away at the sovereignty so many died to preserve.

75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed. Tomorrow the 'Vote Remainers' are going to go to the polls to tick a box that in essence gives a thumbs up to another, all be it different dictatorship and carte blanche to continue eating away at the sovereignty so many died to preserve.
All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.

Agreed.

Why is that Unite flyer full of lies ?

The equal pay act had nothing to do with the EU nor did the race relation act. Britain wasn't even in the EU when they were introduced. Same goes for the health and safety at work act.

The EU doesn't give a monkeys about "fairness at work", if you are unlucky to have worked for your employer for less than 2 years you can be sacked unfairly and the EU will do absolutely nothing about it.

The EU doesn't even protect the right to strike - the most fundamental and hard fought employment right of all.

Employers can be exempt from the 48 max hours under EU directives.

If telling a pack of blatant lies like that is legal then I'm surprised. If Unite was offering a product or service they certainly wouldn't be allowed to do it.

What it fails to mention is that millions of people in this country are working just to exist on very low pay.

What makes you think that will change if we leave the EU? Seems to be widely agreed that there will be some heavy financial consequences and possibly another recession.

Unite is becoming increasingly toothless under EU rule.

Nothing to do with the Tories anti-union legislation, then. Thanks for clearing up that common misconception.

The EU doesn't even protect the right to strike - the most fundamental and hard fought employment right of all.

That's because we are "sovereign" and "in control". Isn't it great?

I can honestly say nothing has changed...all the things I did before an election I still did after an election...teachers have carried on teaching..nurses have carried on nursing... ad infinitum. Where are these people who are so affected by elections?

75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed.

And one of the things that your Grandfather and his generation did in the aftermath of that war was to try an unite Europe in a common purpose:

"We are engaged in the process of creating a European unit in the world organization of the United Nations. I hope that we shall become one of several continental units which will form the pillars of the world instrument for maintaining security, and be the best guarantee of maintaining peace. I hope that in due course these continental units will be represented in the world organization collectively, rather than by individual States as in the present system, and that we shall be able to settle a great mass of our problems among ourselves in Europe before they are brought, or instead of them being brought, to the world council for decision."

-- [url= http://www.winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/235-1946-1963-elder-statesman/111-the-council-of-europe ]Winston Churchill, 1949[/url]

Why cant the original 9 members of the EU remains just 9?

As Boris said tonight there are (probably) 200 million people in the EU who'd like to get out and more than that who would like a referendum

75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed

An act of treason to vote for an elected government?
Unless you felt that the eu elections were not worthy of your consideration.
Sometime i do wonder about the mentality of some people.
Your grandfather went to war to prevent a horrendous regime from taking over Europe for ever.
Any attempt to compare the eu with the nazi's should offend everyone who fought in that war and the many millions who died in that conflict.
If i were you i would hang my head in shame for that comparison. I would question your humanity if i thought you had any

The thing that scares me the most is that everyone gets a vote in this referendum.

Really annoys me when people say this. We live in a democracy. Just because you disagree with someone else's view doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to it.

@grahams..I can honestly say I've never noticed any change after an election..what changes have you noticed that directly impact you? Have you changed the way you live because of an election result?

DrJ - Member

"Unite is becoming increasingly toothless under EU rule".

Nothing to do with the Tories anti-union legislation, then. Thanks for clearing up that common misconception.

So the EU doesn't defend workers rights then.

So the EU doesn't protect us from Tory governments then.

Thanks for clearing up that common misconception DrJ

Hmm where have we heard that before...

I'd have gone with you are Thomas Mair and I claim my £5

Why I am voting Remain.
by Ben Goldacre, aged 41.

[b]A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.[/b]
The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control. You couldn’t get political agreement from the people in one family, one pub, or one bus. You can’t “vote them out”, you’ve never done that, stop pretending you can do it in the future. Politics is about compromise: terrible, soul-destroying, mature compromise with other people, most of whom are awful. Your local council don’t represent your views and values any better than your MEP.

[b]Immigration is just going to happen.[/b]
In or out of the EU, there will be lots, and lots of immigration: bad luck if you don’t like that. We’re perfectly able to control non-EU immigration, right now, and yet no government ever does. They never will. This is not the fault of the EU, it’s more complicated than that. Deal with it. Immigration will never stop.

[b]“Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault.[/b]
This is not the fault of the EU. It’s your fault. It’s happened slowly. The UK has failed to build houses, failed to train hospital staff, failed to invest in the NHS, failed to build schools. Your country. Your UK. Your government. Your fault. Nobody else. The NHS is staffed by immigrants, they keep it running, they will save your life and build your house. Don’t try to blame them for things that are your fault.

[b]The EU is a good shot at preserving peace.[/b]
Remember that news story about the British generals who think we should leave the EU because NATO preserves peace, not the EU? These are bad generals who only know about guns. Russia right now is an odd, aggressive country. But they didn’t show up at the Ukrainian border with tanks, out of the blue: they manufactured a social and economic pretext before they rolled in. A strong EU makes this kind of pretext harder to contrive. You want to be good close friends with all your neighbours, and their neighbours, as far as the eye can see. That’s how you hold a line that preserves peace: by sharing friendship, sharing trade, and sharing grumbles about crap admin in Brussels. You do not preserve peace by buying and using weapons.

[b]Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers.
[/b]
The Brexit campaign talk about “taking control”, about “building an optimistic future” for yourself. These are things you say to losers: to people who feel they have no control, or a gloomy future. It’s the language of crap self-help books in airport bookshops. You are better than that.

[b]Countries come and go.
[/b]
Right now, people talk about Eastern Europeans like they’re biologically destined to be parasites, because their countries are poorer, and some of their citizens travel for work. That could change, really fast. Polish people are not a biologically inferior race: they lived under communism for four decades, and now they’re catching up. Poland has the fastest growing economy in Europe (faster than Central Europe, faster than the EU-15). Warsaw is full of skyscrapers. Be nice. Make friends now. Cement those ties to a large, fast growing European economy with a rich cultural history.

[b]Brexit will hurt the economy.[/b]
This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.

Ben Goldacre
www.badscience.net

@captain sasquatch...theres a 50 50 chance that I will vote the same as you..no need to be scared.

Why is that Unite flyer full of lies ?

Well said, I would like to add that many of these laws are not enforced in the real world.

Zero hour contracts are commonplace.

Equal pay for women easily sidestepped where possible.

Discrimination, many workplaces disriminate against British workers at point of potential recruitment.Favouring Eastern European workers who are seen as more subservient.

That poster has the gall to even mention holidays. Many cannot afford a real holiday.

Sickness rights? You will soon feel unwell again on return after daring to be ill.

48hr maximum? Sure, unless you're made to be 'manager' 'supervisor' on salary (low)

This is the minimum standard for workers and also the maximum, as new or improved conditions may be impossible to negotiate as the Unions are weaker and employers stronger.

If this is the best the EU has to offer.
It can stuff it.

Bollocks on the salary point I'm salaried and still signed onto working time directive.

an say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.

You do realise that sounds very similar to the chap who had a recent visit to the Old Bailey???

The generation who fought in WW2 were fighting for their mates, their families and for change to the "old order". Very few fought for "King and Country" - and they voted for social change as soon as they got home. The lack of "peace dividend" for Churchill in the post war election captured exactly the mood of the country.

Invoking false societal memories of a war that took place over 70 years ago is jingoistic and disingenuous

Your knowledge of Scottish politics is matched only by the state of Labour in Scotland

@gordimor Well I got the Scottish Referendum dead right. Good enough for me. IMO post a Brexit Scotland is less likely to vote for Independence, in any case we have a once in a lifetime chamce to vote Leave as did you.

Churchill has a vision of a United States of Europe in order to remove the Sovereignty of France and Germany so they stopped attacking each other. He had not the slightest intention of giving up our Sovereignty. For us a role in keeping the peace with the British army in Germany and a closer alliance with the US as it was the intervention of fhe Americans in WW2 which was key to us, he wanted to ensure we never again had to pusude the Americans to come to our aid, hence NATO

Bollocks on the salary point I'm salaried and still signed onto working time directive.

Great, that's the way it should be. Most are but many are not. It's mainly an example though of how easy it can be for employers to flout the law. It's commonplace.

Given that this referendum has far reaching consequences of much longer duration than a general election, I'm not actually sure that it's logical that the same people who vote in a general election should be able to vote. It would certainly make sense to me to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote. I also don't think it would be crazy to cap the vote for anyone retired or who will be retired within 2 years (the duration of expected negotiations resulting from leave).

No it does not make sense for 16/17 year olds to vote. Our voting age 18 and that makes perfect sense.

I can honestly say I've never noticed any change after an election..what changes have you noticed that directly impact you? Have you changed the way you live because of an election result?

Err.. yes? Probably the most obvious is that we were forced to move from Scotland to England as a direct result of the MTAS selection process in the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernising_Medical_Careers ]Modernising Medical Careers[/url] programme, that was implemented as part of the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Plan_2000 ]NHS Plan 2000[/url] when Blair came to power.

Given that this referendum has far reaching consequences of much longer duration than a general election, I'm not actually sure that it's logical that the same people who vote in a general election should be able to vote. It would certainly make sense to me to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote.

I think the 1.3 million British citizens who currently live elsewhere in Europe should have a say. They know more about Europe and free movement than most and potentially stand to lose more too.

Great, that's the way it should be. Most are but many are not. It's mainly an example though of how easy it can be for employers to flout the law. It's commonplace.

The UK has an opt-out on the 48 hours anyway.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1799518.stm ]Nearly four million people in the UK are working more than 48 hours a week as Britain ignores European limits, figures show.[/url]

jambalaya - Member

No it does not make sense for 16/17 year olds to vote. Our voting age 18 and that makes perfect sense

Really, you think that a voting age related to a 4-5 year cycle that has at most repercussions for 30-50 years and by and large much less, should be the same as a vote that will happen once and will have repercussions for potentially hundreds of years and certainly decades?

I see no logic in that whatsoever

No it does not make sense for 16/17 year olds to vote. Our voting age 18 and that makes perfect sense

It does make sense you just disagree

its odd we have folk voting who will die before any of this comes to pass and folk who will need to live through it with no say at all.
I am not generally in favour of lowering the voting age nor in having ex pats vote. However this special vote does massively affect them so I can see the sense in changing it for this vote

Not sure I am totally convinced though

The UK has an opt-out on the 48 hours anyway.

Nearly four million people in the UK are working more than 48 hours a week as Britain ignores European limits, figures show.

Yep. wheel2wheel's argument seems to be that because the UK has opted out of EU limits that benefit workers, the EU hasn't helped. So we should leave the EU so we can "take control" and opt into those limits on our own... 😕

Telegraph suggesting Ruth and Sadiq are the future of UK politics and BoJo is past it!

Two pro-remain types! The Telegraph! That pro-quitting paper.

I'm so surprised I can't remember which way to vote.

In other news the more extreme elements are at it again

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-against-her-children-over-eu-stance-a7094701.html ]http://www.independent.co.yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-against-her-children-over-eu-stance[/url]

Please think twice before labelling those who want to vote for what they see as a bright future for their children in a Britain that is part of a vibrant European community as traitors. It doesn't help the situation.

I am not generally in favour of lowering the voting age nor in having ex pats vote. However this special vote does massively affect them so I can see the sense in changing it for this vote

Yes, should have said I think voting eligibility fine for normal votes.

Also agree ex-pats should be able to vote, didn't realise they couldn't. That is highly illogical as realistically, I imagine, a leave vote would affect them as much if not more than UK residents.

I reckon they need a 10 point quiz adding to the voting paper. Facts about the EU.

Anyone who scores less than 80% has their vote discarded.

Will brexit be the final typically selfish and self-serving gift of the baby boomer generation to those that follow them?

It'd be appropriate

Survey on R4 this morning. Swedish asked two questions

Would you leave the EU if UK was a member - 39% Leave
Would you leave the EU if UK was not a member - 59% Leave

Italians are 50% for Leave

Marine Le Penn has pledged to hold a Referendum

Eurosceptism is very strong in Europe. He project is fundamentally flawed and irreparable

He had not the slightest intention of giving up our Sovereignty

SIGH....

We've been over this before...

Did you ask him?

Were you there?

Yes/No answer please.

Random question to people as I am still undecided about where to vote and Im struggling to find an answer anywhere.

Does anybody know the figure of what percentage of net migration settle in the South East year on year?
I moved out of London a couple of years ago back home to the Peak District and the one thing that strikes me is the fear culture people seem to have of migrants and foreigners even though there are non here! The same goes for small towns and villages in Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire where I have family.

My concern for migration is not of people coming to the UK itself as I believe it is a benefit to us, but of the consequences of mass migration concentrating on the one particular area and accentuating the North/South divide.

Has the EU/Gov ever drawn up (working) plans on how to manipulate market forces on immigration?

@grahamS

Yep. wheel2wheel's argument seems to be that because the UK has opted out of EU limits that benefit workers, the EU hasn't helped. So we should leave the EU so we can "take control" and opt into those limits on our own...

. . .don't be silly. That's not the case. You lose credibility when you are disingenuous.

All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.

Oh dear lord...

Sense of perspective up & left??

@pondo, the UK lead the way in most of those work rights - there have little to do with the EU. The main thing the EU did is the working time directive and even if France really only the government/civil service work those hours and Hollande is trying to reform that (with attendant riots)

Yep. wheel2wheel's argument seems to be that because the UK has opted out of EU limits that benefit workers, the EU hasn't helped. So we should leave the EU so we can "take control" and opt into those limits on our own...

Dunno, I'm not his/er spokesman, but I suspect that wheel2wheel's point is that being in the EU doesn't make one iota of difference to workers rights. It's certainly my point.

@monde - we don't have a figure and whilst the government has that information they won't say and Leave cannot ask. My gut feel is its heavily weighted to employment prospects which are better in the South East. I think they're is a North South divide issue being exacerbated as people form the Midlands/North are reluctant to move South for work which is being taken by immigrants prepared to travel and live very humbly. I do not think this is a healthy dynamic

So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for

[b]56/44 Leave[/b]

Has the EU/Gov ever drawn up (working) plans on how to manipulate market forces on immigration?

Yes, I believe there was a plan drawn up in Brussels a few years back. After years of deliberation a strategy was drawn up of where to place new immigrants to the U.K.
A map of the U.K. was produced and the whole map was filled in by a thick marker pen. They pointed to it and said 'that's where we will put them.'
That's pretty much it . . .

i have some thoughts on this that i would like to share. i consider these conflicted thoughts, i would rather vote remain but i am currently out.

There is a rising tide of far right sympathy and popular support for extreme right wing political parties in europe: switzerland, germany, holland, france and in a lot of the former east. a lot of eu power is centred around germany which is conservative and sees the new right stealing its votes like here in the UK where the tories fear UKIP and the like stealing their support. In addition, left wing parties in southern europe are being pitted against the centres of european political power because they are having debt measures forced on them to 'help' their economies, which means they are being forced to take on a pro-austerity political agenda. The idea that the eu is socially progressive is true and good in many cases which are listed in the thread but i worry for how long. in europe, british politics is a malign influence against what I would call the progressive agenda, we consisently, in terms of how we vote and how much money we agree to spend, are pro war, anti regulation, anti ecological/environmental measures, anti helping refugees. europe in this time of crisis, does not need us sending a right wing tory to war munger and petition against social justice.

. . .don't be silly. That's not the case. You lose credibility when you are disingenuous.

Then explain yourself more clearly.

You said of the Working Time Directive: [i]"Great, that's the way it should be"[/i] but that the fact some people aren't covered by it is [i]"an example though of how easy it can be for employers to flout the law."[/i]

Which sounds a lot like you approve of the EU directive, but are annoyed that the UK has an opt-out.

How would opting out of the EU entirely improve that?

Do you honestly believe that there are a raft of improvements to workers' rights which the Tory government is eager to implement that are currently being blocked by the EU?

The idea that the eu is socially progressive is true

I thought that might be the case but the more I look at it, and TTIP, I do not think that is the case.

Basically I am a tory voter, but after consideration thought that a socially progressive setup like the EU was the best thing for future generations, so therefore I should vote In.

I am going to vote In but I think the 'socially progressive' bit is just a complete fallacy, so I am just going for the status quo now.

[i]Which sounds a lot like you approve of the EU directive, but are annoyed that the UK has an opt-out. [/i]

IME its not just the UK that has opt-outs (to this and other policies) but other countries too, ie Netherlands.

The Far right in France hasn't gained any ground in the last few years. At the last regional election they gained zero seats.

Can't believe some people think that IDS, Gove and Boris are going to improve low paid workers conditions.

A map of the U.K. was produced and the whole map was filled in by a thick marker pen. They pointed to it and said 'that's where we will put them.'
That's pretty much it . . .

How does UK immigration compare to other EU countries?

And are you talking about normal EU Article 45 "Free movement of workers" or are you talking about refugees and asylum seekers?

I thought that might be the case but the more I look at it, and TTIP, I do not think that is the case.
Basically I am a tory voter,

The EU has effectively blocked TTIP (so far). If it was down to our government we'd have adopted it already.

The EU has effectively blocked TTIP (so far)

the member states of the EU have blocked it, but it was the EU that thought it was a good idea to come up with it and obviousl agreed with the ideas encapsulated in it.

So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for

56/44 Leave

So you think Leave will have 44%?

Strange! I had the impression you were an outer, so not confident then?

So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for

56/44 Leave

61/39 in win.

I moved out of London a couple of years ago back home to the Peak District and the one thing that strikes me is the fear culture people seem to have of migrants and foreigners even though there are non here!

So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for
56/44 Leave

@ grahamS

Then explain yourself more clearly.

It was clear enough.It was clear enough to Ernie_Lynch who i am in agreement with on this matter ,if he doesn't mind me saying. .

Do you honestly believe that there are a raft of improvements to workers' rights which the Tory government is eager to implement that are currently being blocked by the EU?

Is this really a serious question? Or an insult?

It's a rather pompous and patronising tired argument to assume those that will vote leave are trusting Johnson , Gove etc. to champion rights for the working class. That's silly but purposeful.
The argument is that EU employment law is a pretty weak incentive to stay in the EU, and for all the oft stated reasons, we want rid of the EU then take it from there.

Yes, I believe there was a plan drawn up in Brussels a few years back. After years of deliberation a strategy was drawn up of where to place new immigrants to the U.K.
A map of the U.K. was produced and the whole map was filled in by a thick marker pen. They pointed to it and said 'that's where we will put them.'
That's pretty much it . . .

Any proof to go with that conspiracy theory of yours?

Or is it just your opinion....

GrahamS - Member

The EU has effectively blocked TTIP (so far).

Why do people feel the need to lie ?

The EU hasn't "blocked" TTIP. TTIP is specifically a deal which the EU is actively negotiating with the US.

Although most of it is in secret here is the report from the European Commission of the 13th round of negotiations.

@ cchris2lou

Can't believe some people think that IDS, Gove and Boris are going to improve low paid workers conditions.

If you think people think that, then it's you that's not that bright.

the member states of the EU have blocked it, but it was the EU that thought it was a good idea to come up with it and obviousl agreed with the ideas encapsulated in it.

Governments have lots of silly ideas. It's whether they make it to the the books that counts.

If we were out of Europe we would have signed it already. Cameron is one of the main figures pushing for TTIP ratification in Europe.
For me the fact that it is being blocked and watered down is a good example of the EU working well.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/19/cameron-accepts-ttip-amendment-to-mollify-rebel-tory-mps
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/what-is-ttip-and-why-does-cameron-want-to-sign-the-biggest-trade-agreement-in-history-10247456.html

seosamh77 - Member

61/39 in win.

I'd go with that, think it will be less close than imagined when the undecided vote and some planned out voters get the heebie-jeebies about a totally unknown future

Any proof to go with that conspiracy theory of yours?
Or is it just your opinion...

The proof is in the pudding.

[i]@ cchris2lou

Can't believe some people think that IDS, Gove and Boris are going to improve low paid workers conditions.

[b]If you think people think that, then it's you that's not that bright. [/i][/b]

Are you serious? The UK has an appalling rate of inequality and child poverty considering the wealth we have in this country. The recent politicians have not made it much better to date...why are they going to be changing their personal agendas/priorities now? Or maybe the issue is how we are defining 'improve low paid workers'. I'm going to guess my definition is different to many others.

I am voting in one reason being to stop or fundamentally change TTIP. I reckon there is a better chance of this within the EU, not because the EU will oppose TTIP, but because some of the member states will. Our own tory government are very unlikely to oppose TTIP or a post Brexit equivalent.