[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

oh and I have yet to hear brexit say that the companies claiming to leave are talking crap, and that jobs won't be lost. That companies won't relocate to Europe etc. What happens to CAP subsidies? the EU funding for poorer regions in the UK, etc.

If the nightmare scenario of an EU full of "poor nations" and undemocratic management comes to pass, of course we could have another referendum to leave. No-one would have the stomach for it in 2 years, or probably even 5, but if the EU really changed for the worse and there was a substantial change in popular opinion, then of course it would be possible to get out in 10.

What we couldn't do so easily, is re-join for membership on our current privileged terms if we decided in a few years that leaving had been a mistake.

@mrmo CAP subsidies and funding for poor areas is jist giving us our own money back, less a £10bn haircut 😯

Yes we would need the government of the day Labour or Tory to continue those subsidies but I would argue that they could be better targetted, better suited to our economy or needs not a 38 euro nation hotch potch.

Yes there could be relocations but there are likley to be benefits by refocusing on Asia a high growth region instead of stagnating Europe. Plus of course we have the EU budget contributions to invest where we chose and/or reduce the deficit

of course we could have another referendum to leave.

If you listen to Paxman's documentary it speaks of how the EU is trying to do things these days without needing to go to Treaty change as Holland has compulosry referendums (as we do now) and they have a decentbdeeling they'd vote no. So they will find another way and won't ask.

Lies,

Damn lies,

&

EU facts

🙄

Mrmo, don't be taken in be Brexit BS and scaremongering on immigration...

. Lifer - Member 
jambalaya - Member
mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here.

With all these people making big bucks and our ability to select them why do non-EU migrants contribute less than EU migrants?#

Quite.

EU immigrants contribute more than non-EU immigrants.

They tend to be younger and healthier and generally go home for medical services.

From this the xenophobic reaction is to blame them for the ills of the NHS (bad joke I know) etc. As we know from the failure to control non-EU immigrants, the solution proposed by the xenophobes is no panacea either since this is what we use to control (sic) non-EU immigration. They do make it up. Shameful xenophobia.

I'm IN

Kryton - yes we can survive in or out, that is not really the question. The key issue if what is the better type of relationship to have with some of our largest economic partners. One that faciltates trade and economic activity based on co-operation but without the less desirable aspects of the Euro project. Or one that complicates it, prefers them and us attitude and xenophobia and goes against the long history of misguided isolationism and protectionism.

It really isn't very complicated. Hence the need for Brexit BS to misguide the ill-informed.

long history of misguided isolationism and protectionism.

In order that I may understand your point could you please explain the long history of misguided isolationism and protectionism, thanks.

How many people voted Tory in the last election? 27%... so no you can't vote them out.

Well you can say it but its not true. The fact that people choose not to vote doesnt detract from the fact that it is democratic.

No, I am arguing that if the current shower of ***** are incapable of negotiating in Europe then what hope for them negotiating outside of Europe?

Surely you can see the problem with that argument? Trying to gain agreement within the EU whilst in it is one thing. It is a different matter if those things dont apply to you!

ty of the future, its just not possible...

Ever closer union, ever expanding eu via ever poorer nations, continuing stagnation of over regulated eu countries, increasingly cumbersome and undemocratic management, over leveraged eu countries going bankrupt, never being asked again what we think via a referendum

So why did you post future examples as an argument? If I cant vote on a "future" your entire paragraph needs to be omitted as all the examples are your perception of the future.

THM well I'd agree with your first example, which supports this Nirvana of trade relationships - Remain or Leave? Genuine question btw...

That's one scenario, in my view it's the future with 100% certainty. You may think differently.

Krypton, not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if I am remain or leave or if he first example is remain or leave?

It really isn't very complicated. Hence the need for Brexit BS to misguide the ill-informed.

On the contrary, it's very simple and objective. People try to make it complicated in order to misguide. Most of the content of the debate is irrelvant side issues, false accusations/causations and xenophobia.

How do you want to interact with the region that is home to some of our biggest economic partners?

There has been some good discussion from both sides on this thread which is great to see, but am I the only one who is appalled at the ignorance of the general public on the issue?

I wasn't sure which way I was going to vote and after a large amount of research I'm 100% remain, but I'm happy that other people have different understanding of the issues and might vote the other way. But it really **** me off that members of the public can vote on the basis that "I bet farage is a good laugh in the pub" or "I don't like the idea of the Syrian migrants landing on our shores, so I'm voting out" I mean - really??!

There should be a voting qualification test before you're allowed to vote, answer 5 simple questions about the issue, get 80% correct and congratulations, you're eligible to vote.

That's one scenario, in my view it's the future with 100% certainty. You may think differently.

Even you can't predict the future. You asked me not to base my desicion on the future which I can't control, yet now you tell me you can predict the future 100%.

THM - if your first example represents Remain or Leave.

Pob on Sky News @ 20:00 !

There should be a voting qualification test before you're allowed to vote

No, it shouldn't be a referendum in the first place.

There should be a voting qualification test before you're allowed to vote, answer 5 simple questions about the issue, get 80% correct and congratulations, you're eligible

I agree, always the danger of abstainance is to let the great uneducated vote for our future on such a basis as you describe. It's why I'm making an effort despite being overtly politics-shy.

[quote=Neb ]
There should be a voting qualification test before you're allowed to vote, answer 5 simple questions about the issue, get 80% correct and congratulations, you're eligible to vote.

What would be your approach to selecting people for Jury service ?

There should be a voting qualification test before you're allowed to vote, answer 5 simple questions about the issue, get 80% correct and congratulations, you're eligible to vote.

That would disqualify Bojo, Gove and IDS immediately. Just look at the VL website.

Kryton - remain (I hope obviously!!). It beggars belief that we would jeopardise a situation where we enjoy many of advantages of the European Union while avoiding many of the disadvantages. The UK has played it well so far with a few close shaves - well done Gordi. Whether this is by luck or judgement is another matter.

People try to make it complicated in order to misguide

Something both sides are guilty of..

In the BS league table Remain is miles ahead, or should I say kilometers

Cobblers....it's pretty equal!

Both sides are guilty of telling WHOPPERS.......& if you can't admit that then you're just adding another one to the list..

The bottom line is it will boil down to which set of lies & liars are the most palatable, and whether you want to be part of a largely faceless & uncountable organisation. Or do you wish to go it alone adopting a potentially isolationist stance in a largely very uncertain economical & financial global environment.

You pays your money....

See you all on the 23rd!

What would be your approach to selecting people for Jury service ?

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Not sure if this link has been posted already (not been keeping apace with the debate on here). Some proper factual info on some of the (many) myths WRT the UKs EU membership

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

Or do you wish to [s]go it alone adopting a potentially isolationist stance[/s] take your time and forge new alliances in a largely very uncertain economical & financial global environment.

You pays your money....

No wealthy country would join the EU today, none. If it was so great how come Norway or Switzerland has never signed up to the whole shabang ?

I might also be a little biased, but the Brexit campaign seems to be the lazy option. Those that have done their research or are actively interested in politic/economics tend toward the remain side.

"them bloody foreigners" almost seems to the default answer and it takes a bit of thinking to get past it...

What would be your approach to selecting people for Jury service ?

"I bet farage is a good laugh in the pub" or "I don't like the idea of the Syrian migrants landing on our shores, so I'm voting out" I mean - really??!

My brother said he's voting out because he wants to ensure his 3 year old daughter is safe from terrorists 🙄

FIFY
No wealthy country would join the EU today, none. If it was so great how come Norway or Switzerland has never signed up to the whole shabang ?

Which has taken them how long to get to that stage? 20 years? 30 years? No, over 40 I think.....plus they still pay into the EU BUT have NO say.....both sides of the story Jamba.

The utopian future you choose to describe is a very, VERY long way off.....tell the folks back home that side of the coin too..

A touch of honesty goes a long way!

Both sides are guilty of telling WHOPPERS.......& if you can't admit that then you're just adding another one to the list..

the problem is that remains lies are to exaggerate/overstate the doom/economic fear and brexit are to blame everything on the EU and, have rampant right wing tories, say everything from the NHS to workers rights will be saved if we leave.

The former lies are at least just overstated the later are just old fashioned porkies.

Sky for the first personal political broadcast for a hopeful next leader of the Tory party

Started badly!! Continued even worse (so far)

No wealthy country would join the EU today, none. If it was so great how come Norway or Switzerland has never signed up to the whole shabang

More pertinent question are
1. Why are they in the EEA - makes economic sense
2. how much access do they get to the shabang without paying? NIL
3. DO they have to harmonise - YES
4, DId switzerland manage to negotiate free movement- NO

To save me repeating these ad nauseum shall we just assume you will claim to have answered them already after pages of ignoring them ?

Your claims of what we will get afterwards are fanciful in the extreme

Gove "yes the money {350m) is sent"

A BLATANT LIE

No wealthy country would join the EU today, none. If it was so great how come Norway or Switzerland has never signed up to the whole shabang ?

Not now they wouldn't, the terms aren't the same and they wouldn't get the same say on things that we enjoy. The question is more why would a wealthy country in the position of the UK even think of leaving the EU? I'm certain Switzerland would swap with us in a heartbeat. But then they've got the hindsight of being in our position, choosing to leave and suffering a massive recession for 10yrs and begging back in with a much worse deal. They still have freedom of movement, still have the EU standards imposed and still pay €250m a year for no say in any of it!

Is Gove actually going to get a couple of words in without being shouted over?

I also wonder why people continue to believe Farage. In his job as MEP he is ranked 746 out of 750 in performance. I'm assuming that's based on time spent, involvement, discussion, etc.

So in his job, he is incompetent or at best, not interested. Why do people still think he knows what he's talking about?

It's like taking advice on which stocks to invest in from a stockbroker you know to be crap.

Hilarious to watch Gove attacking JPM and GS!

amazing to see him being stuffed so far...

perhaps he will do better when the public gets involved. He is attacking Faisal which shows that he is really rattled

[quote=teamhurtmore ]
amazing to see him being stuffed so far...

Must be watching a different programme to me THM 🙂

Frankly, that was appalling. I just wanted to switch off. Not a grown up programme, just a point scoring exercise by the so called interviewer. I didn't hear anything!

Gove's performance was far stronger than Cameron's yesterday. One interesting pointer from yesterday was how hostile the audience was to Cameon personally (chosen to be 1/3 remain, leave, undecided). We shall see how Gove fares.

@MrLeb - you are ignoring the huge vested interests from the political organisations like the IMF, OECD etc. We understand that the UK being in the EU is better for them.

Jambas his biggest achievement so far is to perpetuate a lie. If that is success you guys are deluded. but if fits with the campaign - BLATANT LIE

TMH you see Gove answer that question on the £350m exactky as I do, we pay the money and we cannot rely on the rebate - its not written into the Treaty.

Also Gove making the same point about discriminatory immigration policy that is the EU and oitside we could have a non-racist policy to open access to the rest of the world and those countries who we have strong historical ties

Well he's now qualified that 'lie' THM, so let's move on!

True Faisal should have shut up - let Gove condemn himself. He was doing his best. His very best.

Jambas - you know very well we dont send that sum of money despite what your website, bus and literature state. If you want to perpetuate the same lie, then that is a shame. You decide...

Gove made his decision live on TV - he was very clear. So we know how much he values the truth. I hope that you value it more.