[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

EU is incompetent, it is the debacle that is Schengen which has put Germany into the mess its in. Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians the other Schengen countries would ignore the regulations .....
Its a very great example of EU Incompetence

Your arguments would work much better if you did not negate them yourself

@ernie by the way I posted the link to the sex assault story.....

And I posted my accusation of petty racism about 4 hours ago, since then you have posted several times, but you've only just managed to dream up some cock and bull story in to explain your barrel-scraping petty racism?

I don't think your schoolboy excuses really wash. At the end of the day you're saying the same thing : "vote to leave the EU otherwise dark-skinned foreigners will rape your daughters". Because the EU is so incompetent apparently.

Well, given the fact that the notoriously racist and intolerant Dalai Lama is now saying that [url= http://www.thelocal.de/20160531/dalai-lama-says-too-many-refugees-in-europe ]Europe is taking too many refugees[/url] then you must have a point Ernie.

@ernie by the way I posted the link to the sex assault story as an example of how the EU is incompetent, it is the debacle that is Schengen which has put Germany into the mess its in. Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians who arrived there legally.

The EU failing would have been to strictly adhere to the first country you arrived in rules and dump the entire problem on the South and stick 2 fingers up to them. The EU lets the load be shared, share the pain share the gain - I know this is opposed to the Brexit message of All the Gain none of the Pain (like the magic diet pills that say you can eat cake drink beer do nothing and look like a model)

As a large number of the refugees are coming from the middle east take a look at the nations who participated in the **** up that was the invasions and subsequent military action. Those nations should be stumping up to deal with the aftermath more than those who happen to be closer. If you want an example of failing EU it's the likes of the UK pushing for the first country registration - their problem approach to refugees. And lets remember refugees are completely separate to the debate on EU migration.

I am also very happy via controlled immigration to welcome people of all faiths or none at all

And on the Dali Lama

The Dalai Lama added that "from a moral point of view too, I think that the refugees should only be admitted temporarily".

"The goal should be that they return and help rebuild their countries."

chewy: Just Vote OUT for happiness.

You do realise, chewy, that if we white folk vote "OUT", you will be OUT yourself, on a boat back home?

Merkel thought she was so smart to offer asylum to all Syrians who arrived there legally.

I wonder what it is like seeing the world through your eyes. Merkel saw desperate people with nowhere to go and, probably mindful of Germany's historic guilt, she held out a hand to help them when nobody else would. To see that in a negative light is the view of a perverted mind, the sort that would see eating a bacon sandwich as a public display of antisemitism. I feel sorry for you. Sometimes.

ninfan - Member

Well, given the fact that the notoriously racist and intolerant Dalai Lama is now saying that Europe is taking too many refugees then you must have a point Ernie.

jambalaya doesn't make that claim with "the link to the sex assault story", as he calls it.

So provide me with a link in which the notoriously racist and intolerant Dalai Lama is saying that if the UK doesn't leave the EU Muslim men will rape European girls, smartarse.

Good rebut all of that Brexit movie, by a Swiss unhappy the way his country was used as an example, when the truth was quite different

He's irritated that the film portrays his country as such a great success story outside the EU-when the Swiss buy into the Single Market, its rules, and have a Freedom of Movement arrangement with the EU. In fact, Switzerland had a long recession in the early 1990's when they rejected, by referendum, EEA membership. After years of pain, they took up a freedom of movement arrangement with the EU, joined the Single Market and have done much better since. H

The media have been focussing on this 'can the Tory party reunite after the referendum, but I think one thing thats been quite enlightening about the 'debate' (such as it is) that, on a personal level, its certainly flushed out peoples real opinions.

I've found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who've suddenly gone all EDL on social media, and have started posting up lots of Britain First nonsense, and quoting the Daily Mail.

"I do have to smile at those who" suggest that our attitutde towards the refugees crisis should fill us with pride rather than shame 😯

I do have to smile at those here who suggest we avoided the worst, eg euro and Schengen, if you can't get currency and security (border control) right I have little faith in competancy in any other areas.

So some more simple question requiring nothing more than one word answers - here's hoping:

1. Have we avoided them (ie, the euro,Schengen)? Yes or no?
2. Have we, with control, entered into currency arrangements that were flawed by design and execution and that harmed our economy? (Ask two of your front men about their experiences!) Yes or no?
3. Does the UK with its added security still have problems with control over its borders? Yes or no?
4. Has the net non EU migration exceeded government targets despite the use of a points based system.Yes or no?

By your own standards you are condemning the very alternative that you seek. An odd debating approach IMO. Given our own home grown incompetence in the critical areas that you define, it's a good job we don't have an army, eh?

The world is not black and white, either/or.....it's messy and flawed like the individuals who populate it. So it is only honest to look at the EU and recognise the benefits and the weaknesses of the system before commenting on what our position should be. On balance it is difficult to argue (hence the lack of sensible answers) that we have not minimised the weaknesses and maximised the strengths of the EU in relation to the other parties involved. Whether that is by design or accident that is another matter. But to jeopardise such a strong position in favour of poorly thought through (if thought through at all) alternatives is a folly of staggering magnitude.

8 hours and no rebuttal or refutation of the points made in Ernies two links.

I've found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who've suddenly gone all EDL on social media, and have started posting up lots of Britain First nonsense, and quoting the Daily Mail

I am surprised you keep such company Binners !! 😉

THM. Nail. Head.

Thanks for those links Ernie, nothing I hadn't considered albeit over some time. My main critcism would be "what next?" In order to deal with the issues raised you would need a left government which seems a long way away right now.

But yeah, far more agreeable when you tackle problems rather than symptoms (real or imagined).

I've found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who've suddenly gone all EDL on social media

Like I said a couple of pages back, it's now ok to be racist again. It's depressing to have my long held view confirmed that racism in this country was very far from being defeated. It would appear it's merely been surpressed, and now the cork is out the bottle and we're seeing the real situation. Irrespective of the referendum result, it's going to take a long time to get back to the situation we thought we were at.

TMH you subbornly miss the point on here (but I strongly suspect not offline) that whether we are in the euro or Schengen we are absolutley impacted by them. Both are central to the whole EU project and both have been an unmitigated disaster and absolitely indicative of the incompetance and dysfunctionality of the EU.

We will be required to particpated (no choice) in the Greek bailout and propiing up "the system" when Italy and Spain teeter and we will ne negatively impacted as the EU slides further into recession as a result of that and the generally turgid EU responce to the 2007-8 crises. It matters very little whether we are in the euro. Its like be married to a drug addict, ot doesn't matter that younare clean you are still heavily impacted

We are fortunate as an Island to the West of Europe to have many countries between us and the soirces of the migrant problems however with no border controls and no willingness to cinfront illegal migrants the problem arrives on our doorstep. Schengen is largely responsible for this fiasco as migrants well know and understand how it doesn't work

We are independently the second largest donor after the US to support Syrian refugees but we still get caught up in EU incompetance as part of the €9bn Turkey has been promised as part of the migrant deal (which Amnesty International says is illegal btw)

@ernie lets be very clear here. Controlled immigration will favour migrants from ****stan, Bangladesh and all other non-EU countires. The current system works against them.

@ernie lets be very clear here. Controlled immigration will favour migrants from ****stan, Bangladesh and all other non-EU countires.

Not really. When kicking out the Poles and Romanians doesn't solve the problems in housing, the NHS etc, attention will turn to the darkies. That's what happens when you incite racism - the genie doesn't go back in the bottle.

found it quite surprising the amount of people who I previously thought were ok human beings, who've suddenly gone all EDL on social media

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make for 3 years on here. If you don't take firm and early action to deal with a problem it's solution become only more difficult. [b]If going "EDL" is the only solution on offer then thats the way people will react as they are given no other option[/b]. They have seen rhetoic from mainstream parties and no effective action just a deteriorating situation. There is a seismic shift to the right accross Europe as this issue has not been dealt with previously, we've seen it in Framce where previously far-left councils are now Front-National. As the ex-MI6 head says if people in Europe do not see effective action from their leadership there will be a reaction and he can already see it building.

Do not forget the poll is Austria was 50.3 vs 40.7 with the mainstream parties eliminated. France's 2017 Presidial election is going to be UMP vs FN and Merkel looks increasingly weak ahead of 2017 with many believing she should not seek re-election.

The left,,centre and moderate rigt of European politics have failed in dealing with these key issues and the electorate are going to have their say against a worsening migrant crises and an ever weaker economy.

the electorate are going to have their say against a worsening migrant crises and an ever weaker economy.

Conflating these issues is just dishonest racism.

TMH you subbornly miss the point on here (but I strongly suspect not offline) that whether we are in the euro or Schengen we are absolutley impacted by them.

No I don't. In or Out, we are affected by them indirectly, true. That is different to the direct impact and to the nature of our desired relationship with the area. It is the latter that we should be/are debating.

We will be required to particpated (no choice) in the Greek bailout and propiing up "the system" when Italy and Spain teeter and we will ne negatively impacted as the EU slides further into recession as a result of that and the generally turgid EU responce to the 2007-8 crises.

We both know the reality of the EFSM and the fact that legally this is confined to EZ members. That was clarified last year. We also know that our previous support was colateralised and paid back. SCAREMONGERING.

It matters very little whether we are in the euro. Its like be married to a drug addict, ot doesn't matter that younare clean you are still heavily impacted

On the contrary, it matters a lot. Just look at the relative performance of the UK v RoEurope since the crisis.

We are fortunate as an Island to the West of Europe to have many countries between us and the soirces of the migrant problems however with no border controls and no willingness to cinfront illegal migrants the problem arrives on our doorstep. Schengen is largely responsible for this fiasco as migrants well know and understand how it doesn't work

BS. Go to Lesbos and ask the pathetic figures being rescued from leaking boats and who have endured appalling suffering how much they understand about the ins and outs of Schengen.

We are independently the second largest donor after the US to support Syrian refugees but we still get caught up in EU incompetance as part of the €9bn Turkey has been promised as part of the migrant deal (which Amnesty International says is illegal btw)

We have done the bare minimum. That does not make me proud. On the contrary...

@ernie lets be very clear here. Controlled immigration will favour migrants from ****stan, Bangladesh and all other non-EU countires. The current system works against them.

in response to the facts that EU migrants contribute more than they take out, you refer to enlargement to poorer countries and that this is a problem. Compare their GDP per cappita etc with ****stan and Bangladesh and revert at your leisure.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make for 3 years on here.

So if I've got this right, if we don't pander to the racists and give them what they want, then it's our fault that they exist? Is that it? 😕

Conflating these issues is just dishonest racism.

DrJ if I may say so you have your head so deep in the sand it's frightening. You are refusing to acknowledge a real issue people are gravely concerned about. Calling them racists isn't going to work. surely you can see that over the last 3 years. Why don't you go over to Austria with your accusations of racism. I have posted before about the number ofmeople who come to vote Leave stalls who are deeply offended to have been called racists when all theynare concerned about is the idiocy of uncontrolled freedom of movement between countries of hugely differing economic success.

Politics generally shifts to the right in terms of economic stress and Europe stands on the edge of an even deeper recession than we saw in 2008-10.

We and especially the EU have failed to deal with a legitimate concern of the people and we are seeing the consequences. I don't want to see far right governments in Europe, its terriying but thats whats coming. The EU referendum could well be won for Leave on this issue and the Remainers will only have themselves to blame for failing to engage properly and simply insulting people by calling them racist.

EU freedom of movement is a discriminatory policy working against the rest of the world be they Asians, Africans and Latin Americans. This and its uncontrollable.

willburt, you are still waiting for the three points in favour of OUT (although EL's link is admittedly of interest). So let's look at the offical line becasue very helpfully they have set out their case on one PPT slide. Its not three points but here we go.

The first point is normally the most important so lets see...

The PMs deal leaves the EU in charge of the same things after his negotiation as before

Factually incorrect, but there is a valid point that Dave is guilty of overselling the nature of the negotiations and the result. But, and its an important but, the UK's position on key areas of relevant concern (€, Schengen etc) were clarified and I have posted the documents three times above. Not exactly a KO killer first blow. Perhaps it gets better?

Its not legally binding - the EC can tear it up after the referendum

Be serious. Nothing more to add, it doesn't.

So far, so bad, lets get on to the real meat of the argument

This is dangerous [no really]. WE will keep spending at least £350m a week abroad

A blatant lie

Immigration will continue out of control putting public services like the NHS under strain

So here we go incite xenophobia and racism and link it to the national treasure that is the NHS. No evidence to support this historically or suggest that the link is valid. The NHS has real problems but immigration is not the root casue. Brexit BS at its best

The EC will be in charge of our borders, immigration, asylum and even our intelligence services

Not true

Is we Vote Leave, we will take back control and can spend money on our priorities

Not true. Leaving aside the control that we already have, we still have to give up many of the current aspects that VL are concerned about as part of the future negotiations. You saw the NL response to points idea yesterday.

We already spend money on our priorities. We also get to vote on parties depending on their different (perceived or otherwise) priorities at the GE ("Control"}

So silliness, blatant lies and xenophobia. The choice is yours....

I can't wait for the bit of the campaign were the rest of Europe is advised to be super nice to the UK to help us stay in (like the Scotland referendum). I was hoping that a whole load of freebies would come our way, wine and cheese from France, Sausage and cars from Germany, free holidays Spain, plumbers from Poland, more cars and wine from Italy, Vodka from Finland and control of our fishing rights from the EU commission.

This morning BS form one side was "we'll lose our rights to holiday pay". Both sides really talking utter rubbish most of the time. I really would like to hear some of the discussion from left, middle and right why they want to stay or leave. Am sick of hearing the "facts" from either side, though I do blaim sections of the media for this as they seem intent on the personalities not what I suspect are at times intelligent views either way. Just sometimes we really do miss Tony Benn, Roy Jenkins, Ted heath, types who'd debate these issues in an intelligent way and explain why and for what reason. Perhaps I'm not really tuned into the sound bite fear culture.

Corbyn. Blimey these are some interesting comments from a Remain campaigner (at least publocally so anyway)

Osboune's economic statements are "histrionics" (agreed)

We cannot control immigration (agreed)

The TTIP is a bad deal and he would withdraw from it if in government (imo not possible if its an EU trade treaty without withdrawing from the EU)

EDIT: "None of us are satisfied with the EU as it is" (agreed) what JC is ignoring is its going to change furher and we will be even more disatisfied

Whilst I'm still an undecided voter I can't see how free migration within Europe, leading to a brain drain in the East so they can pick our cabbages in the West, can be considered a good thing?

Yes, some money may flow towards the East but what about helping to actually to develop nations so that they can be on an equal standing to those in the West, rather than just be a supplier of cheap labour?

legitimate concern of the people

What is this legitimate concern? All I hear is rubbish about foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs, filling our schools and monopolising our hospitals. That's not legitimate, it's ill-informed and ignorant bollox. As an anecdotal piece of evidence on this, Mrs Daz recently did a night-shift on a hospital dementia ward, she said every one working there aside from herself was an immigrant (mostly non-EU), and that they were operating with minimal staff because they couldn't fill the posts. These jobs apparently require no special qualifications as everyone is trained on the job, so if the local population who feel so under threat by immigrants wanted these jobs, they could have them very easily, but they don't. So if this is a typical situation across the country (and evidence suggests it is), how can you claim that concerns about immigration are legitimate? Seems to me the only legitimate concern about immigration is that there might not be enough of it.

I have posted before about the number ofmeople who come to vote Leave stalls who are deeply offended to have been called racists when all theynare concerned about is the idiocy of uncontrolled freedom of movement between countries of hugely differing economic success.

If people don't like being called racists they should stop being racists. There are many problems confronting our country that people have a right to be concerned about, but to elevate immigration to Number One, and to vote on that issue in a way that impacts us forever, is pure ... racism.

I can't see how free migration within Europe, leading to a brain drain in the East so they can pick our cabbages in the West, can be considered a good thing?

Why all the [i]racist[/i] taunts? Ethnic europeans (or however you phrase it) are all the same race.

Being part of the EU mandates a racist immigration policy.

dazh - Member

"This is exactly the point I have been trying to make for 3 years on here"

So if I've got this right, if we don't pander to the racists and give them what they want, then it's our fault that they exist? Is that it?

Net annual immigration of 300,000 people is a lot of people, who all need somewhere to live, water to drink, schools, etc. etc.

it's not in itself a problem, think of all the construction and engineering jobs that would be, in fact *are* needed to keep up.

but the fact is that successive governments have done naff all, we're not building enough houses, water treatment works, power generation, etc.

'The Market' has also failed to deliver. 'The Market' appears to be doing everything it can to throttle supply, to push up profits. What do we need? a million new houses, what do house-building companies do? buy up land banks, and then sit on them.

planning and building on the scale that's needed will take 20 years. So right now, we need to be planning and building the infrastructure to cope with an extra 10million people.

we aren't.

this head-in-the-sand strategy from Westminster has been a gift to racist groups.

i'm not suggesting we should pander to the racists, i'm suggesting our politicians have utterly failed to address a very real problem.

Dazh - Ahh bless.

So you don't think there is in anyway an issue with Western countries draining those in the East of their best and brightest to do jobs that many in the West deem beneath them?

As a Socialist I can see problems with this, especially if we ever want to curb the rise of right wing nationalism, carried on the back of rhetoric that accuses Eastern countries of "living off handouts from the West" etc.

Many in the West are happy to encourage more Eastern Europeans to come to our shores, as long as it means cheap produce in the supermarkets.

I await your 'witty' YouTube clip.

Yes, some money may flow towards the East but what about helping to actually to develop nations so that they can be on an equal standing to those in the West, rather than just be a supplier of cheap labour?

this head-in-the-sand strategy from Westminster has been a gift to racist groups

Perhaps so - but that isn't an excuse for normal human beings to adopt racist attitudes and policies.

I'm in - Voted this morning.

Net migration is 360+k in the past year, but fully %55 of this came from outside the EU...of that 45% from EU migration and given that UK unemployment is at ~5%, what additional strain do those few claiming benefits really create?

The Conservatives are IN power, they have the power to slash migration outside of those from the EU, but they haven't...The Conservatives pledged to reduce migration in each of their last manifestos, despite knowing full well that EU law prohibited them from doing so on a substantial percentage of that NET Figure. Does ANYONE seriously believe it'll change once we're OUT of the EU., it hasn't so far. All it'll do is increase paperwork for both both sides.

Also, How does Boris and his cronies plan to deal with the other ~200k people that came here from outside the EU, are we going to close our border?

if the local population who feel so under threat by immigrants wanted these jobs, they could have them very easily, but they don't.

So you're saying that the the answer to immigration is cuts in out of work benefits for British people?

I know, we should set up some sort of co-operative union of European countries to co-ordinate and manage that kind of thing. Any ideas on a name?

Well done Pondo, you almost made a funny.

If you truly think that the EU is set up as some Socialist utopia to bring parity among member states then I have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

For all the politicing that has gone on within the EU, who still benefits the most? Western European states. Who is at the mercy of decisions made by those countries? Southern and Eastern European states.

As I said earlier, I'm still an undecided voter, but I'm finding it more and more difficult to ally the realities of the EU (rather than the, at best optimistic dreams) with my Socialist principles.

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-poll-facebook-leave-remain_uk_574c6586e4b03e9b9ed5f7ae ]This is pretty much the perfect analogy to describe the Leave camp[/url]

[i]I know there are problems with the EU but can anyone properly explain what our plan is if we leave?

We have all been on a night out with that mate who when you are in a club says "it's shit here" let's go somewhere else. Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go and the place you left won't let you back in. Without a decent follow up plan a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about who's fault it is.[/i]

😆

As a Socialist I can see problems with this, especially if we ever want to curb the rise of right wing nationalism, carried on the back of rhetoric that accuses Eastern countries of "living off handouts from the West" etc.

As a socialist I thought you would recognise the need for wealth to be distributed from the rich to the poor in order that the whole of society can be more equitable. Is the solution to a professor or doctor in Albania coming here to work as a barista to build a higher wall, or to improve the economy of Albania so that there's no need for them to leave?

As a socialist I thought you would recognise the need for wealth to be distributed from the rich to the poor in order that the whole of society can be more equitable. Is the solution to a professor or doctor in Albania coming here to work as a barista to build a higher wall, or to improve the economy of Albania so that there's no need for them to leave?

A Professor or Doctor from Albania coming to the UK to work as a barista does little to help improve the economy of Albania. It makes such states subservient and dependant upon states who can afford to employ such learned folk in menial roles.

Well done Pondo, you almost made a funny.

If you truly think that the EU is set up as some Socialist utopia to bring parity among member states then I have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

For all the politicing that has gone on within the EU, who still benefits the most? Western European states. Who is at the mercy of decisions made by those countries? Southern and Eastern European states.

So you're saying that the the answer to immigration is cuts in out of work benefits for British people?

I don't know. Maybe it is? And I say that through gritted teeth. It would seem to me though that there is a bigger problem with the native population not taking up the work that is available, than immigrants coming here to do that work. Whatever the reasons are for that, and I'm sure that it's much more complex than simply over-generous benefits, that are the major problem which needs to be solved. Quite frankly if immigration were reduced, the NHS, local authority services, and other vital industries (not just the baristas) would collapse without immigration. Yet the Leave campaign say the opposite?

Anyone who says benefits are over-generous has never needed them to live and/or watches too much Channel 5 ragebait.

Single person benefit =under 25 57.90
25 or over 73.10

Maximum housing - you now have to share a house if under 35 - this can impact on your ability to see your kids and have them over night - Shared room rate £53.67

That is weekly you also have to pay [ reduced rate] council tax out of that and its unlikely the local rate will actually cover your rent

SO essentially £50 ish to life off for everything you need.

Is the solution to a professor or doctor in Albania coming here to work as a barista to build a higher wall, or to improve the economy of Albania so that there's no need for them to leave?

It would seem to me though that there is a bigger problem with the native population not taking up the work that is available, than immigrants coming here to do that work. Whatever the reasons are for that, and I'm sure that it's much more complex than simply over-generous benefits, that are the major problem which needs to be solved.

1. A large proportion of the long term unemployed are at the very bottom of the bell shaped curve of intelligence. They are essentially unemployable. they are not bad people they are not lazy. I used to work with folk who had to have paper with their address written down, who could not count to four and could not tell the time

This myth that they are all lazy is just that.
TBH they are closer to needing a support worker than they are ready for employment.

2. Many employer like the eastern Europeans because they are less worried abut their employment rights Locally a number of employers have mandatory overtime and you never know when you will leave when you start work - you cannot do this if you have kids but you can do this if you just came here to work

Not protecting our most vulnerable and least able is not a solution unless you wish to return to 18 th century standards of welfare.

Interesting points junky - because you could argue strongly (and most of the unions previously did) that the availability of an (almost) endless supply of people willing (and able due to lack of family ties, responsibilities etc) to work for minimum wage means that things will never improve while we have freedom of movement, it's a constant race to the bottom - and as pointed out, the brain drain prevents the poorer nations ever advancing.

Good read here, if rather depressing

http://washingtonspectator.org/cameron-folly-eu-uk/

It is a grim future. And thanks to David Cameron’s ****less decision-making it may be here this month.