the IMF/OECD/Osbourne said the negatives/recession would appear immediately – they had graphs and everything

Yep – and is I recall we DID see some pretty big negatives appearing immediately and it only stabilised (to a new lower growth rate) when Mark Carney stepped up with £250 billion that he found down the back of the sofa, and people began to realise that nothing was actually going to happen for at least a couple of years.

Remainers (or more accurately Re-Moaners)

I prefer “Remaniacs” – it has a much nicer hyperbole to it.

real benefits will take sometime to show

Does anyone know what these might be yet?

So far all I got is less dollars for my pound to spend on my hols and people saying “it’s not as bad as they told us” even though article 50 has not even been activated.

I will admit – I told you so – is not a good look

@crank we have the sovereign power to pick our exit date, we’ll be gone by 2019

You don’t really believe all that’s stopping Johnie foreigner from stuffing each other in ovens again is our stiff upper lip do you?

Do you really believe that’s at all likely to be what I believe?

Or are you simply using absurd hyperbole instead of actual arguments?

From my 2 weeks in Majorca we’ve driven on beautiful road surfaces ,seen no litter , been stopped by cops so that children could cross the road ,had fantastic free treatment in a hospital and only had to pay to park once.
What is so **** wonderful about the uk ? When we told the lady in the hospital that we wouldn’t just be able to wander into a health centre and get stitches removed she looked like we were from a 3rd world country.

Yes mainland spain is just like this, hang on, no, it isn’t. Our country is not in a shit state all places have their issues but the UK is not shit by any stretch.

Do you really believe that’s at all likely to be what I believe?

Or are you simply using absurd hyperbole instead of actual arguments?
I’m taking the piss rather than arguing. 🙂

But really… we leave and ww3 breaks out. 😆
Get a grip.

But really… we leave and ww3 breaks out.
Get a grip.

That was never anyone’s sensible argument.

Point is that the EU helps European stability. If it were to fail, war would be more likely in the long term than if it didn’t.

I will admit – I told you so – is not a good look

Not when it’s far too early to draw conclusions it’s not, no. You really think everything is all sorted?

there have been some benefits to Brexit

Michael Gove has fallen down a dark hole

Osborne is utterly discredited and Cameron has been consigned to history as one of the worlds biggest losers, forcing him to resign in disgrace

real benefits will take sometime to show

yeah the NHS really could do with that 350bn

Point is that the EU helps European stability. If it were to fail, war would be more likely in the long term than if it didn’t.

Nah. The days of europeans fighting each other are over. The EU may have helped lead to that (but I doubt our inclusion made any odds), but the world has moved on.

The days of europeans fighting each other are over.

What makes you say that?

Jamba. Might I point you to the mash to explain why concluding everything will be fine with Brexit is, for the moment, a load of tosh

Lack of ‘Brexit effects’ proves Brexit hasn’t happened yet

TL:DR You can’t draw that conclusion cause it hasn’t happened yet!

What makes you say that?

Same thing I don’t worry about Scottish raiders attacking Yorkshire. We’ve moved on.

The days of europeans fighting each other are over. The EU may have helped lead to that

I believe that was one of the founding reasons for setting up the Council of Europe. To quote that funny wee noddy dog that sells insurance:

“We must all turn our backs upon the horrors of the past. We must look to the future. We cannot afford to drag forward across the years that are to come the hatreds and revenges which have sprung from the injuries of the past.

If Europe is to be saved from infinite misery, and indeed from final doom, there must be an act of faith in the European family and an act of oblivion against all the crimes and follies of the past.
..
The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause.
..
Under and within that world concept, we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe.

The first step is to form a Council of Europe.

— Churchill, Sept 1946

The days of europeans fighting each other are over.

The Balkan conflict wasn’t that long ago.

Same thing I don’t worry about Scottish raiders attacking Yorkshire. We’ve moved on.

Scottish/english wars were what, 500 years ago. WWII was 70 years ago, the Yugoslav wars were what, 20 years ago.. hmm.. not really comparable. Especially as your example non-fighting countries Scotland and England are united.. irony.

Scottish/english wars were what, 500 years ago. WWII was 70 years ago, the Yugoslav wars were what, 20 years ago.. hmm.. not really comparable. Especially as your example non-fighting countries Scotland and England are united.. irony.

Even if they leave. I don’t remember outbreak of an English Scottish border war being part of the pro-union campaign.

Yugoslavia was part of the collapse of the USSR, so I dont see how that fits in. 70 years without a war strikes me as close enough to 500. It’s not like the last one is remembered fondly.

EDIT: I really find the argument perverse. Do people really think we’re what’s stopping the europeans fighting each other? Really bizarre.

Still not seeing any concrete reasoning.

The point about the integration of the European project is to cement peace and mutual prosperity. To make war between countries as absurd as war between Scotland and Yorkshire, to use your example. The fact that WW3 seems absurd to you suggests that it’s working. We’ve moved on, yes – because of integration!

It’s not like the last one is remembered fondly.

I don’t think anyone remembered World War 1 very fondly either but they still pushed for that difficult second album.

Yugoslavia was part of the collapse of the USSR

Pretty sure it was the death of Tito but carry on rewriting history

Pretty sure it was the death of Tito but carry on rewriting history

Fair enough. All the same period of fall of communism and break up of artificially created countries.

To put it into context the holocaust occurred during my father’s lifetime – so when I speak to my father I am talking to someone who was alive whilst the holocaust was being committed (when my father was a boy at that ame time people were being gassed and exterminated) and the fact that there has be an unprecedented period of peace amongst member states of the EEA/EEC/EU since WWII is down largely to the European project.

…and the fact that there has be an unprecedented period of peace amongst member states of the EEA/EEC/EU since WWII is down largely to the European project.

And when we leave they’ll fire up the ovens again?

I’m seriously considering not going to Europe again. I hadn’t realised they were teetering on the brink of savagery. Just us holding them back! We really are Great…

And when we leave they’ll fire up the ovens again?

Uhhh.. nooooo….

If we leave there’s a chance it will cause other countries to leave, which could mean the end of the EU.. and without the EU nationalism could rise, which could lead to conflict in the future…..

Understand?

And when we leave they’ll fire up the ovens again?

Nope – but as the Brexiteers are keen to point out, we are/were a major force in Europe and a major financial contributor.

Our exit will hurt it and could, possibly, be the beginning of the end for the EU.

(And same thing for the Convention on Human Rights. We helped to found it and now we want to leave it because we’ve decided that some humans deserve fewer rights. It undermines the whole thing.)

And when we leave they’ll fire up the ovens again?

That really is **** stupid^^^^^.
After centuries of war and the most unimaginable suffering someone finally decided enough was enough. Let’s try something different to stop us having so many wars.
To me it looks like it’s worked.

Understand?

Really, no. I obviously have a bit more faith in our neighbours. They’re not the warmongering lunatics you think they are. Even the French.

I don’t think they’re warmongering lunatics.

I’m not sure you understand how wars start…

I’m not sure you understand how wars start…

Usually with isolationism, xenophobia, blaming others, rising fascism and of course building walls.

Luckily there is no sign of that eh?

@crank we have the sovereign power to pick our exit date, we’ll be gone by 2019

Not even close to be true.

Even the Visegrads will have a say in what we can and cant do

#fakecontrol

And as for the “hey it’s not about race brigade” , I can point you to a lot of people for who it was.
My parents for two. It’s like being in the 70s when I visit them. Express and Mail reading people with too much time on their hands. My mum can’t actually believe that my brother (who goes to France regularly) doesn’t have to fight off murderers with a base ball bat. Every time he’s away I get the phone call ” I’m worried about your brother ,do you think he’s ok?”
You can’t tell me that my parents are the only **** wits in the country.
My mum actually voted out because her friend had a Nigerian nurse who was nasty to her in hospital.

Don’t worry Zippykona, my sister in law exposed herself as quite the ignorant racist thanks to Brexit

If it wasn’t for their grandkids im not sure if be speaking to my parents either. (They are on hols in corfu at the moment. I await with joy their complaints of how much extra it cost them :roll:) the unlike Jambs they are not well off enough that adding on 10? to the cost of your holiday doesn’t seem like a trivial thing

Even my bloody mother couldn’t help but mention the number of immigrants, and living in a backwater in Scotland means there basically aren’t any within 20 miles apart from a few waitresses and probably half of the staff who treat her in hospital. Bet she’d be glad if/when they are gone.

We never needed political union to keep the peace – the European Coal and Steel community was based on one simple thing – The thing that most of us right wingers were perfectly happy with

Like Toby says:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh9SgyGgBW0[/video]

When you lot of narrow minded lefties get your head around the fact that ‘us lot’ were perfectly happy with being in a Europe based on freedom of trade that we were promised, rather than the pseudo-federal political union it developed into, you might begin to understand why we voted out.

Cartels????

Ninfan – I take my hat off to you. It takes massive balls for a Brexiteer to accuse others of narrow mindeness.

Did you not mean – one way freedom of movement of people?

Did you not mean – one way freedom of movement of people?

I had made an edit as my fingers had been typing faster than my brain, But are you referring to freedom of movement of people, or the freedom of movement of Labour?

It doesnt matter in the context i was referring to – i find it hard to reconcile enjoying the freedom to move and work across Europe without restriction with wanting to restrict others from enjoying the same. There is a word for that….

FWIW. I am in favour of both.

When you lot of narrow minded lefties get your head around the fact that ‘us lot’ were perfectly happy with being in a Europe without the freedom of movement and political union that we were promised

Why is it a “leftie” issue? Weren’t large parts of the Tory party pro-Remain? Were they just the left wing Tories? And didn’t Labour have internal tussles over its position because of pro-Leave members?

European Coal and Steel community was based on one simple thing

Oooh ooh was it “freedom of movement”?

“The member States bind themselves to renounce any restriction based on nationality against the employment in the coal and steel industries of workers of proven qualifications for such industries who
possess the nationality of one of the member States; this commitment shall be subject to the limitations imposed by the fundamental needs of health and public order.”
— Article 69, para 1 Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (Paris, 18 April 1951)

Or was it the “political union” described in the earlier articles?

Edit: ah I see you’ve skilfully moved those goalposts.

Not even close to be true.

Let’s be specific.

We will pick out Article 50 date when we wish, 2 years later we are gone. So we chose the dates.
General view which I agree with is we will be gone before the 2019 European Parliament Elections tying in with an early 2017 A50 trigger.

Wars. There isn’t going to be an armed conflict UK vs anyone in EU. It’s just a non-starter, inconceivable. NATO is the organisation which provides security. The EU has proven itself totally incompetant in foreign affairs whether that be the Balkans, Ukraine, Russia or the migrant crises.

Since the referendum Junker and the EU have again raised the profile once more on the “need” for an EU army. This is for a number of reasons imo none good

EU comission wants to be in charge of more stuff – ego and power addicts
EU wants the ability to send armed forces into any country to enforce EU law,meg in migrant crises send troops into Greece/Italy/Spain etc to ensure all migrants are registered there
EU wants to pacify Russia by stepping away from NATO – the EU is very anti USA, this is very bad news for countries like Ukraine and Baltic States

There isn’t going to be an armed conflict UK vs anyone in EU

What about other countries vs other countries? Do you not know how WWII started?

Junker and the EU have again raised the profile once more on the “need” for an EU army. This is for a number of reasons imo none good

Hmm so given that the UK was anti-EU army this might now be more likely to happen?

Let’s be specific.

Yes let’s

We will pick out Article 50 date when we wish

Which is not what you said earlier – so good to be clear

2 years later we are gone.

Actually not true. It is possible for the 2 year to be extended by mutual consent under A50 although this is unlikely. However under #fakecontrol we are v much at the mercy of the negotiating position of the other EU states. We have little control over events – we are date takers, not date setters.