EU Referendum – are you in or out?

To be fair, at almost two thousand pages on this thread now, Mol’s position has been pretty clear to anyone who’s read more than two of them.

molgrips

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Take cars for example. Sure, selling to the EU is going to be more expensive because of tariffs, and buying our parts will be too. But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.

Nah. The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.

I really don’t know why we are still arguing about this. The arseholes have won this round. Lets wait for the UK to decline into a **** hole and then we can start rebuilding a sensible nation. TBH as gutted and disappointed as I am, I think this needed to happen. Lets hope that it only takes 2-5 years to **** it up and then next parliament we elect a party that supports federalism, PR and political responsibility punishable by long prison sentences.

Hence my policy is now: lets support the Tory **** and help them usher in their shite asap so we can get on with the ruining of the country post haste The sooner we can start a sensible rebuild rapidly after.

Still one of the trickiest areas… and not one I’d trust any prominent pro-Brexit politician to lead the negotiations on…

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/seminar_20200110_-_data_protection_adequacy_-_financial_services_en.pdf

(Most practical approach is to just say yes to the EU proposals before June, sign early, and let civil servants and businesses crack on with implementation before year end… not sure we have anyone “practical” in place though.)

Tugendhat holds dual British and French citizenship. His wife is a French judge and senior civil servant. #Brexit? He's all right, Jack. https://t.co/05Fo9H7mKO

— David Head (@DavidHeadViews) January 10, 2020

The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.

You think? I thought it was the main reason manufacturing was so expensive in the developed world?

I really don’t know why we are still arguing about this. The arseholes have won this round. Lets wait for the UK to decline into a **** hole and then we can start rebuilding a sensible nation.

I’m sceptical that a sensible nation will be allowed to exist.

I have a feeling that Bojo and Dom are planning on building their own government Cambridge Analytical and we’re going to have a much more proactive propaganda machine than we’re used to.

After all getting away owning the years of austerity and selling take back control and get Brexit done and generally running everything into the ground to be rewarded with total control.

2020’s gonna be 1994 🙂

84?

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The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.

You think? I thought it was the main reason manufacturing was so expensive in the developed world?

I had a googy on this as I think cars are ‘funny’ items as they rely on a serious amount of automation so for your labour costs you get a lot of work done.

What percentage of the cost of a car is Labor?

10-15% of a vehicle’s cost is labor. Another 20-30% of the cost is materials. 50-60% of a vehicle’s cost is “overhead,” defined as the plant that builds the car, the army of engineers employed by each manufacturer, the corporate structures (HR, accounting, etc.), advertising and marketing costs, etc.

I think the giggle is that lower labour costs mean nothing if after Brexit Independence Day, automakers fall foul of the ‘rules of origin’ which stipulate a high proportion of a car’s content must be made locally to avoid benefiting another country or region.

So unless we do some magic with Freeport there could be interesting times ahead

84?

Might be 🙂

The economic cost of Brexit has already hit $170 billion, new research shows https://t.co/5P7ZIwDJLR

— Bloomberg (@business) January 10, 2020

How many years of ‘payments’ to the EU does that equate to?

I haven’t done the maths, but that area under the line looks like much less than $170bill to me. So, cost of leaving already more than the payments made for the whole of the time we were members?

Well current net payment to EU is around £10-11billion per annum, so that would suggest 17-18 years. However, since payments have steadily increased that £170billion apparently equates to contributions over the past 47 years.

Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.

Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.

Don’t think anyone’s arguing about it tbh

So what’s the alternative viewpoint then ?

Democracy prevailed.

Yes it did.

That doesn’t mean I have to stop pointing out that the decision the ‘majority’ made is really bad, and hold them to account for the impact of that ongoing.

You made the bed. I’m going to make you lie in it and tell you the discomfort you will now have.

Edit: I also will hold you to account on the ‘plan’ and decisions now being made as we move forward.

flanagaj
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.

That’s why we have democracy.

So we don’t have to accept the alternative viewpoint and can keep campaigning even when defeated in a vote.

Or even change our minds once the vote is implemented.

Democracy is not a one time event…

I agree, but it hasn’t even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.

So, even though all the evidence suggests that its a terrible idea, and will harm people, everyone should just stop whingeing on until the damage is done and people have lost livelihoods?
I suppose we’re not allowed to say “I told you so” at that point, either?

* edited, as a bit too emotive, even though, Y’know…

Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.

How about those that over-turned the 1970’s vote, should we remove the vote from them too? Democracy is too nuanced for absolutes, if it becomes absolute is ceases to be democracy.

I have no intention of trying to overturn any vote but also no intention of ‘coming together’ and ‘making it work’.

Leave have been telling me for years my opinion holds no water so what I intend to do is sit back and say ‘We told you so’ quite a lot along with the occasional shake of the head when Johnson stiffs yet another area that ‘offered him their support’. As has been said the next phase is to make sure the loud bullies own their shite storm because as sure as night follows day it’s coming.

Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.

A vital part of democracy is public debate. That’s what this is. It doesn’t work otherwise, so I suggest you learn to deal with it, maybe join in instead of trying to shut it down.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-remain-eu-boris-johnson-leave-bmg-poll-a9279996.html

Democracy is not a one time event…

Unless it was a leave win in another Scottish independence referendum 😉

Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.

But… as often repeated by many people sceptical about the EU but with a reasonable understanding of what leaving it entails… the cost of not being in the EU isn’t that great… if we weren’t already EU members we’d have spent decades developing other reasonable but perhaps not quite as efficient ways of working with the rest of Europe… it is the ballache of leaving that is a huge act of national self harm. We’re not going to pretend otherwise and cheer it on like mindless automatons, just because half the population think it’s a good idea. The “rejoining” argument is mute… it won’t be an option for the UK, and doing so would not reverse the sunk cost and damage of leaving anyway.

Democracy prevailed.

Yes it did.

No it didn’t.

So, cost of leaving already more than the payments made for the whole of the time we were members?

I don’t have the link to hand, but I read a report the other day suggesting this will be the case by the end of the year. And, y’know, we’ve not left yet.

Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.

I accept your viewpoint. Why don’t you accept ours? Can’t have it both ways.

Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.

Absolutely no-one is trying to “overturn” anything. This is what we call a straw man, where you make something up to attack in order to make us look bad. It won’t wash, sorry.

No-one? I assume you mean since the election? Loads of people trying to overturn the EU referendum since it happened.

the cost of not being in the EU isn’t that great… if we weren’t already EU members we’d have spent decades developing other reasonable but perhaps not quite as efficient ways of working with the rest of Europe…

I can see what you’re getting at, Kelvin, but by the early 70s the cost of not being in the EU was becoming so apparent that a Tory government wanted to join, and did. And if you check out comparative growth curves before and after joining it looks like joining was a good move.

Loads of people trying to overturn the EU referendum since it happened.

Then they’re idiots.

it was an advisory referendum (I’m amazed no-one has mentioned this before) and there was a subsequent court case which concluded that May invoked A50 of her own volition independently of the referendum. If hypothetically we were to overturn the result, what would it change? Bog all, it was an opinion poll.

In any case, our esteemed colleague was referring to the recent election I thought?

I agree, but it hasn’t even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU

Damage has already been done, £170bn taken out of the economy so far, exclusions from scientific funding & clinical trials and plenty more

Perfectly reasonable to campaign to stop the madness, as well as it’s perfectly reasonable to point out that it’s still a hilariously daft thing to be doing

it looks like joining was a good move.

Oh, there have been, and still are, huge advantages to being an EU member… my point is that the cost of leaving is far more than just about losing those advantages… and can never be regained by rejoining later, even it that was offered. People are still balancing up being a member against not being a member… and ignoring the huge cost and damage of leaving… partly, I suppose, due to nonsense such as claiming Brexit will be “done” shortly, or that we can have a “clean” break. The task of leaving is itself an act of self harm that can not be truly undone… ever… yet is just shrugged of as “democratic”, as if that will neutralise the impact on the UK somehow.

‘Member
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.

Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.’

Having a longish memory, and also being a bit* of a d1ck, I’ll now remind you that you called for riots if Brexit wasn’t delivered. What part of rioting does democracy fall under?

*A lot.

Democracy prevailed.

No it didn’t. We don’t have “democracy by referendum” we have a “parliamentary democracy”. That’s why there was a supreme court ruling regarding prorogation.

I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed.

Flippin eck. Democracy isn’t a single system with one set of rules that you have to play by. It’s not football.

*A* democracy is a government system that includes people voting on things. Most of them work differently.

Just because there was a referendum on something doesn’t mean it was a perfect decision, and doesn’t mean it was a good idea. Nor does it mean we have to stop pointing this out.

Cougar – can’t really believe you’re serious with your comment about an advisory referendum.
It’s been written and talked about extensively; I can’t be arsed to trawl through a squillion posts on here about it.
Cameron and/or May said that the result would be regarded as binding despite the referendum being advisory and that parliament would respect thew ‘will of the people’.
Numpties both; devoid of any true conviction.
As for where we are now – Brexit is happening; the focus must be on making it as good as possible – that is, least harmful to GB’s interests. That is where an effective opposition can make its mark – I’m not holding my breath.

That is where an effective opposition can make its mark

Not sure how any opposition could steer govt policy in the current situation…?

Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.

Those who don’t understand how democracy works should be stripped of the vote.

You’d probably feel more at home in some South American tin pot dictatorship.

Off you go.

Cameron and/or May said that the result would be regarded as binding despite the referendum being advisory and that parliament would respect thew ‘will of the people’.

Politicians promise lots of things all the time, doesn’t make it legally binding (more’s the pity). Quite why this one detail is sacrosanct and the rest cheerfully ignored I have no idea. Six months ago Boris was building a bridge across to Ireland, how’s that working out?