EU Referendum – are you in or out?

everyone will want to claim they won no matter what.

That’s all the brexiters ever really wanted.

Whether you agree or not with the approach it seems a clear strategy.

Oh, you’re absolutely right in that it’s a clear strategy. It’s just highly unlikely to be the one you seem to think it is.

As for Erasmus, this is an old article but sums up the options well:

https://www.france24.com/en/20170310-brexit-future-erasmus-uk-student-exchange-bilateral-scheme-eu-freedom-movement

The biscuits are going to have to comply with EU standards, I can’t see the UK agreeing to that.

MPs have voted against New Clause 2 being added to the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill, by 344 votes to 255.

This new clause would have required the Government to negotiate a comprehensive agreement with the
EU protecting workers’ rights.

— UK House of Commons (@HouseofCommons) January 8, 2020

Comments mostly seem to be saying that it’ll be great that the EU isn’t telling us what to do whilst simultaneously arguing that the UK has higher standards anyway.

Le sigh, as they say in France.

I’m quite sure it’s exactly what I think it is.

I didn’t understand the relevance about what brexiters wanted, so what? What’s that got to do with the negotiating strategy for the UK?

Awaits the bigots shouting ‘ but their all Tory scum, we’re all heading to a workhouse in 3 , 2 ..

I’m quite sure it’s exactly what I think it is.

Time, as they say, well tell. I sincerely wish I shared your optimism.

I didn’t understand the relevance about what brexiters wanted, so what?

It was a joke, jest, merriment, witticism or punne.

And the negotiating strategy is, excee? Because from where I’m sitting the negotiating strategy seems to be a reluctance to negotiate to the point of declining an extension that would allow sufficient time. Take a look at the years that went into negotiating the CETA, there’s now less than a year left, Van de Leyen has proposed an extension and Boris refuses point blank to extend. Crash out with next to no agreement is most probable.

their all Tory scum

I want a T-shirt that says “They’re all Tory scum – proud to be a bigot”

Is it actually possible to be bigoted against tories? It’s not like they’re a persecuted ethnic minority or anything like that.

I mean, I’m probably bigoted against **** and there’s a hefty intersection on the Venn diagram, but still…

exsee

It not me that is making stuff up. The vote not to continue with Erasmus is quite clear as NOrthwind explains very clearly

I note you still have not come up with a single bit of evidence to support your claims so its merely a baseless assertion.

And the negotiating strategy is, excee?

Presumably it’s the same logic as refusing to rule out ‘no deal’ brexit. It’s like negotiating a divorce by holding a gun to your head and screaming “if I can’t keep the TV, I’ll pull the trigger, I will, just watch me!”

Does anyone really believe that threatening to burn workers’ rights etc is a valid negotiating tactic? What’s to stop the EU27 going “eh, off you go then, c’est la vie”? Why would they care what we do to our own populace after we’ve left?

Sure, there’s the small matter of EU27 migrants working in the UK, but at the rate we’re going they’ll all have buggered off by then anyway.

The vote not to continue with Erasmus is quite clear as NOrthwind explains very clearly

It’s not a vote not to continue with it. It’s quite easy to see how they might want to remove obligations to give themselves as much flexibility as possible. It’s how I’d expect them to work.

You’re not exactly correct, so you might as well drop the aggressive line of questioning, simply express your scpeticism and leave it there.

What’s to stop the EU27 going “eh, off you go then, c’est la vie”? Why would they care what we do to our own populace after we’ve left?

Because by slashing worker protection we can make our exports cheaper, which means we’ll have a competitive edge – they are our competitors now. It’s in their interests to prevent us gaining an advantage.

Yup. The EU totally knows that we’re going to out-negotiate a conglomeration of 27 other countries over export trade deals post-brexit (on WTO if we’re lucky). German jam factories must be shitting themselves.

molgrips

Subscriber

It’s not a vote not to continue with it. It’s quite easy to see how they might want to remove obligations

The only obligation that the amendment would have put on them was to try. There was no obligation to actually deliver. And yes it is very easy to see why they’d want to remove the obligation just to make the attempt.

It’s how I’d expect them to work.

Me too.

Because by slashing worker protection we can make our exports cheaper, which means we’ll have a competitive edge – they are our competitors now. It’s in their interests to prevent us gaining an advantage

But don’t the UK have to have worker’s rights in line with EU rules in order to play in the EU markets?

The vote is a very clear signal they have zero intention of continuing with Erasmus. they are not even going to try. We will not meet the conditions for it without legislation

Its also perfectly clear that Johnson wants no deal. He is putting false barriers in the way of getting a deal.

Tory parents eat their young

But don’t the UK have to have worker’s rights in line with EU rules in order to play in the EU markets?

Yes – hence we are heading for “no deal”

But don’t the UK have to have worker’s rights in line with EU rules in order to play in the EU markets?

Yes but we are competing with them to sell stuff to the rest of the world.

Such as things other EU countries do better than the UK and at lower costs due to the weaker pound.

What does the UK produce other than marmite that the rest of the world needs as opposed to wants. It seems to me that much of UK goods are high end things that nobody needs.

Seems to be a massive paradox/schroedingers trade deal! In order to close a free trade deal with the EU we will have to maintain all current levels of standards and stay closely aligned in future. To get a free trade deal with the US we will have to agree to lower standards and distance ourselves from EU rules and regs. Not sure how we are going to square that circle.

Fact check ch4 thingy

No that’s not correct tj

We haven’t agreed any trade deal based on workers rights yet? The more we diverge the further apart we will be, the more we align the simpler things get but if we agree to legally align before we start then the negotiation doesn’t become easier. CETA workers rights are a bit vague I believe so it’s not all black and white.
Nobody has voted or suggested the burning of workers rights (unless you believe Bonners and tj which I struggle to imagine)

Nobody has voted or suggested the burning of workers rights

… they’ve just made it possible, is all. Nothing to worry about, I’m sure they all have our best interests at heart. Project fear.

Nobody has voted or suggested the burning of workers rights

Yes they have – all of them. Bonfire of red tape? Not going to remain in alignment with the EU?

I suggest you need to actually read up on it a bit and open your eyes. Its been the main aim right from the beggining. many many public statements from Johnson. Rees Mogg, etc over many years. Just one example here

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/28/boris-johnson-backs-telegraph-campaign-cut-eu-red-tape-choking/

Exsee

Its about as clear a signal that they intend to do away with Erasmus as is possible. No we haven’t pulled out yet. Will we still be in it next year? No. completely impossible to remain in it given Johnsons positions and the fact no budget is allocated for it.

Have a read of the Erasmus site – it makes it very clear that given Johnsons positions then remaining in Erasmus is impossible

Workers rights

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-workers-rights-environment-climate-change-election-a9248611.html

Boris Johnson ‘bins’ promises to safeguard our rights and avoid no-deal as Brexit Bill returns to Commons

No the vote on Erasmus wasn’t a clear signal of anything much at all, nothings changed so still hope just as before. Not great but that’s the way it is.

Did you read your article from the London economic? The only quote in there is the actual government policy.

many many public statements from Johnson

Since when do Johnson’s statements indicate what he wants to do? All they indicate is what he wants us to hear. He’ll say whatever wins him support. Time will tell, but I don’t think you can take ANYTHING he says at face value.

What does the UK produce other than marmite that the rest of the world needs as opposed to wants. It seems to me that much of UK goods are high end things that nobody needs.

All sorts of things. Take cars for example. Sure, selling to the EU is going to be more expensive because of tariffs, and buying our parts will be too. But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.

What Boris Johnson? he’d never lie

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/watch-boris-johnson-tell-the-dup-in-2018-he-would-never-put-border-in-the-irish-sea-today-he-put-a-border-in-the-irish-sea-1-9110754

Cars are a bad example, Molgrips, the UK will always be high cost compared with eastern Europe; countries that weren’t in the EU when the Japanesse chose the UK to gain a foothold in EU. The Japanese have already made their position on a hard Brexit clear and beyond the investments they’ve already made for current platforms they won’t be throwing any more money at the UK.

But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.

Labour costs will come down through automation (loss of jobs) or lower wages as far as I can see. none of them great for the workers.

But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.

You are lyingblohard and I’d like my £5 paid in €5 because once the UK’s workforce are asked to work longer for less, and whole tranches of workers have been laid off you will indeed have a cheap workforce and one back on strike for equal wages and working time practices like we currently enjoy being in the EU.

But carry on ruining UK manufacturing.

Jeeze, there are some proper weirdos in the forum.

Seems to be a massive paradox/schroedingers trade deal! In order to close a free trade deal with the EU we will have to maintain all current levels of standards and stay closely aligned in future. To get a free trade deal with the US we will have to agree to lower standards and distance ourselves from EU rules and regs. Not sure how we are going to square that circle.

Mmmm well they were banging on about high-tech solutions for borders perhaps they’ve cracked it with an alternative reality generator 🙂

Your right and the amazing speed that they intended to do this whilst deviating from everything with the fantasy of becoming Singapore on Thames.

Denying intelligent young people the opportunity to study abroad and experience foreign cultures in the flesh doesn’t seem at odds with a lot of the motivations behind Brexit anyway.

Resentment and mistrust of intelligence? Check.

Resentment of youth? Check.

Fear of anything ‘foreign’? Check.

Dovetails quite nicely and will go down well with the luddite thickos.

You are lyingblohard and I’d like my £5 paid in €5 because once the UK’s workforce are asked to work longer for less, and whole tranches of workers have been laid off you will indeed have a cheap workforce and one back on strike for equal wages and working time practices like we currently enjoy being in the EU.

But carry on ruining UK manufacturing.

Jeeze, there are some proper weirdos in the forum.

Mate, pay attention. I’m not saying I want any of that to happen or that it will be a good thing. Someone asked why the EU would care about what we do to our workforce, I gave an example why. Ok so the car example is bad, but point stands – if our labour costs go down then we could in theory take market share from them exporting to RoW but to be clear – I do not want this to happen. I would like the UK to be high value high skill manufacturing based not a bargain basement. I am also an arch remainer.

Point of note, the UK’s biggest export industry is services, not manufacturing.

Seems to be a massive paradox/schroedingers trade deal! In order to close a free trade deal with the EU we will have to maintain all current levels of standards and stay closely aligned in future. To get a free trade deal with the US we will have to agree to lower standards and distance ourselves from EU rules and regs. Not sure how we are going to square that circle.

Which is why it is a stupid bloody idea.

But this was never about sense or fairness or addressing wrongs that ought to be righted.

It was about people’s worst instincts being pandered to by a bunch of people who stand to make a fortune one way or another and to hell with the consequences.

The greatest heist in history.

Mate, pay attention

I did, thats why I quoted your post.

Nice to see you’ve clarified your own position though, should have done that much sooner in the thread… save all the angst and missives thrown your way.

I thought I’d made it abundantly clear!

As I said before my position now is tending towards European Federalism. **** nationalism.