EU Referendum – are you in or out?

exsee

Member
Yep I’m sure.

Yeah Switzeralnd tried to ignore FOM & still be part of ERASMUS

they failed & got booted out

what point will many realise the national economic and social pain, and personal cost, that Brexit and the Tories are about to unleash? Too many years down the line and after too much (foul) water has passed under the bridge it seems.

Sadly this is probably true- the areas ravaged by Thatcher seemed happy to vote for Brexit and Johnson. When it’s all turned to shite, who will they blame?

Exsee is, of course, right good to see there is still a one eyed man on this thread.

Really Mefty – can you explain? given the commons has voted against remaining in it and we will not meet the criteria any more?

Struggling to give two shits any more tbh. I’m at this point just trying to look after my own and looking to limit damage.

I think the point tj is that the commons voted not to add it as an amendment, but that didn’t mean they might not try and keep it going otherwise.

I’m just here for the biscuits now though. What do any of us know about what’s going to happen?

Given the timescale for negotiations, the list of stuff like Erasmus that they donn’t give a toss about, and are no longer going to bother with, is going to be a long one

also curious to hear both mefty & exsee explain how this will work?

or are they just trolling?

How what will work, cougars post? UK still committed to child refugees but it doesn’t need to be in the negotiations as a specific item is the UK position I think.

If the government is not prepared to signal that it wants the UK to be involved in Erasmus now, what it decides to do later in the year is mute, because we’d already have frozen ourselves out of it by then.

As regards the Dubs amendment etc, those sticking to the “we don’t have to commit to anything, but that doesn’t mean anything will change” are dancing on the head of a pin. We are dropping commitments so as not to have to honour them. If when you ask yourself why, your genuine answer is “because our government is honourable, so doesn’t need to bind itself with commitments”… ask yourself how people and agencies are supposed to get on with helping people without rules to aid them, just the vague notion that the government will do the right thing.

It feels like we’re back to… “who needs rules, we’re British, and always do the right thing”, ignoring the Kafkaesque holes people can fall between when the law is not set out clearly and they are left to the whims of officials being leant on to hit targets and be deliberately or accidentally obstructive.

They have signalled their intentions on the Erasmus scheme.

Why was my post removed mods?

It simply stated an open opinion. And a valid one too.
Happy to chat about it.

Whoa didn’t see all of that first time. You’ve convinced yourself of a scary scenario.

You were calling people retards on a family forum. It isn’t 1980 or the daily mail here mate. Take a break and chill

I’ve edited the post and reinstated it. If only because the subsequent replies don’t make sense otherwise.

They have signalled their intentions on the Erasmus scheme.

Recently? Great! Link?

They have signalled their intentions on the Erasmus scheme.

Indeed they have – and they have indicated they want to drop it

Now please – you have been asked why you are so confident it will continue despite the tories voting against and despite the UK not meeting the requirements and despite no funding in place for it

so please what is your evidence it will continue in the UK

Top work cougar. It’s an emotive matter but no excuses, I would like to see the political bigotry squashed a bit too, it is rife on here man

Is this becoming some weird trap, the UK position on Erasmus has not changed because of the vote about a requirement to negotiate, the options that were there last week are still there. TJ you keep making stuff up then asking me to justify it. The government did not vote against continuing with Erasmus yesterday, its position is still to discuss/negotiate Erasmus possibilities or alternatives.

You can’t take away peoples opinion. Political or otherwise.

The literal definition of the word I used is valid, it explains a lot of the underlying thoughts of general public.

If you have read it in a mental health capacity then that’s your problem, probably because you don’t know the literal definition.

You are right, it’s not the 70’s. But we are heading back there, and terminology of that era is returning. I’m not the only one to have recognised the return of words or phrases that seek to demonise or belittle segments of the public.

I’ll make my point simpler, for those who failed to understand it previously:

If they haven’t got what you’ve got, or gain any benefit from it, they see no reason why you should have it.

Thats simple.

Take it to the mods dude ain’t my problem.

What is your problem?

Youve been asked to back up some of your statements ^ and we’re sitting waiting for the reply.

The Mods have re-instated my post, it is self explanatory and I’ve even simplified or summarised it for all to see. The word has been taken out, fair point if people choose to apply it to a derogatory word used in the 70’s to explain a mental health issue, but it’s literal definition doesn’t mean that.

But that’s fine. It’s the first time this has ever happened to me and I’m quite vocal on here.

And I’ll just apply the same shrug as the Brexiteers do when I’m challenged about my political stance.

Its not me thats making stuff up. The tories voted against continuing with Erasmus and against letting child refugees be reunited with their families. Thats a simple fact.

There is also the nvconvenient fact that there is no funding for it.

So given those facts why are you so confident it will continue? Remember we will no longer meet the criteria for it without a bill being passed.

Just one little link to someone in the government stating it will continue? One tiny weeny link?

Edit – its not a trap to ask why yu think something will happen when the evidence is against it. So you claim something that allthe evidence I have seen says is wrong – so all we do is ask you what evidence you have? If you have none its simply a baseless assertion

exsee – on the Erasmus site it makes it clear that in the event of ” no deal” which is obviously where we are heading then Erasmus will no longer be available for the UK unless laws are passed that makes it possible

I hope exsee is right, and welcome a quote from anyone now in the cabinet saying that it is this* government’s intention for the UK to try and be part of Erasmus, in some capacity. Any capacity! I would like to feed my hope…

[*not May’s government]

The literal definition of the word I used is valid, it explains a lot of the underlying thoughts of general public.

If you have read it in a mental health capacity then that’s your problem, probably because you don’t know the literal definition.

I just looked it up in the Cambridge dictionary. It says, “noun [ C ] offensive”. Collins says similar, even Wikipedia lists it as pejorative. So whatever intent you may have had and whatever ‘literal’ meaning you’re prescribing to it, it’s likely inappropriate here.

(FWIW, I got a warning for using it a couple of weeks after first joining STW, long before I was a moderator.)

They have signalled their intentions on the Erasmus scheme.

In 2018, EU and UK Government have indicated that for 2019-20, Erasmus will continue. UK Government asked any providers in the UK to register with them, and they would commit to the agreements in place. This was when, under PM May, they were committed to continuing Erasmus, even in the event of a no deal.
We were also told, by UK Govt and National Agency the British Council, that in the event of a no deal, that UK was commited to Erasmus in writing and will continue.

Today marks a big step away from that written, published, thought through and agreed standpoint.

Even if this is purely negotiating headroom, the underlying message is ‘we are not commited to it’.

Our EU neighbours hear that message loud and clear. Even if the negotiations this year include Erasmus, it is with less commitment and vigor than before.

Our potential partners in Europe are going to be unwilling to enter into Erasmus project partnerships with UK organisations, in case it comes crashing down and because they don’t think our government care about it.

I predict huge drop off in EU student numbers in the UK this September. At great cost to our universities.

I just don’t have the trust that exsee does in our Tory overlords.

Bikebuoy, I don’t have a problem, if you want special privileges for certain words then take it to the mods,

Tj you’re still making stuff up, I’m guessing you’ve realised the vote wasn’t what you claim so now looking to save face by loading the question. I never said it ‘will’ continue, Matt said it was gone because of the vote yesterday I said it’s still on the table as nothing has change so still some hope.

Kelvin. My first Google hit was feweek.co.uk, the eve standard also had a piece but don’t think there was a quote from anyone. The vote yesterday was not a yes or no to erasmus

The CETA which still still isn’t fully applied AFAIK is between Canada with it’s natural resources and Europe with cars, wine, luxury goods… to sell. It’s a good fit. The UK on the other had is just an undercutting tax avoidance center with nothing worth having to offer. If I were negotiating there’s no way I’d offer CETA.

I just don’t have the trust that exsee does in our Tory overlords.

What really ?

It’s not like johnson promised the dup they’d never put a customs border down the irish sea?

Exsee & mefty seem quite happy with vague assertions from the government, despite the experience of Switzerland

The irony of that the Tories claim that they’ll use Brexit to boost UK scientific research.!

Today marks a big step away from that written, published, thought through and agreed standpoint.

Even if this is purely negotiating headroom, the underlying message is ‘we are not commited to it’.

Quite. Excee can, quite rightly to their credit, argue that this doesn’t absolutely mean we won’t continue with the ERASMUS programme post-2020. However, the problem is that it no longer means that we will either.

And it does rather beg the question as to why, what’s the end goal here? I mean, even with your favourite “project fear, it’s all fine” hat on, at best this just brings more uncertainty and we’ve seen how well that’s worked out for us for the last three or four years. I thought “getting brexit done” was supposed to be doing the opposite of that.

Even if you’re sitting there in your Silver Jubilee commemorative boxer shorts going “yay brexit,” you would surely be hopelessly naive not to be just the slightest bit sceptical, would you not?

I’d like to add more to my point above about how we should all react to the current underlying political situation and motives.

Its well known in the world of Leadership and Management that 3 key ingredients exist to perform the task of effective Leadership, and I’ll quote it:

<b>Honesty</b> and <b>integrity</b> are key ingredients in developing <b>trust</b>. <b>Trust</b> is a key element in establishing credibility.

We have established since 2016, and the recent General Election, that these key ingredients no longer exist and should no longer be a cohesive mantra for Leadership or Management.

The UK has proven that there is a whole new mantra, a complete tear up and disregard for those values and the current political leadership is littered, and documented, with the complete opposite of those ideals.

We now follow the mantra of:

Lies, dishonesty and suspicion.

So, when anything is published by this government and its supporters, oh.. and those that supported Brexit you should apply the new mantra to what they say. Simply because they will apply those “rules” to each and every word they type or write.

We better get used to it, the landscape has changed and it’s ok to act in the same manner as they do. It maybe hard, unnerving, alien or totally against your own ethical makeup.. but sure as eggs are indeed eggs (though, they would argue that eggs are not eggs but something else, and not egg shaped or taste of egg) you will be talked to with the new world mantra.

Best get on with adopting the new programme.

The reason the Erasmus thing is important should be really obvious. If you’re committed to something, if you intend to do it, there’s absolutely no reason to vote down a change that just turns that intention into a requirement to attempt to remain. That last bit’s really important- this amendment didn’t force the government to keep us in Erasmus+, it only required them to try.

So why vote down something that requires you to try, if you’re going to try? What is a commitment to try worth, if on the same day you vote down an amendment that would commit you to try?

The only reason to do that is to free you from even attempting to maintain it. So yes the government have signalled their intentions- with words, which mean nothing, and with actions.

(likewise with child refugees; they claim there is a commitment but they won’t allow that commitment to be enshrined in law. Shows exactly how committed that commitment is doesn’t it)

All that aside; any brexit without a degree of freedom of movement would make full membership of Erasmus+ impossible. The swiss situation as mentioned already demonstrates that very clearly. (and this has already been explained by the few people in the thread who know anything about Erasmums, and denied by some people who don’t)

What is an option instead, is using something very like the swiss interim solution on a permanent basis. That is, we can continue to be 2nd class partner members of Erasmus+ but we lose all of the reciprocity, we have to pay for every student instead, and we lose all of the simplicity and dependability which makes Erasmus+ exchanges such a great option.

And I can say one simple thing about that- my uni sent on average 4 kids a year to Switzerland and received on average the same back, when they were full members. Since the change in 2014, we’ve sent 1 student to all of the partner institutions combined including Switzerland, and received 2 back. Being a partner nation is sufficiently second class that most people just don’t bother. Why deal with the extra hassle and uncertainty to go to Switzerland, when you can go to Germany or France more easily and with total equality?

But the other thing that is frequently overlooked, is that the swiss interim solution only applied to the most visible Erasmus+ benefits, that of student exchanges. But Erasmus is not all about that- it’s involved in teaching, research (as, again, mentioned earlier and ignored) and sports. And Switzerland has lost all of those.

There is no cake and eat it option. There’s a “No cake but you can have some biscuits, as long as you pay for the biscuits” option.

Lies, dishonesty and suspicion.

The first to understand this are EU27 citizens such as me. And we want our governments to be wary, untrusting and suspicious when negotiating with the UK.

There is no cake and eat it option. There’s a “No cake but you can have some biscuits, as long as you pay for the biscuits” option.

Beautifully put, and the nail on the head. Brace yourself for a “the EU is punishing us!!” narrative incoming in 3… 2…

We want to opt out of everything, but still have it. From beginning to end, brexit has been like ticking the box that says “do not send me marketing emails” and then complaining that all your mates have got discount vouchers and you haven’t (and then blaming the company). It’s absolutely brain-dead.

Agreed Matt, I would say, it isn’t actually a big step from previous statements but the vote could be perceived as such (hence many here having knee jerk reactions to a headline) so an irrelevant vote still causes heavy damage
Cougar, I would say it’s all about flexibility in the negotiations because everyone will want to claim they won no matter what. Whether you agree or not with the approach it seems a clear strategy.

Students don’t vote Tory.
Next.

yourguitarhero

Member

Students don’t vote Tory.

Parents do.