EU Referendum – are you in or out?

The only cable that matters was laid on 23rd June 2016.

You must know Vince well.

March 2016 GO met with EU and came back and said he could abolish the TT, then other stuff took over the agenda. It’s in the newspapers from that time.

Yep but it was such a powerful reason to leave the EU the fact it wasn’t actually relevant(as a done deal) seems to have been missed inadvertently by the writers of the Tory Manifesto.

So, with the point of no return coming up in… six weeks or so… when do you think they’ll deign to sketch out a rough idea as to what the plan is for replacing EU membership? February 2020, or December 2020?

Fortunately we're the 7th biggest economy in the world. Sounds big. Tough. Powerful.

However, as a % of global GDP –

1. USA – 23%
2. EU – 17%
3. China – 15%

7. UK 2% (and falling)

Rola Cola is the 7th biggest cola brand. They don't dictate terms to Coke and Pepsi.

2/6

— Russ (@RussInCheshire) December 20, 2019

But let's look again at that map. Notice anything?

There are no non-contiguous trade blocs. At all. Every country in a trade bloc — i.e. all of them — is in a bloc with it's neighbours

And cos we are at the edge of a continent, there's only one bloc next to us.

The EU.

4/6 pic.twitter.com/AznELQ6X8N

— Russ (@RussInCheshire) December 20, 2019

So all you Leave voters: congratulations. No, really. It was — I nearly said "a fair fight" but let's not kid ourselves

But regardless, you won. We are leaving the EU

For a bit.

So don't get too cross when you see #Rejoin hashtags, cos, well… there's nowhere else to go

6/6

— Russ (@RussInCheshire) December 20, 2019

We need a close relationship with the EEA… but we have a government claiming we can escape alignment with the EU… and use that to leverage new trade deals around the world. A government that has already said that even if that succeeds it’ll be insignificant compared to what we will lose as we leave the EEA&CU as regards trade… so, what’s the plan?

so, what’s the plan?

Hope that the USA spits on it before fisting us to oblivion.

Plan?

There was never ever anything vaguely resembling a plan for obvious reasons.

4 new civil service departments to be created to deal with the extra bureaucracy & red tape of brexit

Good news is they will be out of London

But the costs (£bns) mean money not going to the actual problems we face, just the one we are creating for ourselves

https://www.ft.com/content/56230938-27d7-11ea-9305-4234e74b0ef3

4 new civil service departments to be created to deal with the extra bureaucracy & red tape of brexit

Fantastic, think of all those new jobs it’ll create! We’re benefiting already!!1!

I am sure Dom had his heart set on making the civil service redundant and handing power to the (un) elected cabinet?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-company-wins-licence-to-monitor-british-fishing-boats-5dk8wp6gr

The business that will monitor UK vessels is part-owned by the French government.

The contract was awarded by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) in late summer having previously been held by a British firm, Globavista.

MPs have voted against New Clause 10 being read a second time, by 344 votes to 254.

This new clause would have required the Government to seek to negotiate continuing full membership of the EU’s Erasmus+ education and youth programme.

— UK House of Commons (@HouseofCommons) January 8, 2020

They’re not even going to try, are they.

The alternative view is that these amendments/clauses do not need to be added to the withdrawal agreement. They will restrict the flexibility of the negotiations.

The aim is no deal, no trade bloc, trade treaty with the US and goodbye to all our worker and environmental protections to increase profits for a few. that this will impoverish the country to them is a price worth paying for their increased riches and freedom to abuse workers

And they will eat your babies too, don’t forget that bit.

TJ is right though. Yesterday Joris Bohnson made two staements about the negotiations and our future relationship with the EU

1. The timescale would not be extended under anu circumstances

2. The UK has no intention of continuing regulatery alignment with the EU and intends to diverge from EU rules and standards

These two things are mutually incompatible. Why would the EU give an easy trade deal to a country that has just signalled it intends to deregulate its economy?

When Boris says we intend to ‘diverge’ from EU standards, he means the tearing up workers rights, environmental and food standards, slash tax and deregulate the financial industry.

The Eu aren’t just going to take that and give us a nice cushy trade deal. they’re going to tell us to **** off. I can’t see anythign else other than a No Deal crash out in December. Given the stated aim of this government, thats the only feasable outcome

I do wonder how Johnson will spin it

His withdrawl agreement, was bascially him folding like a wet napkin & giving Vardkaar the customs border down the Irish Sea that Ireland had wanted from day 1

Of course it broke the explicit promise Johnson had personally made to the DUP, and wasa huge climbdown for the UK

but all we heard about was how amazing it was that he’d reopened the talks & got rid of the backstop, that he’d driven a wedge into the UK & replaced it with a frontstop , is somehow ignored

I predict a similar climbdown in a year that will still be sold as a victory

@exsee

And they will eat your babies too, don’t forget that bit.

Steady on, that plan only takes effect if the economy really tanks and there are food shortages.

I predict a similar climbdown in a year that will still be sold as a victory

The problem with that is that when he climbed down last time, the only people he was throwing under the bus were the DUP, and they’d served their purpose

This time its Borises paymasters who would have to be sold down the river. The hedge fund managers, speculators and disaster capitalists who bankrolled his leadership, and then general election campaigns. They want their payback payday that only a no deal Brexit can deliver

When Boris says we intend to ‘diverge’ from EU standards, he means the tearing up workers rights, environmental and food standards, slash tax and deregulate the financial industry.

The Eu aren’t just going to take that and give us a nice cushy trade deal. they’re going to tell us to **** off.

Nope. UK is using CETA as a start point for negotiations. UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.

“When Boris says we intend to ‘diverge’ from EU standards…”

“UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously”

Maybe Borris will just cross out “EU” and scribble “UK” instead.

If Johnson and co wanted to retain high standards then there is no need to diverge from EU standards. Do not be so naive.

Its not just animal welfare – its sick pay, holiday pay, worker protection, environmental standards etc. We are already the worst in the EU on most of these barely meeting the minimum standards

This is the ” bonfire of red tape” they want. They want to be like the US – 2 weeks holiday a year, no protection from dismissal, No workplace rights

UK is using CETA as a start point for negotiations. UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.

Which is it? Based on CETA, or continue with current standards?

Anyway, Erasmus cooperation could be continued after we drop EU membership… and to be fair to Johnson and his team, they said so explicitly back in 2016 that was the case. So why not commit to try and negotiate participating in Erasmus now? They are not going to bother with it, are they… if you’re from a rich family, you don’t really need the scheme anyway.

Nope. UK is using CETA as a start point for negotiations. UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.

Eh?

CETA doesnt come close to the standards we have through EU membership

the USA listed downgrading workers rights, enviromental, food & agriculture standards in their leaked negotiation wishlist

all of which Johnson dutifully removed from the legally binding WA to the meaningless Political Declaration

OFFICIAL-SENSITIVE: Great Britain is practically standing on her knees working on a trade agreement with the US from worldpolitics

I feel a convulted sense of schadenfreude coming on, which is incredibly ironic as I’m also going to get **** by this.

Anyone who thinks workers rights are going to remain the same or indeed improve are naive. The same goes for just about every aspect of life once the pound tanks.

There is a very select, well off, selfish group of people who are going to benefit from this debacle.

It will be delivering the same high UK standards but the wording in our agreement will be based on CETA in some aspects. If Canada doesn’t need full legal alignment written in then why would the UK agree to that

It’s nothing to do with naivety tj, I was countering your made up bigoted view of the future with a more reasonable prediction.

a more reasonable prediction.

Pineapple-ringed spectacles more like.

Erasmus gone.

As a result my boss will be letting three more staff go who were funded by Erasmus to lead projects exchanging best practice and innovation in education across the UK. It’s a £200k hole in our organisation since last year.

This stings and hurts. This is no deal Brexit cutting real deep.

Can someone who is a brexiteer explain to me how this is a Good Thing?

UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.

Where’d you get that idea from?

Since when are Tories big on worker protection and rights?

exsee

Johnson and his backers have stated that they want to do away with workers protections and environmental standards. Its one of the main aims. along with selling of the NHS

Hence me stating your position is naive – because it is.

Then present Tory mob have already flagged up exactly what they intend to do once ‘free of the shackles of the EU’. You can read it for yourself. It was written by Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Chris Skidmore and Liz Truss, all of whom now occupy senior cabinet roles

In summary: tear up workers rights and deregulate everything, while slashing tax for the rich and corporations. Turning the country into a sweatshop/tax haven

And thats exactly what they mean when they talk about ‘regulatory divergence’ from the EU. A lot of the things we take for granted as part of a civilised society are about to be torched

We’re about to be a test bed for the most extreme form of turbo-charged neoliberal economics. They’ll go through the motions during the next year of pretending to negotiate with the EU, but no deal is what they want as it gives them a blank sheet of paper

Can someone who is a brexiteer explain to me how this is a Good Thing?

There aren’t any who would actually own up to being a Brexiteer, after all you’d be called out  for being many of the naughtiest words on the planet.

And they DGAS, they “won” we lost, thats all they care about.

Quite why this is a surprise to any normal thinking human being is well, beyond any comprehension.

But you voted for it, you’ll have to suffer it just like they will. The only difference is they won’t be affected since they don’t mix in the same circles.

Predictable as having a shit in the morning, theres plenty more to come.

And you have no voice, because lyingblohard and his cohorts don’t care what you say and aren’t listening.

You may as well close this thread down and get with the program.

Work harder for less, do as they say and don’t question their decisions.

Predicted all this shit at the very start of the thread back in 2016, but we’ve all just wasted our time because the **** have got their own way. When you can only look backwards, you make the same mistakes as you’ve always done. History is full of people who look backwards and are full of their own limitations.

I vote (natch) we close this thread down. Nothing productive or positive will come of it.

You know the narrative in the X-Files, where the shadowy lot won’t kill off Mulder because it’ll make him a martyr and 57 other Mulders will pop up in his place? Well, that.

Indeed, one big thread for all the wise people to ignore is better than lots of new ones to skip past. Although we have one new one today anyway.

Erasmus is still on the table Matt, not great but nothings really changed so there’s still hope for it to continue.

@bikebouy – depressingly you are right.

Last week one of my brother in law’s was telling me that ‘there is a done deal for Brexit, it is agreed, it is a Good One’ and ‘It is great, we get to take back control and set our own laws’ and ‘the NHS will be better funded now we don’t send the money abroad’. This from someone who currently lives outside the UK, voted for brexit when he lived here, is married to my sister who was NHS nurse for 14 years, and is an ex-police officer who was angry at the cuts Theresa May inflicted on them and is from an immigrant family who have been welcomed into the UK…

The same day an uncle was telling me that Britain is ‘going down the pan because of all the immigrants and gays’. This from a Canadian by birth, South African by upbringing, working life in Saudi Arabia and Uganda, who lived in South Wales illegally for three years as he could not get residence and conspired to lie with his wife to gain university funding for his son (said she was single mum) and supported his son to go on Erasmus exchange and daughter to win a scholarship to study in the USA. He went on to say it was good we were ‘closing the border’ and able to ‘tighten up on the feeding trough of British pounds that the EU enjoy’.

Sadly @bikebouy saying that all many brexiteers care about is ‘we won’ and ‘we are out’. NOTHING else matters. This is the opportunity that the tories will use to maximise their own gain, while all the brexiteers are still cheering and not paying attention.

I wonder at what point will many realise the national economic and social pain, and personal cost, that Brexit and the Tories are about to unleash? Too many years down the line and after too much (foul) water has passed under the bridge it seems.

It’s nothing to do with naivety tj, I was countering your made up bigoted view of the future with a more reasonable prediction.

Id say it was just ignorance if you think that the current flow of goods, manufacturing components, services, data, people, etc between the UK & Canada & the EU are comparable then you are clueless

Erasmus is still on the table Matt

Sure?

OK the Lords could still block it, but we have already had an email from partners in Slovakia telling us that their National Agency is to cut all projects as of today. That includes one with us.

MPs have voted against New Clause 10 being read a second time, by 344 votes to 254.

This new clause would have required the Government to seek to negotiate continuing full membership of the EU’s Erasmus+ education and youth programme.

— UK House of Commons (@HouseofCommons) January 8, 2020

Yep I’m sure.

That to me reads like they are no longer REQUIRED to negotiate for full membership – but they still might do so.

exsee – on what basis are you sure given that the commons has voted against remaining in it?

+1 – can you explain your reasoning exsee?