EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Better pull my son out of his Paramedic Training then; he’ll be able to pick it up off Google pretty quickly.

Good example. My uncle did his entire career as a paramedic. He didn’t need a degree and didn’t end up tens of thousands in debt as a prerequisite to getting his job.

You can learn more in your free time in a few months on the internet than on most degrees. More of that is the solution.

Made me think of this

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/07/22/university-life-ofsted-investigation-sharp-decline-quality-graduates/

Don’t forget Cummings enduring love for the erg

Cummings has enduring love?

There was me thinking he was an unscrupulous psycho who cared about other people only as much as they were useful to him.

Good example. My uncle did his entire career as a paramedic. He didn’t need a degree and didn’t end up tens of thousands in debt as a prerequisite to getting his job.

Very good example as the health professions of all types (but most especially paramedics) has moved on quite a bit in the past 20 years.

The requirements now are very different from the time when I trained and the education and training more intensive and involved.

50 years ago they just had to carry folk on a stretcher to hospital but we ask a bit more of them these days, as we do nurses, OT’s, SALTs, Dieticians, Physios etc.

Very good example as the health professions of all types (but most especially paramedics) has moved on quite a bit in the past 20 years.

The requirements now are very different from the time when I trained and the education and training more intensive and involved.

50 years ago they just had to carry folk on a stretcher to hospital but we ask a bit more of them these days, as we do nurses, OT’s, SALTs, Dieticians, Physios etc.

Not sure how paramedics work. Do you pay to do a degree or is it day release and you don’t have to pay for the privilege of being trained to do your job?

Three year degree with time split between classroom learning and placements.

Classroom learning culminates in exams of different forms on a regular basis, which at his university have an 80% pass rate, and you’re off the course if you fail any twice. Plus you have to pass all your placements with signed evidence from the paramedics you work with in your portfolio.

Then he will spend 2 years employed on the ambulances before being finally and fully signed off.

Degree is the usual £9k per year job as other degrees plus his loans for living costs.

And a fair whack from us!!!

Do you think the uni component is time effective? Couldn’t the three years be condensed into a fraction of that with proper training courses?

My degree added up to all of about 500 hours a year.

He’s in pretty much all the time, it’s not a 2 hours a day course.

Lower immigration from within and outwith the EU.

1) Brexit will almost certainly lower EU immigration and vastly increase non-EU immigration. Brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.

2) We can already impose greater control on immigration and choose not to. We don’t need to leave the EU to do that.

Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body. I have to say that I do agree with them on this

1) As a controlling member of the EU we already help create those rules, the notion that an “outside body” is imposing anything on us that we don’t agree to or want is a myth. The EU is no more an outside body than Westminster is to Wales.

2) If we hope to trade with the EU27 post-brexit then we’ll still have to accept those rules, we just won’t have a say in making them any longer. Again, brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.

3) WTO = almost 300 other countries telling us what to do.

Less interference by lobbyists.

More accountability.

I have no idea what either of these are supposed to mean. Which lobbyists? What’s not accountable currently? Pithy soundbites and no substance, something something sovereignty something.

Your friends are in for a shock.

And the seeds of Johnson’s undoing are right here. Without immigration the economy will tank, and the NHS collapse, two things he’s promised to solve. He’s given himself a no-win situation. Obviously he thinks that british white people, forced by a squeeze on benefits will step in to fill the gap, but I think he may have underestimated their lack of skills and/or fecklessness.

I agree with Cougar … Boris doesn’t care nor does he have to.
Not enough teachers/nurses/<insert here> … well that’s what the people voted for…

That will take a decade or more, and really needs social transformation too. And ideally free university (whose policy was that again?) because the debt thing really puts people off a lot, even though it shouldn’t because the current system is not a bad fudge even if it’s not ideal.

It will take more than that, people will have to “do a Tebbit” … live in squats and send money home and see the kids at weekends.

I’m not convinced universities are the solution.

They aren’t the solution for everything, no. But I wasn’t talking about university education.

Having said that, if you want high skill economy then you need a lot of training and deep background in your subject. We need a culture of education, learning and development.

In my industry (IT) almost all employers stick a list of technologies on a CV and discount everyone who doesn’t have them. This is incredibly short sighted, because most skills are in fact transferrable and what you need is aptitude. It doesn’t matter if I haven’t used Maven – I can pick it up in a week or two (and yes, I am sore). No-one wants to invest. But this culture is due in no small way to the culture within the business. Offshoring has meant that big companies who need IT don’t keep people around, they don’t invest in building their own skills base locally. In other countries they do, and it pays off.

This wouldn’t take a generation to fix – a government could create incentives and you could pick up school leavers quite quickly in IT. But what needs to happen is kids need to aspire to do a high skilled job. They need to see themselves as programmers, engineers, chemists, designers etc. And that is harder to achieve.

Not unachieveable of course but it takes a government with a plan and the skill to put it through. And it doesn’t have to be left or right wing – investing in skills is vital and a fully compatible with either ideology.

would regularly be required to vote on things about which they had no understanding, and were given very little time to gain any understanding due to sheer volume. Article 13 is a good example, but there are loads of others, including one about invasive species – a regulation that apparently was pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others, yet was implemented throughout the EU.

Wow! This legislation take years or decades to come down the pipeline, is subject to consultation and committees (spells of my life I’ll never get back); countries, industries, parties and other movements all prepare position papers with which to lobby the legislators – if you turn up to the chamber one day and don’t know why you’re voting on Invasive Alien Species then you don’t deserve your pay or you are Nigel Farage.

What is it about Invasive Alien Species that is pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others? This is my thing so I am genuinely interested?

I’m not sure I could have learned medical physics online as easily as in the laboratory.

Or without guidance and study.

Online? Really?

Tampon Tax

As announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?

They aren’t the solution for everything, no. But I wasn’t talking about university education.

Having said that, if you want high skill economy then you need a lot of training and deep background in your subject. We need a culture of education, learning and development.

In my industry (IT) almost all employers stick a list of technologies on a CV and discount everyone who doesn’t have them. This is incredibly short sighted, because most skills are in fact transferrable and what you need is aptitude. It doesn’t matter if I haven’t used Maven – I can pick it up in a week or two (and yes, I am sore). No-one wants to invest. But this culture is due in no small way to the culture within the business. Offshoring has meant that big companies who need IT don’t keep people around, they don’t invest in building their own skills base locally. In other countries they do, and it pays off.

This wouldn’t take a generation to fix – a government could create incentives and you could pick up school leavers quite quickly in IT. But what needs to happen is kids need to aspire to do a high skilled job. They need to see themselves as programmers, engineers, chemists, designers etc. And that is harder to achieve.

Not unachieveable of course but it takes a government with a plan and the skill to put it through. And it doesn’t have to be left or right wing – investing in skills is vital and a fully compatible with either ideology.

You also need a culture of isolation and self sufficiency.
We need food we can’t produce ourselves… so we need to sell something outside the UK to buy food. We can to some extend supply our own technologists/scientists and engineers for UK PLC but how do we compete with India and China?

But what needs to happen is kids need to aspire to do a high skilled job. They need to see themselves as programmers, engineers, chemists, designers etc. And that is harder to achieve.

And this is what our pentapachyderm has arse-backwards.

We don’t have a home-grown skills shortage because we’re importing talent, rather we’re importing talent because there’s a skills shortage.

This is a huge problem right now in computer security. I’m part of a hacking security group which is actively encouraging young people to get into the industry via Universities and apprenticeship programmes. But it’ll be several years before we see the fruits from that.

As announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?

No strings attached?

Degree is the usual £9k per year job as other degrees plus his loans for living costs.

This, in a way, proves just how much Universities havellost their way. They are neither fish not foul. There really is no reason for a paramedic to go to Uni. A number of places in the work have what they call ‘ colleges ‘ – not the US college which is really Uni – that are really good at doing the practical and technical training. Nurses, Paramedics, IT etc. In fact I know quite a few University grads who then ent to college to really get the skills employers wanted.
Brexit might help solve this because when we are absolutely desperate for sikked workers, we might actually get innovative.

I’ll stick with my Uni educated Doc, thanks, not a Google U grad.

This is a huge problem right now in computer security. I’m part of a hacking security group which is actively encouraging young people to

That’s worldwide. 3 years ago you might have been able to attract skilled people from elsewhere to come and do it. Not since

Also believe China and Russia have solutions to that they’d like to try.

“We don’t need no education”

“Just learn it in on the job, innit, add in a few online tutorials in the evenings and… bish bash bosh… I mean, look at all the unproductive time Germans waste when they’re young, should be owt doing their bit for the national economy shouldn’t they.”

@ cromolyolly

I think my sons University Paramedic Course is fine; when he is fully qualified he will have spent 40 months in either the ambulances or health related units (he’s currently on a stroke unit learning something of that speciality) and 20 months in University being taught primarily by serving paramedics who share their time between teaching and practice.
The course was pretty much designed by EMAS to provide them with the paramedics they say they want and their involvement is active and relentless throughout training.

I think my sons University Paramedic Course is fine

I’m not suggesting it isn’t. Why is it at a Uni though? As I said, other places do pretty much exactly as you describe, including current and ex paramedics teaching and supervising at what are roughly technical colleges . They are cheaper and turn out top quality grads. But they aren Uni’s because they don’t need to be. I think that’s part of the problem.

But they aren Uni’s because they don’t need to be. I think that’s part of the problem.

That’s just the name though.

Why is it at a Uni though?

Why wouldn’t it be? If it were called a residential tech college would it make a difference?

Cougar….

We don’t have a home-grown skills shortage because we’re importing talent, rather we’re importing talent because there’s a skills shortage.

This is a huge problem right now in computer security. I’m part of a hacking security group which is actively encouraging young people to get into the industry via Universities and apprenticeship programmes. But it’ll be several years before we see the fruits from that.

We are important and offshoring because that is what clients want.
I’ve worked for clients where it’s an obsession in and of itself.
I kid not fixed price contract and we were supplying trained experts in a field doesn’t exist in India (yet*) out of profits but every weekly status meeting the client wanted “more offshore” and was obsessed with the offshore and landed ratio’s but wanted 15+ yrs experience in a VERY specific area.

I ended up having to create busy work for a whole offshore and landed team on top of doing the actual work.

*Very specific deep industry knowledge in a industry India haven’t had for more than 5yrs…

Quick reply. My wife is a dental hygienist which is now a uni course but wasn’t when she did the qualification. All well and good for her to have a career as a dental hygienist and she qualified just as knowledgeable and skilled as the current degree course graduates as alluded to above but……

If she wants to change career she doesn’t have a degree level qualification whereas the current graduates do as will dangerousbeans son. That’s the point of them being courses at university. So that the qualification has the same “level” as a degree in something and if you want to have a career with “graduate entry” in whatever, Your hygiene or paramedic qualification makes you a “graduate”

To illustrate the point. My wife wanted to do dentisty years ago but would have had to go and do a levels to get on the 5 year course despite having the equivalent knowledge of a specialist in one of the dental degree subjects. At the time Someone with a degree in any science could have skipped the first year of the dentistry degree as they had “demonstrated up to postgraduate levels of learning” even if that degree was in chemistry for example.

Carry on……….

That’s more to do with crapness rather than specifically being a university. That could be changed.

True.

I think it’s to do with the hangover from times past of what a degree counted for against a vocational qualification. It’s not right but that’s how it currently is

No deal it is…
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/16/boris-johnson-will-amend-brexit-bill-to-outlaw-extension

What is it about Invasive Alien Species that is pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others? This is my thing so I am genuinely interested?

Can’t recall the exact details to be honest, but he’s always ranting on about it when he’s trying to justify Brexit. It was some sort of plant and involved ponds IIRC, but he seemed to have a good case.

I think it’s very hard to argue with the fact that too much is decided at the EU level. Article 13 is a prime example.

JP

The no deal thing officially in legislation?? Why?? Probably just a smoke screen and they will have no deal in name only instead of Brexit in name only

Member
Tampon Tax

As announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?

Nah last Tory Manifesto

From freeports to free trade deals, from abolishing the cruel live shipment of animals to cutting VAT on tampons, we in the UK will be able to remain close to our European friends and partners; but where we choose, we will be able to do things differently and better.

I think / hope the “no deal” headline is just hyperbole for clicks.

As above it’s purpose is two-fold, 1) to ensure May’s deal passes promptly, although with the numbers he’s got there’s no reason why it wouldn’t 2) to look the hard man to the Brexiteers.

He wants to be Churchill / Thatcher, but he acts Trump.

Preparing for no deal, or a “bare bones FTA” on goods only…

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/1002/1080715-interconnector-electricity/

The Government has secured more than half a billion euro in grants from the European Commission to connect Ireland’s electricity network to France.

The Celtic Interconnector will be underwater with 700 megawatts capacity and will mean Ireland has guaranteed access to the European Union’s internal energy market.

…

Ireland is currently connected to the EU energy market through the UK but once Brexit happens, Ireland will have no such connection. However, the interconnector will ensure access to the EU market.

Will we be laying cables to the USA?

2) to look the hard man to the Brexiteers.

I reckon 2 then he’ll stitch em up when it gets hard.

It’s to focus our attention on the dates, not the cost… remember, it’s about “getting it done” not looking at the burden they know it will place on us.

Boris Johnson promises (though not clear why) nation would save £1bn a month from leaving the EU

HMRC says costs to business of just filling in customs forms is £1.25bn a month https://t.co/VjZYoceXB8

— Chris Giles (@ChrisGiles_) October 7, 2019

What about the benefits – well clearly there is scope for UK – ROW trade agreements and regulatory flexibility and more so under Johnson's harder Brexit.

But government has looked and looked and it can't make the numbers for the benefits look big pic.twitter.com/BcfKUNQF2C

— Chris Giles (@ChrisGiles_) October 11, 2019

What is it about Invasive Alien Species that is pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others? This is my thing so I am genuinely interested?

Can’t recall the exact details to be honest, but he’s always ranting on about it when he’s trying to justify Brexit. It was some sort of plant and involved ponds IIRC, but he seemed to have a good case.

I think it’s very hard to argue with the fact that too much is decided at the EU level.

I think it’d be harder to argue that an approach to managing, say, Invasive Alien Species should not be addressed a continent level.

Member
Tampon Tax

As announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?

Nah last Tory Manifesto

March 2016 GO met with EU and came back and said he could abolish the TT, then other stuff took over the agenda. It’s in the newspapers from that time.

Bill to rule out extension

No deal it is then.

Workers rights under threat too (surprise surprise). Removal of a clause preventing “non-regression” on workers’ rights after Brexit.

Will we be laying cables to the USA?

The only cable that matters was laid on 23rd June 2016.