EU Referendum – are you in or out?

The only option is to jump on board and try to make it work.

Since 2016, 16+ million people have been told to shut up and get over it in the name of “democracy.” What on earth makes you think anyone will listen to us now?

Indeed, after all your prattle for the last two thousand pages complaining about remainers belittling leavers, why the hell would you even remotely think that we’re just going to go “oh, all right then” after being treated as an irrelevance at best since then? You cry “what did you expect?” well, right back at you sunbeam, what do you expect? You can’t have it both ways.

Elsewhere on the Internet the other day someone told me to go and **** my mother, this is presumably the sort of persuasive discourse you expect will win us over to start getting behind? We may reap what we sow but that cuts both ways I’m afraid. Sorry.

This relatively new narrative – one I predicted years ago – that it’s somehow all leavers’ fault for not getting behind brexit is weapons-grade bullshit and it makes me absolutely **** incandescent. Aside from the fact that it wouldn’t have magically made the impossible possible, it’s simply not our monkey. You want it, you work it out.

You’re basically asking, will there be free movement, unlikely

There won’t be reciprocal free movement, no. But the EU can let in whoever they want via whatever scheme they can dream up.

molgrips

There won’t be reciprocal free movement, no. But the EU can let in whoever they want via whatever scheme they can dream up.

Wasn’t there a move by the EU to legislate to allow UK citizens who wanted to remain EU citizens to apply to retain EU citizenship?

Haven’t seen anything on it for a couple of years though.

I’ll certainly be applying if they do that.

But the EU can let in whoever they want via whatever scheme they can dream up.

Individual countries control who can live and work in them from outside the EEA/FoM area, no?

Wasn’t there a move by the EU to legislate to allow UK citizens who wanted to remain EU citizens to apply to retain EU citizenship?

Haven’t seen anything on it for a couple of years though.

There was – it went quiet, likely because it would have affected negotiations. I bet it resurfaces after the deal’s done though.

Individual countries control who can live and work in them from outside the EEA/FoM area, no?

Ah yes they can, good point, but if the EU comes up with an associate membership scheme then it would apply everywhere I guess.

The only option is to jump on board and try to make it work. If it fails it needs to be a collective failure, and equally if a success, then a collective success.

Of course, it makes it a lot easier to say that if it is what you secretly wanted all along.

Now that really is my last post on a politics thread.

But I could not let that one pass from dazh of all people. The bare faced cynicism behind that line, from someone who has been a fake remainer all along just could not go uncommented. Utterly **** outrageous.

Wasn’t there a move by the EU to legislate to allow UK citizens who wanted to remain EU citizens to apply to retain EU citizenship?

Maybe if you give back Gibralta. 😉

I’ve been at the beers tonight, so I’m probably way off, but it’s finally ‘clicked’ why we lost in 2016 and why we have failed to reverse the result since.

Yeah there’s the horrible, criminal unfairness of the argument – the tiny number of people who’ll benefit hugely from it are so wealthy and powerful that they can control the big parts of the media and sadly this came at a time when most people have filtered their lives to only ever hear the things they want to hear.

But more than that, Brexit was a contest between head and heart, logic and emotion.

Remainers look at the economic benefits, the freedoms and protections and accepted the reduction in Sovereignty, in fact a lot of us aren’t very patriotic. I’m not I’ve no real ‘pride’ in being British, it’s pure accident of birth. I like living here, but I don’t care if the people I live near were born on this island or any other, I don’t care if they don’t watch ‘only fools’ at Xmas or drink Tea.

So when we were having a national debate about, fighting the referendum or trying to undo the result, because let’s be honest with ourselves that’s what we were trying to do, we argued on those terms. We shouted about the economic pitfalls, the loss of freedoms within the EU and the potential loss of rights and freedoms at home afforded to us by being EU citizens.

The problem was we weren’t listening – leavers didn’t care about those things, well not as much as they cared about other things. They care about Britishness, they believe in borders and sovereignty. There was a former CIA agent speaking about Brexit recently, the Americans, even the left leaning (from their point of view) ones are very patriotic. A huge proportion of them really and without question believe they live in the greatest country on earth, to say otherwise is a great insult to them. This CIA man, who was very patriotic said “Britain used to control 80% of the known world, they don’t want to be ruled by another nation” and however much you can debate the how’s and whys of that, for lots of leavers it’s true.

We lost and lost again, not because we were wrong about the things we care about, but because we dismissed the opinions of people on the other side.

Remainers and not just us jabbering away on here when we should probably be working but the people we chose to fight the remain cause we often very rude to Leavers, but worse we’re didn’t even think we were. Yeah JRM is a prick who’s in it to short the U.K. to make millions and Farage is a populist in it for ego – but we often dismiss leavers as being stupid, misinformed, fools who were duped by the Farages and JRMs of the world, but it’s not true they are ready and willing to accept the thing we fear for greater control of their lives.

When they shouted about unelected Eurocrats we should have been arguing about how they’re not, but mostly we shouted about trade deals

When they shouted about immigration we should have been arguing about the benefits of migrants from the EU and confirming that non-EU migrants gain no benefit here from us being in the EU but we argued for freedom of movement for us.

There’s other arguments of course and it’s not like the Leave argument was being wonderfully polite and open to new ideas either, but it was our job to ‘sell’ our point of view to them, Leave won.

Staunch remainers, like me, are partly to blame for Boris and his landslide, we are a lot of the reason why Leavers are so entrenched in their position and willing to accept anything that Boris wants to leave. Because we’ve never accepted the referendum result – instead of calling for a close relationship with theEU and the things we care about protected we refuse to accept their points were valid, called them stupid and dismissed them as fools duped by arseholes.

Hindsight is great, but we are in part the artitect of our own hard Brexit and Boris government.

The same thing is happening now, Twitter is full of people posting that the election wasn’t fair and the Tories should be a minority government because they got less than 50% of the popular vote or because 30% of people didn’t vote. It’s sour grapes, because when Farage and UKIP wanted PR we didn’t want it.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others, we’re supposed to the the open minded ones after all! From the Socialists who treat every they disagree with as the enemy to the hardliner Remainers who refuses to accept anything but full EU membership we need to change.

Remainers look at the economic benefits, the freedoms and protections and accepted the reduction in Sovereignty,

I would like to think Remainers acknowledged there was no loss of sovereignty. But yes, you are right, the leave campaign was heavily based on taking back control from Brussels which the leaves bought into readily.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others

Your journey to the right of centre has begun.

Good post p-jay.

I would like to think Remainers acknowledged there was no loss of sovereignty. But yes, you are right, the leave campaign was heavily based on taking back control from Brussels which the leaves bought into readily.

Fundamentally it’s stuff like that, that killed us. As far as Leave are concerned the EU says jump and Westminster says “how high”. Thatcher always gave the impression she was in a constant battle with them which kept eurosceptics appeased if not happy, Blair (who I’m a fan of, despite the war, not because of it) would often gleefully go along with them in our best interests or worse use them as an excuse to pass unpopular laws. Maybe he saw it as a way to destabilise the Tories who were usually in a civil war over the EU.

Remainers know we have a Veto on everything and know we had a huge say in the EU, Leavers know that despite those things we will, even occasionally have to accept things we’d rather not either for the greater good or just to keep the others happy. By saying we have absolute sovereignty and they’re wrong, we’re causing distrust and even hatred.

Brexit divided the country between the rational and the emotional. And it’s really easy to appeal to people’s emotions if you’re unscrupolous.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others

Your journey to the right of centre has begun.

I’ve learned recently that intolerance seems to be a prerequisite of being Left Wing, I guess I’ve always been a Centrist.

I don’t believe in “with us, or against us” anymore

I think you are right P-Jay. One of my sisters lives in the USA and is married to an American bloke. I remember just after Trump got elected he posted some insult or other against the orange weapon and one of his pals, who did not vote Republican chastised him and basically told him that now Trump was president he couldn’t speak about him in negative term. It shocked me and has stuck in my mind.

I, like you have no real pride in being British. I like being a Yorkshire man, feel lucky to have been brought up where I was and have no desire to move. I expect to be able to travel around the world and enjoy it so am happy for every other nationality to do the same. I like meeting and living with all different groups and really don’t have a strong feeling of my ‘group’.

I don’t think I will ever understand people who think like the American chap above or those who think being British is a badge of honour. This means I will never properly understand those who voted leave without a reasoned argument.

I voted remain
Wanted a 2nd referendum
Voted labour twice

At this point I accept the result. Boris campaigned with his deal front and centre, and in spite of it being a terrible deal in lots of ways, he won by a landslide.

The people voted on his deal, not some vague question. That was my biggest issue with the 2016 ref.

But until I come across a single benefit or improvement to people’s lives as a result of Brexit, I reserve the right to moan about it, forever.

I also politely ask everyone who voted for Boris to hold him to his promises. How many hospitals are we getting?

The people voted on his deal

Mate, it was a general election. It’s not the same as a referendum.

one of his pals, who did not vote Republican chastised him and basically told him that now Trump was president he couldn’t speak about him in negative term

Cultural difference. The President is also the head of state and has a symbolic as well as executive role – which is different to many other countries. So he’s the figurehead of the country and that’s why many people think that you have to respect him whatever. In many ways the Queen performs a useful function – meeting dignitaries, cutting ribbons, drawing in the tourists and all that waffle, whilst being apolitical.

If you want to go down that line then the Queen is untouchable but the Tories are her natural foot soldiers so the obvious choice to lead if you are nationalistic. Brexit leavers, even the labour ones fell in to line.

Mate, it was a general election. It’s not the same as a referendum.

Yes thanks for pointing that out 😉

It was the central policy of the conservative campaign and they won.

I voted remain
Wanted a 2nd referendum
Voted labour twice

Agreed,

This weeks election was the 2nd ref in all but name and we lost, maybe it was because of Corbyn and all that came with him, but ffs Bolsover went Tory, decades of continuous Labour control overturned because we got our argument so wrong.

All those Remainers who left their party over Brexit, all lost.

It was the central policy of the conservative campaign and they won.

That accounts for some of the votes but no-one knows how many. Polling data on leave/remain was markedly different from the GE. Plenty of leave areas still voted Labour. So whilst Brexit was a factor, it was one of many.

The problem was we weren’t listening – leavers didn’t care about those things, well not as much as they cared about other things. They care about Britishness, they believe in borders and sovereignty. There was a former CIA agent speaking about Brexit recently, the Americans, even the left leaning (from their point of view) ones are very patriotic. A huge proportion of them really and without question believe they live in the greatest country on earth, to say otherwise is a great insult to them. This CIA man, who was very patriotic said “Britain used to control 80% of the known world, they don’t want to be ruled by another nation” and however much you can debate the how’s and whys of that, for lots of leavers it’s true.

Those people are stupid and misinformed.

But they won’t learn by us telling them that.

They will slowly learn over the course of a number of decades, that we aren’t better than the rest of the world and special because we controlled 80 percent of the known world, when the UK drifts into obscurity. Much as it took a couple of decades for the humiliation of defeat to really cause introspection in Germany and Japan.

There were a bunch of aging gammons in and around greater Birmingham on tv, who were talking about voting conservative and leave because they used to be good at manufacturing. Yes we were, when we were pinching the strategic materials from the rest of the world. Now our former empire have effective controls of their own economies, import costs have gone up so we can no longer deindustrialise brown people.

It doesn’t dawn on them that it’s never coming back. Ever.

By the time they realise, most of them will be dead anyway and the war will have passed from living and even verbal memory.

**** em, isn’t going to affect me more than the 2008 financial crisis did in terms of a financial hit to my pocket – so I’m resigned to being amused by the fact they can enjoy their little fantasy like pigs in shit, whilst knowing that their lives aren’t going to get any better.

Just because an almost majority of voters are stupid enough to vote for something it does not make it a good thing.

indeed, **** em

It was the central policy of the conservative campaign and they won.

Absolutely. A large minority of voters backed that party that had that central policy. Enough to put them in power. They can get on with it now. It doesn’t mean that the majority of people back that policy or that party though does it.

I agree with a lot of P-Jay’s analysis. Just one objection, I’m in favour of proportional representation and on the basis of contributions to this forum I think most remainers here are too. It’s one of the points I agree with Farage on, one of not many, but when I agree with him I’m not going to change my view just because he says the same.

Boris has a few problems….

How does he get an MP who was a mental health care assistant to vote for anything that has a negative impact on poor people (which is pretty much most traditional Tory policy- not the current lies he is peddling)

How is he going to get his new Labour light MPs to support a hard brexit that may impact jobs in their constituency.

The new polital fight for the soul of this country will be ERG v New Conservatives….

As ever who will Boris chuck under the bus come December 2020?

iffoverload

Member
Just because an almost majority of voters are stupid enough to vote for something it does not make it a good thing.

Perfect example: Trump

How is he going to get his new Labour light MPs to support a hard brexit that may impact jobs in their constituency.

Well, this is an interesting point. As I said before several commentators are saying that he is actually a liberal rather than a hard right – he just pretended to be a right wing loonie to get the hard right onside when he needed them.

Everyone knows you need the centre ground in politics to keep winning, and it’s now wide open for him to move into. If he screws the newly Tory constituencies they won’t waste any time in chucking him out – and he knows this. He could consolidate Tory rule for a decade, Blair style.

But if he becomes a Blairite, then I’ll have far less to complain about. So let’s wait and see.

“New Conservatives” lets see how long Boris can keep the ERG in check….

It’s a lefty thing.

So whilst Brexit was a factor, it was one of many.

It was the key factor in the election. Labour didn’t seem to realise this. It was a danger, and it was now. Labour biffing on about free BB in 11 years was irrelevant; this was a ‘now’ policy.

Even Remainers voted for Boris because they want an end to the whole mess, not to drag it out for another 3 years. The view seems to be ‘just get it done, and then let’s see what’s next’

It’s a lefty thing.

I’m a lefty. Am I nasty?

Everyone knows you need the centre ground in politics to keep winnin

This is where Grandad and his cronies went so wrong. Labour are toast until they move away from their current policies.

The whole Labour failure was the triple whammy of poor national policies, no Brexit policy worthy of note and an unconvincing leader (as politely as I can put it!).

taxi25

Member
Good post p-jay.

+1

I’ve been at the beers tonight, so I’m probably way off, but it’s finally ‘clicked’ why we lost in 2016 and why we have failed to reverse the result since.
…
But more than that, Brexit was a contest between head and heart, logic and emotion.

Perfectly corrolated by

Does he really think anyone will read such long silly posts?

Labour should have released their manifesto in the form of a picture book, maybe with some free red, white and blue crayons. They’d have walked it.

Labour’s manifesto was very wordy, Conservatives was “get brexit done.” Not hard to see why people who don’t like reading things went for the latter in droves.

I hate to keep quoting him, but Farage said during the election night coverage that Johnson would be less beholden to the ERG now and is much more likely to seek a better long term deal with Europe. He was also pretty sure there would be an extension of the negotiating period. Parties within parties…

The bare faced cynicism behind that line, from someone who has been a fake remainer all along just could not go uncommented. Utterly **** outrageous.

Danny WTH are you going on about? I never said remainers should suddenly begin agreeing with brexit, just that they should accept defeat. The comment about jumping on board was about the labour party, in that until they’ve demonstrated that they’ve stopped trying to frustrate brexit, those leave voters in northern seats will never come back. Stop reading what you want to read and actually respond to the point being made.

And still a remainer btw, but it’s all a bit pointless now isn’t it? Until we stop with the leaver/remainer schism nothing will improve. Time to move on.

Interesting thoughts P-jay, I strongly believe some of the sentiment of your post.
Listening and respecting an opinion is a difficult thing to do and obviously gets harder the further apart you both are, I do think the modern way is to shout down and ridicule the opposing view which is made much easier by the quick punchline social media access. So so many make such noise about how they have the answers but can’t see they are also a part of the problem.
Political bigotry is well out of control on here and completely accepted as the norm, why?

I read this quote on the BBC earlier today and thought of stw political threads

Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.

I hate to keep quoting him, but Farage said during the election night coverage that Johnson would be less beholden to the ERG now and is much more likely to seek a better long term deal with Europe. He was also pretty sure there would be an extension of the negotiating period. Parties within parties…

I don’t think Boris really cares about Brexit it’s just been a great McGuffin that has allowed him to be PM.

As you say he’s not beholden to anyone now so a quick Brino would give him the Brexit done and not trash the country erg can huff an puff as much as they like.

IMHO Boris likes being PM more than he likes Brexit.

Leavers are now in the same position now as remainers they can’t dictate the type of leave.

Don’t forget Cummings enduring love for the erg.

Yeah. Boris only cares about power, so he’ll say whatever he needs to to secure it. That was Brexit, but after that it’ll be spending money on the North. It might work out ok. Basically you can get anything you want if you can just convince him there’s votes in it.

How many hospitals are we getting?

Twelvety garden bridges brought to you by Carillion and G4S in northern cities as thanks!