Just looking at Somerset Capital Management’s figures, found this graph

When was the referendum again?

For the far left to rise and build it’s socialist utopia with exceptional tractor production it needs to come from the ashes of what went before, a lot of people would need to loose everything. The pain will have to make the socialist/communist approach look like a better option where we pool our rats rather than stockpile them for winter.

I am not a ‘member’ of the far left, so I cannot speak for anyone else. But, my politics concur with a socialist view. There isn’t room in this thread to argue about the above and I’m not sure I’m capable. However, whilst many would need to give up a lot of what they have, I would argue many of those things do not assure a happy and meaningful life. Also, the vast majority of people can never have these things and our luxuries are dependent on the their ‘suffering’.

A different thread needed?

In my younger years I used to read and subscribe to Living Marxism … read up on how that transformed into LM and then Spiked, and how the staff went on to hide behind names like “the institute for ideas” … a perfect example of how a certain kind of left wing ideology can so seemlessly end up supporting the dangerous hard right ideas putting everything at risk. And our media still lap it up… it is genuinely concerning… and a reminder that just because someone is “left wing” does not mean they have well developed empathy or concern for the lives of “ordinary” people.

I know a pretty socialist guy who does not like the EU at all. But he voted remain because he was intelligent enough to see that we currently need what it offers and leaving would be a serious problem.

Possibly a different thread but orchestrating a massive collapse would be the way to get through policies as necessity rather than as a choice, it would be my conclusion as to why your friend wants a no deal brexit.
In order to get to a point we would need to break down concepts of ownership and capitalism based ideas like starting a business for you not the state.

Reading books on change like lean thinking where people try and go for big corporate cultural change it only really happens when the business is on it’s knees, they make the big choices when the options are dire. You can make choices that are would have been really unpopular when the alternative is much worse.

Just looking at Somerset Capital Management’s figures, found this graph

Channel 4's Dispatches @C4Dispatches claimed this week that @Jacob_Rees_Mogg made £7m from Brexit. Mr Mogg wouldn't answer their allegation but luckily I caught up with him and let him set the record straight. (I'm nice like that aren't I?) pic.twitter.com/NfYnr85n1u

— Steve Bray #NotGoingAway (@snb19692) March 14, 2019

I know a pretty socialist guy who does not like the EU at all. But he voted remain because he was intelligent enough to see that we currently need what it offers and leaving would be a serious problem.

Pretty much same as me (although I am indifferent to EU rather than not liking it)

There are a couople of Lexiteers who drink in my local. Two nice blokes. I’ve spoke to them at great length and their attiudes to Brexit absolutely mystifies me

Both retired, both very left wing. They hate the Tories and the EU in equal measure. They seem to view them as both being the same. They are both capitalist clubs which use their power to surpress the rights of the workers. They share the Corbyn view that once free of the EU they can nationalise everythign and create a socialist utopia. They’re both supporters of a hard No Deal/Leave means Leave Brexit

Also: theres an undercurrent of crude, flag-waving nationalism. Don’t think that is exclusive domain of the right. It really isnt. If you travel far enough to either extreme, you meet yourself coming back

I know a pretty socialist guy who does not like the EU at all. But he voted remain because he was intelligent enough to see that we currently need what it offers and leaving would be a serious problem.

I don’t like how Westminster is operating, and who is working for us there… in a vote more than 50% of voters could vote for “change” … but I’m not going to insist we tear up what we currently have and replace it either with “anything” or “nothing”… I want a clear plan to get behind. This how I see the position of people who “don’t like the EU”, but also don’t think we should Leave now, seeing what we can see in front of us. A logical position, whether you consider yourself left or right wing (or neither).

However, whilst many would need to give up a lot of what they have, I would argue many of those things do not assure a happy and meaningful life.

Venezuelans and ex socialist utopias everywhere disagree.

Reading books on change like lean thinking where people try and go for big corporate cultural change it only really happens when the business is on it’s knees, they make the big choices when the options are dire. You can make choices that are would have been really unpopular when the alternative is much worse.

But you can never guarantee what comes after the collapse and revolution – see Napoleon, Mao, Stalin etc. People who want drastic change overnight are either idiots or suffering from psychological splitting.

Venezuelans and ex socialist utopias everywhere disagree.

I thought the point was that your own personal wealth and position is only one aspect… what is happening for everyone else around you also matters. More equal societies are happier than those with absolute higher wealth that is concentrated and held by a small proportion of the population. A large drop, or even stagnation, always hurts those at the bottom most though.

But you can never guarantee what comes after the collapse and revolution

Looking at history, it’s normally a deepening of the problem, followed by the destruction of individual liberties. And then maybe a war to build up nationalised pride as a destraction.

—————

Anyway… the EU… helps us to be more prosperous as countries, increase our individual freedoms and rights, redistributes wealth (to regions)… it’s down to OUR national governments to go further as regards using tax and spend to redistribute wealth for individuals, and the EU does not stop them.

But you can never guarantee what comes after the collapse and revolution – see Napoleon, Mao, Stalin etc. People who want drastic change overnight are either idiots or suffering from psychological splitting.

Sorry forgot to add the blindingly obvious point on the end.

More equal societies at happier than those with absolute higher wealth that is concentrated and held by a small proportion of the population.

They are – but it wasn’t a cheap shot, we aren’t talking about Scandinavian countries are we? They didn’t do equality overnight by making everyone so poor that they might vote far left did they?

Oh yes, that’s right – they did gradual change within the the EU!

Ooops.

Lexiters are more intellectually bankrupt and deranged than ERG/Ukiper types.

And as the vote and march go on today
A good reminder

37% of the electorate voted for this, 27% of people if you include those who were not registered in some way.
The Petition is rolling along at 4.2 Million so far – that would be 4.2 million people who are 100% opposed to any kind of Brexit, that is a serious number for some MP’s it starts to make a complete mockery of May’s betrayal arguments.

Well at least he didn’t blame immigration.

I quickly edited out the “cheap shot” comment @raybanwomble, as despite your slightly aggravating way of putting it, I agree with your point entirely.

To a point this debate has shows that ideology trumps common sense and intelligence

This is definitely it. He’s postgraduate qualified and works at a level you’d expect for reasonable career progression within the civil service, so he’s clearly not an idiot. Indeed, aside from the odd chunter about The Falklands (or Las Malvinas as he likes to call them) we usually agree on political topics. But when it comes to brexit he’s as abusive and unhinged as your average Daily Mail commenter.

Having said all that, he’s clearly an animal more equal than others when it comes to his communism hobby: his first home was an ex-council house (he didn’t see the irony in this), and his new 5-bedroom pad was mostly paid for by his in-laws.

Mind you, he also hates the English yet managed to marry an English wife and move there from Wales 10 years ago. So I guess “as I say, not as I do” runs quite strong 😂

I think I’ve picked my Sat night film, something way less bolloxed than our current situation 🙂

https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeoplesVoteMarch?src=tren&data_id=tweet%3A1109437890797469696

The March is off and a lot of people are there

The whole socialists are automatically Lexiters thing is a not particularly accurate in my experience. I spend a lot of time with people on the left of politics from the most centerist of social democrats to the real hardcore socialists and very few are pro-Brexit.

One of my most ardent socialist friends reserves his strongest criticisms for advocates of Brexit – using language that would even raise a few eyebrows on this thread and it’s the only time you’ll hear criticism of Corbyn!

There are a few dyed in the wool old Bennites who still see the EU as a free market fundamentalist construct but they are few and far between – even amongst leftwing academics.

If the polls are to be believed you could barely take a cross section of the electorate that is more anti-Brexit than Labour party membership.

If you cant make it to the march send an email.

https://email.number10.gov.uk/

<div class=”pages_post_communicate”>
<h2 id=”ctl00_ContentPlaceHolderMain_contactBodyHeading” class=”page_title_border”></h2>
</div>

The whole socialists are automatically Lexiters thing

No one has said this at any point, have they? Every socialist I know is strongly anti Brexit. Those that are super pleased generally with Corbyn and the path he has the party on are the most vocally anti Brexit, including local councillors.

If the polls are to be believed you could barely take a cross section of the electorate that is more anti-Brexit than Labour party membership.

Yet the leadership, such as it is, refuses to acknowledge this. I see that Corbyn has organised a Labour Local Government event in Morcombe today* and hasn’t even acknowledged the March in London. Says it all really

* I know this because my neighbour, a lifelong Labour member, and son of a Manchester Labour councillor, has just had a massive rant about it, and declared it the last straw, he’s now leaving the labour party

I consider myself left or centre-left depending on if we are talking about my ideal situation or one that would actually stand a chance of getting votes in the UK. However I’m pro-EU because I think having a supra-national organisation to legislate on things like environmental standards is crucial. We will not make significant progress towards mitigating environmental impact as long as governments are tempted to slash regulation to increase profit or grab votes.

Le Petit Fromage tells 200 Leave means Leave marchers that they are in the majority! Honestly you couldn’t make it up.

Spot the difference:

Maybe he’ll do a Trump and claim his audience was, in fact, actually much bigger. Like… the BIGGEST EVER. And definitely not just a couple of hundred angry gammons

Maybe he’ll do a Trump and claim his audience was, in fact, actually much bigger. Like… the BIGGEST EVER. And definitely not just a couple of hundred angry gammons

The picture speaks for itself, does it not? Is there any need to call the people there gammons?
It could be argued that you’re less likely to come out and protest when you’re winning. Also, if the people marching to revoke Brexit had marched before the referendum we may not be where we are now.

NB for clarification I voted remain and would happily see us revoke.

gauss1777

Member

It could be argued that you’re less likely to come out and protest when you’re winning.

Maybe, but nobody’s winning right now.

if the people marching to revoke Brexit had marched before the referendum we may not be where we are now.

I don’t think many people, myself included, ever thought the referendum result would be for leave.
I had to do a double take when I saw the news the following morning…

if the people marching to revoke Brexit had marched before the referendum we may not be where we are now.

I don’t think many people, myself included, ever thought the referendum result would be for leave.
I had to do a double take when I saw the news the following morning…

I hear what you are saying, but the reamain campaign was incredibly poor and the writing was on the wall. A lot of us put too much faith in a collective rationality/sense.

A lot of us put too much faith in a collective rationality/sense.

And playing by the rules….

Great to see so many out there today, estimated at 1 million people with the petition edging towards 4.5m it’s a lot of people making their voices heard. I also took the opportunity to send the email to Number 10 from ZippyKona’s link – https://email.number10.gov.uk/
I thought it safer to address it to the PM rather than name her just in case – reports are an orderly transition committee is in operation – probably less organised and more factional than the one in the trailer above.

1M is amazing and some great speeches as well

and this gave me t’ lols

Well that was a nice stroll thru London!

Was very jolly, managed to lose everyone I went with, but made a load of new friends too.

Was great to see so many young & old, and people from all across the country. In a train heading to Crewe, loads of marchers with northern accents, nice to get out of my remainer down south bubble.

Special shout-out to the depressingly skillful anti-knife crime kids on bikes too.

This is brilliant:

ttps://news.sky.com/video/no-more-mr-nice-guy-nigel-farage-fumes-over-brexit-11673425

Anyone think that the glorious leader sounds just like Lewis Prothero from V for Vendetta?

Big weekend plans?
Why not join us on the #LabourDoorstep tomorrow?
Find an event near you 👇 #RebuildingBritainhttps://t.co/GqpBs52FR1

— The Labour Party (@UKLabour) March 22, 2019

Worth a read of the replies….

Worth a read of the replies….

Just had a quick scroll through.. Oooph.. Lol!

Big weekend plans?

It’s like Corbyn has now upped his game to actively trolling the Labour anti-Brexit membership.

BBC news have just done their usual incomprehensible ‘balance’ thing where they gave Farage addressing 200 gammons the same amount of coverage as a million people marching through London

Some pace is being picked up here….
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/23/calls-grow-for-public-inquiry-into-brexit

Calls for a public inquiry into Brexit are mounting among diplomats, business figures, peers and MPs, amid claims that the civil service is already planning for a future investigation into how it has been handled.

The decision to call the referendum, the red lines drawn up by Theresa May and Britain’s negotiating strategy are all issues that senior figures would like to be examined.

Bob Kerslake, the former head of the civil service, said an inquiry was needed into “the biggest humiliation since Suez, certainly since the IMF crisis [in 1976]”. The cross-party peer said he believed the civil service “is both expecting and preparing for this”.

“We do need to understand how on earth we ended up where we have and it probably needs to go back to the decisions around holding a referendum and the way the question was framed,” he said. “It would need to be a public inquiry, probably judge-led.”

Peter Ricketts, the former national security adviser and former head civil servant in the Foreign Office, cited the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war. “Chilcot took a long time, but it was cathartic,” he said. “The report was widely seen to have done the job and I think you can say the British system is better for it. I think the handling of Brexit has been such a failure of the process of government, with such wide ramifications, that there needs to be a searching public inquiry.

“What advice was given to ministers? Was it taken? Did the processes of collective cabinet decision-taking work? Were the right skills available, for example on no-deal planning and all the costs involved? They are all legitimate questions for an inquiry. It should have the powers of a judicial inquiry.”

One senior Tory peer said: “We want our Chilcot.”

Some people may wish to examine their own exit strategies at this point. Nothing like the threat of an inquiry to sharpen the record keeping and throwing people to the baying crowd 🙂

Grayling’s going down.

He’s been groomed as the face of Brexit failure.

Hypothetically, if there were a second referendum and remain won the vote, obviously a huge sigh of relief all round from those who never wanted to leave. The economy would stabilise and the status quo would be restored.
However, what would be the fallout from the result of the first referendum never having never been implemented? Democracy seemingly a concept that can be either ignored or implemented. The seriousness of what this would mean and how the population might react could dwarf any of the problems that leaving might entail.

Mike – Andrew Rawnsley has been saying for a while that certain ministers and former ministers behaviour has been with half an eye on what they assume will be the inevitable ‘Chilcott’ style public inquiry in the aftermath of this shitstorm

Dominic Raab soiling himself and running away, having been Brexit minister for all of ten minutes, being the prime example