I hope I’m wrong but after seeing how long it took Labour to sort out their policy on antisemitism,I doubt they could get themselves in a position to do something constructive about Brexit before the deadline.

johnners – no I am not.  Its clear  in its aims and limitations. The party cannot be tied to a single tightly defined position at this point but a needed they need to have a direction to head in and this provides it.

You need to read a fair amount to get thru the obvious bias in the reporting and look at what the players are actually saying.

Edit – remeber they have to keep a badly divided party from breaking out into civil war.  You have the full range – from Hoey who wants a hard leave to ardent pro europeans who want the UK to regain its central place in the EU

They also have to protect against being labelled as “ignoring the will of the people” and I understand the reservations about another referendum ( shared by the SNP) even tho I think it wrong

The panic is obvious in the Tory Party, all sides of the conservatives are backed into a corner regardless of which side of the Brexit fence they sit on.

May has already folded (a busted flush maybe) the collective Tory view has been that the EU in some shape or form would “adjust” the four freedoms…..

The Tory mistake has been that they believe that they are the only political organisation that has dogma.

The EU risk of compromise on the four freedoms far outweighs the loss of the UK, they have stuck to their position from day one.

So all that remains (no pun intended) is the March outcome, there is really only one option left to all the Tories- Hard Brexit.

So what do us mere mortals do…. dig for victory, share bath water, max out the plastic? Looks like we are going to see.

The jobs ****ed, this is kharma on a national scale maybe global. Time to sit on the porch with a shotgun and a cigar. At least it will be interesting.

“The meeting was very careful not to define the question, because we don’t know if we’re dealing with a deal or no deal – but equally, it was not ruling anything out, and the words ‘on the deal’ were removed, to emphasise the openness of that question,” he said. ( Starmer)

“Certainly, there was no ruling out of anything, and no ruling out of remain as an option. That was clearly the mood of the room, and in fact that’s reflected in the motion.”

McDonnell later sought to clarify his remarks, saying: “Keir is right. We are keeping all the options on the table.” But he has repeatedly stressed the risks of a new vote, saying it could embolden the far right.

So thats pretty clear to me.

1:we want an election

2: If we don’t get one we want a second referendum and nothing is ruled in or out for that vote.

3) McDonnell has reservations about a referendum for a variety of reasons.  Thats his personal view not party policy.

They cannot say what that vote will be exactly because they don’t know when it will be and what the state of the negotiations will be at that point.

The panic is obvious in the Tory Party

That’s how we got here in the first place.

tj your idea of clarity is a woolly piece of obfuscation which is trying to be all things to all men while committing to nothing. It is a good example of a composite motion but clear it is certainly not nor was it ever intended to be.

1 We might do a thing, sometime,

2 F*** knows what it might be, We don’t. And we’re not saying what it might be under any particular circumstance.

3 We’re solidly behind “honouring” the result of the referendum but won’t say what that means.

It calls to mind “An undertaking of great advantage and no one to know what it is”

I expect you’ll continue claiming it’s clear but that won’t make it so and neither will accusing everyone who’s arrived at a different conclusion to you of being a feckless dupe to “obvious bias in the reporting”.

FFS We were planning a road/ferry trip to southern Spain next year so we could take the mutt… Now he might never meet his grandad..

Pet passports will ceace to exist requiring more time, cost and administration if you want to take a pet out of the country.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-uk-britain-eu-flights-plane-green-card-latest-final-say-pet-passport-a8553051.html

Thanks for that brexiters. >:(

johnners – what would you have them do instead?  Specifics please.

they are already under attack from the tories and the tory press as antidemocratic ignoring the will of the people.

So what would you have them do?

Even shifting this far has got the attack dogs out – and remember the party is split badly

The Conservatives seized on Labour’s potential support for a people’s vote, with the prime minister tweeting that the party wanted to “take Britain back to square one – betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum”.

and I bet that is seized on in the tory press tomorrow.

So please – I really would like to know what you would have them do?

So what would you have them do?

I appreciate labour making it policy that remain is still on the table would destroy them politically.

But if I vote Labour, what am I supposed to do, trust to hope that they might keep the option open with no guarantee?

That’s not enough to persuade me to vote Labour tactically instead of Liberal Democrats in good faith. It might be a wasted vote but it’s the only vote I can cast in good conscience.

betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum”.

No, about half of them.

I really would like to know what you would have them do?

I would have them set out a policy, complete with some details as to how it would be implemented, and damn the press. That’s what serious political parties do. They hope there will be a GE soon – but are not willing, even at this point – to lay out their stall for scrutiny. **** them. **** them all.

I’m always amazed that the Corbyn fan-boys can’t see the glaringly obvious. He wants Brexit just as much as Rees Mogg and IDS.

He’s supposedly about ‘democratising the party’ until the pesky members disagree with him

Then…. not so keen

If it’d been left to that half-wit he’d have had article 50 triggered the day after the referendum and he’d have galloped off an economic cliff by now in search of some mythical socialist utopia.

i don’t think his attitude has changed one single bit since then. There’s no way on earth he’ll instigate anything that might imperil his precious Brexit, whatever the hell ‘the membership’ decide.

And if you think any different then you’re hopelessly naive.

When what’s looking like a terrifyingly inevitable hard Brexit arrives, he’ll go down in history as the labour leader who helped facilitate turning this country into a far-right neoliberal sweatshop tax-haven by his sheer stupidity, pig-headedness and rank incompetence

Hes as bad as any of the hardline lunatics on the benches opposite him because he’s spent the last two and a half years being their useful idiot

+1 to that

so no one actually has any specifics of what they think labour should do.  Its easy to criticise, its very difficult to be constructive

I really cannot think of anywhere else they can go on this.  BTW scotroutes – you know sturgeon is reluctant to have a second referendum on brexit – for somewhat similar reasons to those McDonnel has stated.

I really would like some of you that criticise labour for this to actually propose something concrete they could do

Binners – why do you say that when everything Corbyn has said opposes that.

He’s supposedly about ‘democratising the party’ until the pesky members disagree with him

Then…. not so keen

That is just utter nonsense.  He has already made changes that reduce the leaders power and has said he will be bound by conference.  He has already had decisions taken at conference that he will be bound by that he argued against.

I appreciate labour making it policy that remain is still on the table would destroy them politically.

they have already made it clear remain is on the table.

they have already made it clear remain is on the table.

No, labour have not, they are still ambiguous.

They have simply alluded that they might think about it.

That’s not good enough.

What should Corbyn have done?

He should have strongly supported a Remain vote 3 years ago and done all he could to have secured that result as a strong leader.

He sluggishly said that Labour would campaign for remain, which meant his party were keen but he wasn’t. As he is a keen Brexiter he now has absolutely no authority in my eyes to attempt to undermine the shambles on the benches opposite. His MP’s should be rightly furious. He is as much a Lame duck as May.

Regardless of the protagonists views, in terms of Labour’s chances of winning elections, they picked the wrong Milliband and should have selected Burnham over Corbyn.

Apologies if this has already been done before but 2 days ago on his ‘Leave Means Leave’ Facebook profile, Farage asked the following:

“IF THE UK WERE TO DECIDE TO HOLD A SECOND REFERENDUM ON OUR MEMBERSHIP OF THE EU. HOW WOULD YOU VOTE NOW KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW?”

After 530,600 votes the results stand at 37% to leave,  63% to remain.

And of course, the comments underneath feature Brexshiteers going apoplectic with rage! The oh so delicious irony…

TJ – are you suggesting that Sturgeon and the SNP are playing it coy on policy because they would come

under attack from the tories and the tory press as antidemocratic ignoring the will of the people.

??

Seriously?

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>mattyfez
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No, labour have not, they are still ambiguous.

They have simply alluded that they might think about it.

Which means it’s still on the table.

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Regardless of the protagonists views, in terms of Labour’s chances of winning elections, they picked the wrong Milliband and should have selected Burnham over Corbyn.

A warmonger and the guy thoroughly trounced by a supposed no-hoper.

have we realised we are all out yet? regardless

 A warmonger and the guy thoroughly trounced by a supposed no-hoper.

Correct. A no hoper in the eyes of the electorate who ain’t going to win the next election.

The right wing wins again thanks to the useful idiots of the left.

Gotta say, despite the cynicism, from my “drowning in despair at the blind Tory rush to implement leave no matter what” point of view, Labour’s albeit non-commital tip of the hat in the direction of keeping Remain on the table is music to my ears.

have we realised we are all out yet?

Holy cow – when did that happen?!? 🙁

Which means it’s still on the table.

Maybe. But ..

https://youtu.be/8v9Np4mh3tc

But the Rohirrim won through. As did Gondor – makes you think…

OK, so I can see Gove as Gollum and JRM as Sauron,  but who would May be?

Sarumay.

instead of Liberal Democrats in good faith

ROFL

This idea that we need skilled workers post brexit is complete bullshit as well, we have a skilled and educated workforce desperately in need of jobs. We need policies to encourage companies to take on skilled workers and train them for the specifics of a job, to make employment more secure and to make sure employees are treated as stakeholders in the business, not to import skills we already have to create a barriers to our young. If anything and if our government actually gave a toss about the UK citizens they need low skilled work to plug the gaps at the bottom.

Germany seems to do this successfully, and although it will make the bexiters red with rage, we should look at what they do and follow them.

betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum

This is the bit I really don’t get. This is a problem, but betraying the 75% who didn’t vote for this idiocy and who trust their government to work in their best interests is apparently absolutely fine?

johnners – what would you have them do instead?  Specifics please.

A slippery bit of pivoting there tj. Everything I’ve posted recently is questioning your absurd claim that the Labour position is clear while you then go on to state it can go in any and all directions. There’s no point discussing that any further with you while you cling to your very special meaning of the word “clear”. Your implication that I need to magic up a policy for Labour before I’m allowed to comment that their current stance on Brexit is purposefully vague is pretty desperate stuff but I’m broadly in agreement with scotroutes ^^.

Signpost, not weathercock, as someone or other in the Labour movement used to say.

You lot are debating something that is highly unlikely as no Tory of any type will run the risk of a GE so labours position real or imagined is immaterial.

May will not be ousted unless she threatens a peoples vote/referendum as the bull shitters like Boris and JRM dont actually have the bollocks to take over.

May is sat waiting (desperately) for the EU to  throw a lifeline (deal) that she can put to the vote in parliament- probably Norway which if it is supported by Labour and the Tory remainers will get passed but the shit it will cause…..

Its either Norway or WTO

The only thing that’s clear about the Labour brexit policy is that any vote for Labour will be taken as support for <whatever Corbyn decides> and I’m don’t trust him enough to give him that unqualified support. He could end up doing better than the Tories but that’s like saying that while the Tories are going to burn down my house and shed, Labour are only going to burn down the house.

so no one actually has any specifics of what they think labour should do.  Its easy to criticise, its very difficult to be constructive

I just want want them to set out their policies and publish them. I mean if they want a GE before Christmas then all of this should be ready and waiting. I don’t care if they are for or against anything but it would be nice to know

This wait and see then follow the crowd is a Boris (Dick) move….

Recent speeches celebrating the fight against thatcher trying to boost support for me is the same as flag waving and shouting sovereignty. Also saying private companies should gift stock to their employees has been used in the past to effectively handcuff employees to companies and get them to work extra hours for free as its now their company…

I just want want them to set out their policies and publish them.

Isn’t that why they are having a conference?

According to BBC McDonnell has confirmed that remain is still an option for the possible new ref.

The only thing that’s clear about the Labour brexit policy is that any vote for Labour will be taken as support for <whatever Corbyn decides>

But his party is not run like that. Have you not been watching?

Isn’t that why they are having a conference?

The brexit debate isn’t new, the party leaders should be clearly indicating their positions on it, to be agreed or disagreed by conference. I have been hoping that labour would challenge brexit ever since the vote happened (and even before), but they never have, they have disappeared from sight at every chance a challenge could have be mounted. It is a good thing to restore democracy at conference, but that also requires effective leadership to propose a direction that can be voted on. This is the main issue facing the UK, has been for the past 2 years and will be for a generation, it is naive in the extreme to believe that this party leadership, which has constantly fudged the question, will now change track, even if conference makes them they will not fully commit to the policy because they do not believe in it.

And the problem is their failure to challenge has also allowed the repeated lies to go unchallenged, the myths and racism have not been fought with reality and facts, and that has now become unforgivable, and this is why “leave” could still win a second referendum, because the truth has not been spoken in order to appease the ill informed and the racists.

+1 Binners.

As me and others have pointed out here, Labour have actually swung closer to the far right. History repeats itself etc etc, it was the same in the 20’s and 30’s.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/25/europe-labour-left-alt-right-corbynites-steve-bannon