Viewing 40 posts - 51,041 through 51,080 (of 77,140 total)
  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • jonba
    Free Member

    The brexit debate isn’t new, the party leaders should be clearly indicating their positions on it, to be agreed or disagreed by conference.

    I think their positions are clear. They don’t want to jepordise their chances of getting elected by picking sides. Unsuprisingly the brexit debate has shown that the majority of politicians are more interested in their own careers than the UK as a whole.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    the truth has not been spoken in order to appease the ill informed and the racists.

    That’s democracy for you. This thing that people seem to fetishize as the prefect solution to everything…

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Binners – why do you say that when everything Corbyn has said opposes that.

    Well I don’t know why Binners said that but my interpretation is Corbyn is

    in search of some mythical socialist utopia.

    Above and beyond anything else… in the same way as the Tory Brexiteers are in search of some capitalist utopia.

    Simplistically (at my level of understanding) .. Corbyn seems to want lots of nice things in theory as opposed to being pragmatic.  I think he would prefer to live in a world/country where everyone is financially equal .. however low that level is.  The picture in my head is not so different to Cuba perched next to the US.

    This is just as scary to me in a real world as the Tory brexiters mini-US …

    If I’ve got all that wrong then .. well Corbyn has a problem communicating what it is he wants for the members and the UK.

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    kerley
    Free Member

    If I’ve got all that wrong then .. well Corbyn has a problem communicating what it is he wants for the members and the UK.

    You have got that wrong and that is not because Corbyn has a problem communicating…

    dazh
    Full Member

    First they called him a terrorist sympathiser, then a russian spy, then a racist anit-semite. None of those worked so now they hit him with the worst smear of all, being on the side of JRM.

    Lets look at the facts. JC campaigned for remain, a lot more enthusiastically than a certain female tory cabinet minister did. He’s said continually that he wants a soft brexit in the form of a customs union and complimentary trade deal. He appointed an arch-remainer in the post of shadow brexit secretary. He has ‘allowed’ (he doesn’t have much choice, it being a democracy and all) his party to debate brexit and said he will support whatever the party votes for.

    Yes, he got a bit carried away the day after brexit. Since then though he’s been staunchly anti-hard-brexit. Are we going to judge his stance on one ill-judged comment after a night of no sleep, or what he’s said and done in the subsequent 2 years?

    Here’s a simple fact that will dictate where JC ends up on brexit. He won the leadership with the votes of new members who were below 30, on a promise to democratise the party. Those new members are pretty much 100% remain/soft brexit. They will have their voice, and he’ll follow it.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I think he would prefer to live in a world/country where everyone is financially equal .. however low that level is

    But even if he might prefer that in theory, he accepts it’s not possible in practice so is prepared to govern on the basis of what people want rather than what he wants.  Some people seem to have a huge problem understanding this – maybe because they cannot comprehend the idea of putting their own ego aside?  Not sure.

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

     They will have their voice, and he’ll follow it.

    Asking, because I don’t know – are they able to vote on motions at conference when they are not there (either via proxy or some other mechanism)?

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    So who was it that called the three line whips in favour of brexit then? The tooth fairy?

    dazh
    Full Member

    So who was it that called the three line whips in favour of brexit then? The tooth fairy?

    See my point a couple of pages ago about opposing brexit being political suicide. Honestly, everyone accuses Corbyn of being hopelessly naive and utopian, yet they would have him standing on a platform telling the country that the decision they made was wrong, that he knows better, and that they should be ignored. Much as I wish it would happen, this view that brexit can be reversed is a fantasy. The labour party know this, hence their current position on the subject.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    OK but you can’t simultaneously claim both that the Labour party policy is decided democratically by the members and also that we can’t have the policy that the members overwhelmingly support due to on political factors.

    Brexit can’t be reversed, brexit does’t need to be reversed. Brexit is dead and will not happen.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I think it could happen but not without huge ructions.

    In fact, WHATEVER happens from now on there’s going to be some huge political issues.

    Good one Dave, I hope you feel like a pillock.  TBH he probably does.

    binners
    Full Member

    Yeah, I bet he’s really bothered….

    dazh
    Full Member

    OK but you can’t simultaneously claim both that the Labour party policy is decided democratically by the members and also that we can’t have the policy that the members overwhelmingly support due to on political factors.

    No but what you can do is lead the members into a position whereby their concerns about brexit are addressed whilst at the same time not destroying the party’s chances of winning an election. That seems to me exactly what is happening. They will come off the fence eventually, and I fully expect it to be on the soft-brexit side, perhaps even with a second vote if the mood in the country shifts decisively towards remain. IMO it’s not a question of if, but when.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, maybe they won’t get a chance to do anything substantive but they have already chosen to support the tories several times. I see no good reason to trust them at this point.

    MSP
    Full Member

    No but what you can do is lead the members into a position whereby their concerns about brexit are addressed

    He has had a few years to do this, to counter the lies with facts, but he hasn’t. And he is just one of the long line of politicians who failed to address those concerns by educating, but instead he has continued to pander to prejudices and lies. He isn’t the change he promised to be, and we hoped he would be.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    And he is just one of the long line of politicians who failed to address those concerns by educating, but instead he has continued to pander to prejudices and lies.

    So is it the politican’s job to tell the electorate what to think?

    MSP
    Full Member

    It is an “honest” politicians job to not pander to lies and discrimination, and to actually fight against them. That is what he represents himself as, and before he became leader that is what he did, but his actions as leader have failed to live up to the billing.

    dazh
    Full Member

    but they have already chosen to support the tories several times

    Support the tories or support the ‘will of the people’ (bloody hate that phrase BTW!)? I was also pretty annoyed they voted for brexit rather than opposing it and had the view that they should have strongly opposed it from the very beginning. But I also recognise that it would have resulted in much larger tory majority in last year’s election, and as a result have been persuaded that outright opposition won’t work if avoiding a hard-brexit is the end goal.

    ctk
    Free Member

    Jesus wept Corbyn far right FFS.

    Any chance Corbyn gets he says how good immigration is for this country, how vital it is to the NHS.  It was the **** Labour lot post Blair but BEFORE he came to power that blindly went along with the tories and UKIPs anti immigration rhetoric.

    If Corbyn stands up tomorrow and says “Peoples Vote Now!”  What do you think will happen?

    To me it gives the Tories the upper hand and an escape route: “Its a shit deal because the EU, we had to do it though because Labour.”

    By waiting to see what shit deal the Tories come up with Labour can say “Thats a shit deal we can do better or lets have another vote as that deal is too damaging to business/ jobs/ NHS etc”

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Well this got interesting – for a change.

    Seems there are different perspectives on what politicans should be doing.

    raybanwomble
    Free Member

    Support the tories or support the ‘will of the people’ (bloody hate that phrase BTW!)? I was also pretty annoyed they voted for brexit rather than opposing it and had the view that they should have strongly opposed it from the very beginning. But I also recognise that it would have resulted in much larger tory majority in last year’s election, and as a result have been persuaded that outright opposition won’t work if avoiding a hard-brexit is the end goal.

    I don’t for a second think it was a given that trying to hang on to some racist or ignorant working class votes, allowed Labour to hang in there. Had they been a bit further left of Blair, but with mass appeal and staunchly supported remain from the outset – they would have 1) Galvanised more young remainers to actually vote in that election 2) Poached the educated middle classes who are horrified by the economic effects of Brexit (I’ve met a few types of middle class people who could have been poached, those in the financial services who are educated and are essentially kind people who could put aside paying a bit more tax if it made themselves feel better and middle class mothers who are thinking about their children’s future) and 3) they could have poached more of the ethnic vote. But ethnic minorities in the UK are often very hard working and financially driven – and whilst many would have voted for an outright remain party – they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Corbyns economics. So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism.

    I’ll be voting Lib Dem till the day I die, to stick one up to the upper and working classes.

    raybanwomble
    Free Member

    Any chance Corbyn gets he says how good immigration is for this country, how vital it is to the NHS. It was the **** Labour lot post Blair but BEFORE he came to power that blindly went along with the tories and UKIPs anti immigration rhetoric.

    He’s a left wing nationalist, who says that to capture the inner London ethnic vote. He has decided, for some insane reason that is **** beyond me – to try and keep the racist working class vote and the inner London vote at the same time. Everything he says and does, is tactical and thought out – even the anti-Semitism in the party is designed to win votes. Stay low on Brexit, keep some racists/thick ****, be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink – keep a substantial part of the ethnic vote whilst still pandering to working class white people.

    He is trying to be different things to different people, other people in history have used the exact same tactic and have succeeded.

    MSP
    Full Member

    So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism

    Well that is just an outright lie!

    dissonance
    Full Member

    So is it the politican’s job to tell the electorate what to think?

    It is their job to explain their positions and try to persuade people to their viewpoint. Just as much as it is for the opinion writers in the media or think tanks.

    As ctk says labour are in a dangerous position. No one is sure exactly what will happen if they come out strongly against. Some polls show some people voting for them but the simple fact is a lot of the labour seats voted out. If they bail the tories out they could get completely hammered in the next election since the tories wont be thanking them for saving them from the mess but would be looking for profit. Likewise the labour “moderates” would dive in and try to pull the party rightwards again.

    Yes it would be nice to save the country from Brexit but if that comes at the cost of the party being wiped out?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    See my point a couple of pages ago about opposing brexit being political suicide. Honestly, everyone accuses Corbyn of being hopelessly naive and utopian,

    See it’s multiple things …. does he have the conviction to commit political suicide for the sake of the electorate?

    yet they would have him standing on a platform telling the country that the decision they made was wrong, that he knows better, and that they should be ignored.

    I would have him on a platform saying they had been deceived… and that whilst he himself is a Euroskeptic that being in is far better than being out in anything other than fantasy conditions, that no type of Brexit remotely possible can possibly provide the promises for everyone.  Brexit was and continues to be a scam… it’s no different to promising lots of attractive things you can’t or have no intention of delivering because once you sign they forget the promises that were only ever “examples”

    molgrips
    Free Member

    So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism.

    That’s a bonkers thing to say IMO.

    ransos
    Free Member

    He’s a left wing nationalist

    He’s a social democratic internationalist.

    be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink

    He was defending Jews before I was born. You should take more water with it.

    raybanwomble
    Free Member

    It’s only bonkers if you think Corbyn somehow better than everyone else. He uses exactly the same political stratagems as Trump, I don’t for a second believe that he doesn’t have a bunch of data scientists and PR types who are painstakingly building his support base.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism

    Well that is just an outright lie!

    It’s certainly got some truth to it…  but really as Womble says

    He is trying to be different things to different people, other people in history have used the exact same tactic and have succeeded.

    It’s almost the same as when the FN in France got a large Jewish vote by the reverse.

    raybanwomble
    Free Member

    Internationalist? Hah! I think he has toyed with being an internationalist. That involves getting along in a world where some people, countries or cultures are not socialist though. We can’t have that can we? Hence the EU wasn’t socialist enough for him.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn_uk_5a944206e4b02cb368c460d8?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_cs=Sn-sNtXPfPFERhyzmjuULQ

    Why Jeremy Corbyn is not part of the Clement Attlee internationalist tradition within Labour

    https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-s-internationalism-is-a-myth-7537

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I don’t for a second believe that he doesn’t have a bunch of data scientists and PR types who are painstakingly building his support base.

    I think he’d be further ahead in the polls if he were.

    Did you notice that the surge in support at the last election only happened when he started delivering speeches in person?

    I don’t get pro-labour posts on my FB except directly from his account, because I liked it in the first place.  And the Guardian obvs, but they aren’t all pro-Corbyn anyway.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    It’s worth pointing out that Labour policy is only to support a 2nd ref if there is not an election, ie if there is a snap election and by some miracle they win, they will happily impose their own vision of brexit on the country without so much as a second glance.

    dannyh
    Free Member

    Just tuning back in.

    So – has anyone managed to come up with a single coherent and convincing reason why Brexit is a good idea?

    I mean, irrespective of the party political manoeuvrings, this is still the salient point, right?

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Everything he says and does, is tactical and thought out – even the anti-Semitism in the party is designed to win votes. Stay low on Brexit, keep some racists/thick ****, be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink –

    Some days you wish that it was Jamba you are talking to. Even he never got quite this demented.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    It’s certainly got some truth to it…

    Umm – no – it certainly hasn’t.

    raybanwomble
    Free Member

    I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/07/labour-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn

    dazh
    Full Member

    they will happily impose their own vision of brexit on the country without so much as a second glance.

    Or they’ll implement whatever version of brexit they propose in their election manifesto, which people have just voted for and put them in government to do. So why the need for another vote in that case?

    I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?

    Yawn. Give it up. The anti-semitism rubbish didn’t work, it’s old news.

    raybanwomble
    Free Member

    Yawn. Give it up. The anti-semitism rubbish didn’t work, it’s fake news.

    You sound remarkably like ninfan or a Trump supporter there.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    dazh, the reason for another vote is that they will only (in your wildly optimistic dreams) have obtained close to 45% of the vote and will only achieve a proportion of what they promise in the manifesto and their brexit deal will only be supported by a minority of the electorate.

    Other than blatant hypocrisy, what is the rationale for demanding a ref on the tory plan and not allowing one on their own plan?

    dissonance
    Full Member

    I assume you think that the Guardian is demented then, for posting this opinion piece?

    Thats the Observer not the Guardian. Also you do realise the Guardian is not really a fan of Corbyn dont you and with the more rabid “moderates” can take on the daily mail for frothing hatred about him.

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