If you’re so certain that Brexit is the best path Zulu, why are you against the idea of a second referendum to confirm it?

There won’t be a second referendum because we have a hysterical right wing press and a bunch of hard-right lunatic politicians who have dreamt of this moment for decades almost as a religion, and a pathetically weak, spineless government and opposition. The latter are absolutely terrified of the former and are having their agendas dictated to them. Apparently this is a celebration of democracy

To be fair @binners, new Labour primarily did the tories’ work for them. At least Corbyn has some points of differentiation.

Corbyns Labour are far less in thrall to the rightwing papers that Blairs was

If you’re so certain that Brexit is the best path Zulu, why are you against the idea of a second referendum to confirm it?

Because the electoral commission fully reviewed all options for the question to be put to the public before the referendum was held, and they didn’t recommend putting “best of three” on the bottom

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/192093/GfK-Report-EU-Referendum-Question-Testing-2015-WEB.pdf

ninfan – just admit it is because you think you might lose

Looks like labour have confirmed they will stay in the custom’s union and a likely Tory, snp, libs and labour union against a hard brexit….

“a” customs union not “the” – thats the bit of fudge needed.  However its  sensibleish position and does allow for that coalition you mention who should be able to defeat the government

Well it’s the first nail in the coffin of brexit from Labour. But no more than that.

Great article, as usual, by Andrew Rawnsley in today’s Observer, saying that Brexit all now hinges on the Labour Party and what it decides. With May having such a slim majority (when you include the DUP) it would only require 7 Tory MPs to vote with labour to scupper a hard Brexit

and if labour comes out in favour of the customs union and the single market it’d be guaranteed at least 20, negating the Kate Hoey/Dennis Skinner element. The Tory Whips know this and are bricking it about Corbyn speech tomorrow. If he gets it right then the Brexiteers dream Hard Brexit is dead in the water, May is probably finished, and the Tory party can get on with tearing itself apart

Here’s hoping, eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/25/mrs-mays-awayday-was-a-sideshow-big-brexit-crunch-will-be-in-parliament

With May having such a slim majority (when you include the DUP

I dont think she can rely on them especially if the alternative is a Border in the irish sea and customs between NI and the mainland but not the republic

No one in the DUP is voting for that

Its obvious a CU has a parliamentary majority

As for engaging with ninfan what are we doing feeding one troll at a time ? Are they on a rota?

The Tory Whips know this and are bricking it about Corbyn speech tomorrow. If he gets it right then the Brexiteers dream Hard Brexit is dead in the water, May is probably finished, and the Tory party can get on with tearing itself apart

More exciting than a new series of Narcos.

Getting old.

Oh dear… oh deary me.

What are you BloHard Contards going to do now?

I foresee huge backpeddling, renounced and denounced comments, plenty of filibuster and wobbly chins, a new pair of shoes no doubt for Das furher and plenty of “I only voted Brexit because of the trade” bullshite.

You wanted to leave, bugger off.

Bunch of 🤡

I’m not in the binners school of rabid anti-Corbynism, but I find it hard to believe that his speech will amount to anything decisive  More likely to be just some lukewarm soup about generalities.

it would only require 7 Tory MPs

Six, I think you mean – one will already be voting against 😉 . Five if you include Anna.

We’ll be in the customs union. It won’t be “a” union either. EU negotiators have already said as much.

Given the political open goal he is presently being presented with – game-changer – huge body blow to the right wing of the Tory party, two fingers to the right wing press, possibly bringing down the PM, and instigating the implosion of theTory Party – there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will spoon it into Row Z.

Cue a massive collective nationwide face-palm by all his MPs bar Kate Hoey and Dennis Skinner and all the sane members of the electorate

Bet you are wrong Binners.  I really do not understand why you are so anti corbyn and pro prats like Burnham

We’ll be in the customs union. It won’t be “a” union either. EU negotiators have already said as much.

I think it has has to be ‘a’ CU if we leave the SM, as ‘the’ CU is for members of the SM only. However, there’s no reason we couldn’t negotiate ‘a’ CU which was entirely equivalent to the one for SM members (unlike the CU with Turkey, for example, which excludes certain sectors) and I think this is what Lab mean.

There is of course a question about not having a say in the rules; for example the French have always been keen that banks doing business in the SM need to be headquartered in the SM, which we’ve successfully opposed but might not be able to do so post-Brexit.

I gather only ⅓ of leave voters thought they were voting to leave the SM.

The Tory Whips know this and are bricking it

If what Ed Vaizey was saying on TV is true, the Tory whips have next to no control of their party.

Given the political open goal he is presently being presented with – game-changer – huge body blow to the right wing of the Tory party, two fingers to the right wing press, possibly bringing down the PM, and instigating the implosion of theTory Party – there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will spoon it into Row Z

I am sure he knows he can do that but then he may be the PM expected to deliver the thing he does not really want and the labour party will be as weak and divided as the Tories are. DOnt get me wrong I want t him to but I thin he is trying to say something to “unite” his party whilst it still not being 100% clear. I will get the best customs union for Britain that will protect workers,, save the environment, grow the economy but he wont say WTF it is just like May

You hate Corbyn more than most Mail readers

Im not so sure that the 6 odd Tories would actually back this alleged labour amendment.

They’d rather see the country flushed down the tubes than risk destabilising Maybot, as much as they all despise her none of them want that poisoned chalice right now, nor do they want labour in.

I’d like to be wrong, but Ill wager cowardice will win the day

Because the electoral commission fully reviewed all options for the question to be put to the public before the referendum was held, and they didn’t recommend putting “best of three” on the bottom

No, they didn’t. But that doesn’t answer my question does it? If I were to ask you if you wanted to leave your home, the next logical question is where are we going and how do we get there. The public have not been given an opportunity to answer those questions, and they may now have reservations about going outside at all as it turns out the weather is rubbish.

Kimbers – its a backbench tory amendment and has the backing of a significant number of tories

its a backbench tory amendment and has the backing of a significant number of tories

This. Dominic Grieve has already said he will do what is right for his conscience regardless of whether it is in line with the party whip. I’d expect Soubers to do the same, and (at a guess) Morgan, Greening and Vaizey. There will likely be others who are in pro-Remain seats that aren’t comfortable with the ERG headbanger squad trying to control the narrative.

Edit: Sarah Wollaston, Stephen Hammond and Johnathan Djanogly are named on the amendment, along with Morgan, and Soubry. So there’s five off the bat.

Fingers crossed that Obi-Wan sticks to Keir’s script and doesn’t take any questions.

The Corbyn speech. Sounds positive to me.

Can his words be backed up with actions?

Sounds OK ish to me.  Not my preferred option which would be ” a second referendum on the deal” but he has outlined what he wants and how he intends to get there which is a lot more than the tories have.

also nothing I saw which is evidently impossible to get unlike the tories

Seems to me its a Norway / Switzerland / turkey type deal but even closer

Sounded remarkably sensible to me. And in stark contrast to the total pie-in-the-sky ‘cake and eat it’ nonsense the Tories are spouting.

We are really through the looking glass when a labour leader generally labelled a marxist, pinko commie delivers a speech that seems to take the considerations of business (in ensuring tail free access to markets) a lot more seriously to ‘The Natural Party of Business’ who appear to be happy to sacrifice everything on the alter of their hard right isolationist zealotry

I really don’t know how he couldn’t have said it 6 months ago though. Surely its been the inevitable final destination for a lot longer than that, and what the vast majority of his party wanted all along?

Anyway… over to Theresa. Now theres a clear differentiation between labour and the Tory’s I’m sure her speech will now be being re-written for the 93rd time. She’s probably now going to have to cancel it so that she can dither for another few months to try and prevent civil war breaking out. Deep down she probably envies Jezza for being able to announce a sensible policy on Brexit without their own party going into meltdown

Sounds like he listened to the electorate…

No doubt the hard core will be angry, which is fine as they have failed to come up with any workable solution. If anything this could force some votes to split the tories and then we see what happens from there. If those who really really want to leave can’t come up with a plan then I guess it could be time for putting the plan to the people.

Sounded remarkably sensible to me. And in stark contrast to the total pie-in-the-sky ‘cake and eat it’ nonsense the Tories are spouting.

Same here! I actually breathed out a sigh of relief. Finally someone is making sensible, practical decisions! I thought it was never going to happen lol.

Christ, Harperson is on Australian QandA talking about Brexit. It’s not as if Australia has enough of its own political problems already…

George Osboune’s Editorial in the Evening Standard tonight just put out on Twitter. He really does love putting the boot into the Maybot, doesn’t he. He must be loving this!

Tories gifted Corbyn an open goal on the customs union, and he just put the ball in.

The Labour leader has, with the smallest of nudges, manoeuvred himself into a more pro-business, pro-free trade European policy than the Tory Government.

He has also opened up the looming prospect of the Prime Minister suffering a huge defeat in the Commons, as the number of Tory MPs who agree with remaining in a customs union grows each week.

The Evening Standard has warned consistently that this would happen since the moment the last election result became clear.

So did the Chancellor of the Exchequer, many sensible Cabinet members, business groups, Tory peers and backbench MPs.

But the warnings were ignored and the Conservative leadership instead chose to appease the hardcore Brexiteers, obsessed with the ideological purity of their experiment and — in some cases — openly willing to lose an election, if that’s the price of pursuing it.

Christ! I’m agreeing with George Osbourne!

I’m pretty certain May must know now that she’ll lose a vote on the customs union as Anna Soubry et al will be massively emboldened by this development. Could this actually force some compromise, maybe less ludicrous government policy, and her stopping this shameless pandering to the maniacs in her own party?

Nice one Corbs.  I dont think it can be argued against- 52 vs 48 means out but only just.

For perspective Corbyn’s new stance is broadly aligned with that of the Economist. Which kind of illustrates how far to the looney right the Conservatives have been dragged!

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21737271-britain-can-take-back-control-europe-without-cutting-all-ties-right-way-do-brexit

Christ! I’m agreeing with George Osbourne!

I know! I think I need a shower!!

I really don’t know how he couldn’t have said it 6 months ago though. Surely its been the inevitable final destination for a lot longer than that, and what the vast majority of his party wanted all along?

Quite. Feels like we’ve been asleep for 18 months.

Deep down she probably envies Jezza for being able to announce a sensible policy on Brexit without their own party going into meltdown

I bet she does!!

Nice one Corbs.  I dont think it can be argued against- 52 vs 48 means out but only just.

This is exactly the approach Norway took when they had broadly the same result with their referendum in 1994, and have been doing perfectly fine ever since thank you very much!! 🙂

Rhe problem with al of the Brexit options is that they are still  brexit and instead of a standard package of conditions that every state benefits from Britain only gets offered what is acceptable to all 27 states. Which is never going to be anywhere near as good as the standard package. Which is why whatever the type of Brexit it reduces GDP growth compared with EU membership in simulations.

I posted a thread about Renew, an alternative party to lead Britian away from Brexit and no-one even bothered to reply. Even when there’s a new alternative to Labour dogma from 1974 and rabid right Tories people just aren’t interested.

Norway is oil rich, has a tiny population and doesn’t need the EU, Britain does.

I think given the total political chaos around Brexit at the moment, the very last thing people are going to want to do is start throwing new political parties in to the mix. Its just not going to happen

Its clear that its labour MPs and the membership that have talked Corbyn round into a less damaging policy

Interestingly, Kenneth Clark has just been interviewed and his assessment is that this is now a change of direction that will lead to, by May or June, a situation where the majority of MPs will vote to remain in the Customs Union and the Single Market

I hope he’s right

A new party might work in France… but the hurdles in front of any new party (or indeed any party other than the top two) on its way to forming a UK government are bloody huge! So, yes, the idea was dismissed. Political reality.