They already are. Renault are claiming a 40% reduction in R&D costs and a 30% reduction in production costs for the Zoé 2 compared to Zoé 1.

https://www.auto-moto.com/nouveautes/scoop/renault-zoe-2019-174346.html#item=

I bet it ain’t 30% cheaper to purchase though.

It’s all bolix, the ‘energy’ has to come from somewhere. We all need to stop buying cars every few years – that’s far more environmentally friendly in ‘life time’ costs. Battery production has some very bad environmental impacts as it is.

I’m tempted to get a second hand Zoe, as mentioned earlier. I drive a 17 year old family saloon car. Costs me nothing, it’s still in fab condition, but in traffic stop start it does 25 mpg. £70 a month battery rental plus free recharging might halve my fuel bill, but I’ve got a newer car to pay for, when my old one still does everything it needs to do. It transports 4 MTB’s on the roof and four adults – a Zoe wouldn’t get far with that. We also have a family SUV – that’s better on fuel than my old car, but would be an ass to transport bikes on – an extra lift !

Electric cars aren’t the answer at the moment, when electricity is still very dirty to generate.

But it’s getting cleaner all the time.

But it’s getting cleaner all the time.

And things like NOx and particulates don’t get dumped into crowded urban environments.

The last time I looked UK electricity was 32% renewable. And for the first time since 1882 the country managed a few days without coal-fired powerstations (second link at bottom).

Electric cars are also exceptionally economical in energy terms when compared with ICE. The Zoé has averaged 12.8kWh/100km from new. Even when you take into charging losses that’s sweet **** all. There are about 9.85 kWh in a litre of petrol (link at the bottom) so a petrol car doing 5.8l/100km (my previous 1.2l TCE Renault also driven economically by me) is using four and half times the energy. Both of the figures I obtain are very close to the manufacturers claims.

So even when you compare with a worst case of charging 100% from a gas fired power station the EV does much better. The power station (32-38% efficent according to wiki) produces electricity as efficiently as the best petrol engines (35% according to the article linked) and the electric car uses that energy more efficently than a petrol car.

Energy recovery braking: not just a bit like a hybrid but a shed load. Braking moderately downhill results in a charge of 36kW
Zero consumption when it’s standing still (without the irritation of stop/start).
Very low consumption at very low speed, it’ll trickle along in slow moving traffic at 1 or 2kW
A very clean aero design with a flat bottom and a smaller need for cooling vents/radiators, .29cx
No excessive consumption during warm up.
Always in the right gear.

My conclusion is that in real use with the current UK energy mix a Zoé produces about half the CO2 per km compared with the equivalent petrol Clio. And zero local emissons. So you need to back uo your “bollix” claim with some numbers Fossy.

https://www.challenges.fr/automobile/dossiers/la-verite-sur-la-consommation-des-voitures-electriques_2623

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/08/britain-passes-1-week-without-coal-power-for-first-time-since-1882

I see that others have beaten me to challenging the ‘dirty’ electricity statement above, but a few more facts anyway…

As stated by Edukator the precentage renewable for the UK electricity supply is 30% so far in 2019. It has ranged from approximately 10% to 50%.

I have been away walking for a sunny weekend and in that time my solar panels have fed 31kWh into my Renault Zoe. That is more that a weeks driving for me with no grid energy. I doesn’t get much cleaner than that.

Decarbonising of the electricity grid is a big issue at this time, the share or renewables is expected to rise with time. EVs are not the one ‘magic bullet’ to solve all our problems however they are better than ‘conventional’ cars for the reasons mentioned by the three posters above.

Since driving an EV I have also found myself much more aware of trying to reduce energy use when driving, I think that the lower range (still >150 miles), longer charging times and real time data as you drive make you think harder.

I agree that the consumption habits of our society need to change, but to critisise EVs for using dirty electricity is just not true and has been deservedly challenged.

Just provoking debate. I really would buy a second hand Zoe, they look great also. It would be ideal for my work commute, and we have loads of charging stations. I wouldn’t need to use it at home. But, as someone that regularly goes down to the N. Wales coast, only 70 miles, but I can’t get a Zoe recharged easily down there (static caravan electrics are a no-no) and very few EV charge points.

We have an SUV that would take the bikes, with step ladders. I need convincing more. I’m not convinced hybrids are any better, my FIL didn’t get much better fuel use in his Prius than we got in an older Yaris non hybrid.

PS also, bear in mind some of us won’t be leasing a car – buying and running an EV has potentially more complicated issues.

Zap-map will give you an idea of where charging stations are Fossy. Might be worth looking if you’re thinking about it.

Every campsite we’ve been to with Zoé has had somewhere to charge. We carry the standard campsite blue plug adaptor and ask to be pointed at a 10A or more socket.

If worried about safe ampage on a socket, even if it’s a 3 pin, you can throttle down the charging current of the cars I’ve experienced, although that doesn’t include a Zoe.

Also, charging points being few and far between isn’t the same as them being non-existent and the numbers are rising all the time. Personally I take the view that the decision I’m making (to buy an EV) isn’t so much driven by today’s infrastructure, more by tomorrow’s. I can stomach a bit of mild inconvenience in the meantime. YMMV of course!

The Zoé defaults to level 1 10A charging unless it detects that is connected to Greenup socket. To put 10A into perspective that’s 2.2 kW. Now go and look at the base of your kettle and check the rating of that, no doubt somewhere between 2.2kW and 3kW. Your kettle is more likely to trip the electrics than a Zoé.

The problem with charging an ev from a normal socket isn’t so much the power, but the length of time it’s running for; a kettle won’t burn out slightly dodgy socket wiring in two minutes, whereas an ev charging for fifteen hours might.

The Zoe will always charge as fast as the EVSE it is connected to will allow; the only way to slow it down would be to use a charger that has a selectable maximum rate. Some cars like the BMW i3 let you set the rate yourself, but not the Zoe.

I’ll try another approach then as you don’t like the kettle. The car is less than most of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oil-Filled-Radiators/b?ie=UTF8&node=11712371

the only way to slow it down would be to use a charger that has a selectable maximum rate. Some cars like the BMW i3 let you set the rate yourself, but not the Zoe.

I think there is new legislation coming in july where all home chargers have to be smart. So they can be remotely communicated with by the user to do what you’re suggesting, but also to allow reduction in high peaks of electricity demands. So essentially the ‘grid’ will be able to throttle your smart charger as well, I think.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-funded-electric-car-chargepoints-to-be-smart-by-july-2019

If by “throttle” you mean “cut off”, B.A.Nana. Smart just means they can remotely cut you you off, Ive seen no mention of varying the charge rate and even if it they do incorporate that it’s only going to work on Type 2 chargers. On the domestic plug type chargers it’s the car that decides how huch to draw.

The bollocks the UK government spout does make me smile:

The government wants the UK to be the best place in the world to build and own an electric vehicle, and through leadership and innovation it is paving the way to a zero emission future.

Compare the UK with Norway:

Norwegian EV policy

The UK doesn’t want to be the best place in the world and won’t be, it isn’t even trying, they’re lying to you again.

They probably do want to be the best in the world at everything. They just aren’t prepared (or don’t know how) to do anything remotely helpful towards it.

Actually that’s not quite fair. The fact that BIK tax on company electric cars is so low is probably responsible for 80% of the electric cars on the road, I reckon. Even bland everyday company cars are very expensive in terms of tax, choosing electric or PHEV really reduces this.

I still reckon my ideal electric car isn’t quite here yet – perhaps it’s being built this year, but I can’t afford it. 🙂

While I can walk/ride/even get a train the two miles to work and we don’t really drive much in the week, at weekends we usually want to get two people, two bikes, a dog and camping gear in and drive to Peebles/West Wales/South West… all around 200-250 miles away. Allow a 40 mins scotch-egg and coffee recharge in Tebay/Gloucester and I’d be happy with that, but so far there’s nothing under £20K that’ll really do that. The BMW i3 REX is the nearest I reckon (Or a Tesla S, but that’s silly money)… So while I’m keen to get an e-car right now, I think the one I’ll want to actually have will be in about three years, when all the e-Niros and Model 3s and whatnot are all off lease and affordable… What to do for those three years then? Keep the diesel Doblo? Or splash on an i3 and learn to pack lean?

Incidentally, talking of infrastructure, my Tesla-owning pal has been pointing out that most of the UK’s service stations tend to be in the middle of a field next to a motorway. Assuming they have the optimum amount of electricity cabling coming to them for the moment, what happens when the electric car proportion goes from 1% to 30% or 50%? That’s a lot of extra power to get to a field in the middle of Staffordshire/Herefordshire/Devon…

Really want a Zoe but local dealership is too small and doesnt do goood deals . Need to go to bigger town .

Incidentally, talking of infrastructure, my Tesla-owning pal has been pointing out that most of the UK’s service stations tend to be in the middle of a field next to a motorway. Assuming they have the optimum amount of electricity cabling coming to them for the moment, what happens when the electric car proportion goes from 1% to 30% or 50%? That’s a lot of extra power to get to a field in the middle of Staffordshire/Herefordshire/Devon…

big storage battery packs on site (large powerwalls to your Tesla mate) is the solution apparently, which’ll charge during low demand and discharge on peak demand, or whatever, the boffins will find a solution to whatever your mate wants to be negative about..

what happens when the electric car proportion goes from 1% to 30% or 50%?

Based on what’s happened in Norway where they’re up to 50% (plug in hybrid and BEVs), nothing much. Yes it’s a small country, but their experience tells us that people don’t all charge at the same, tend to charge off peak and the electricty distribution network holds up just fine. No grid “melting” as one “expert” on here predicted.

58.4% of all new vehicles in Norway are purely electric

the electricty distribution network holds up just fine.

The post wasn’t about the electricity network in general, it was specifically about wiring to service stations which in the UK are often in the middle of the countryside and would become charging hotspots. I’m sure it’s easy enough to upgrade their supply though, if someone wants to pay for it.

Also beware of drawing too many conclusions from the Norway example, these are two developed countries about as different as it’s possible to be.

Chipps, the env200 van that you did an article on before got an upgrade to a 40kWh battery last year (like the current Leaf), rather than 24kWh in the old. Can be had from about £24k new.

LDV have just announced a smaller electric van too, which will be available with a 54kWh battery for close to 200 mile range. Price hopefully mid-20s for the larger battery one. Can’t wait for more competition in this space.

Cheers Simon. I did hear that about the eNV200, though I’ve not been able to see many around. I did also hear that the battery isn’t heated/cooled as well as on the Leaf.

A 54kWh LDV sounds good too. Given that white vans are going to find it harder and harder to deliver in cities (yet are making up more and more of the traffic) I’m surprised that there isn’t more movement here – yet…

I did also hear that the battery isn’t heated/cooled as well as on the Leaf.

I read somewhere it’s better and the new Leaf+ uses the better technology. Using air from the air con to cool the battery. In the UK I really wouldn’t worry about it, it’s nearly always cool/warm and humid isn’t it? On the Zoé the fans really make their presence felt from start up above 30°C and below zero. At home it’s best to press the pre-conditioning button on the key fob 5 minutes before you get in so it’s nice and toasty/cool in the cabin and the battery is more efficient.

Prompted by this thread I had a look at some stuff on how Renault and Nissan heat and cool the batteries. Renualt use a heat pump which cools at 2kW and heats at 3kM from 1kW consumed. The Leaf just uses a heating element which is greedy but the Leaf+ and van use the air con for battery cooling. This is just from press articles.

In the UK I really wouldn’t worry about it, it’s nearly always cool/warm and humid isn’t it?

I’ll say it again
The very first case of Rapidgate was reported by a Jonathan Porterfield who lives in Orkney and was delivering a latest 2018 Leaf from Leicester to Orkney.
It’s to do with rapid charging and rapid discharging (ie fast motorway driving and then using rapid chargers), It’s about electrochemical actions creating heat deep inside battery cells, that isn’t being heat managed properly (like glycol cooling used by Tesla and others) ….. it’s not got anything or much to do with how close you live to the equator.

And I’ll say it again, Jonathon was doing a long jouney in which it was on the third recharge the charge rate dropped and he was driving for a dangerously long period without and hour and a half break which would have been illegal were he a truck driver.

It’s to do with repeated rapid charging and even when it slows down it’s still 22kW – that’s what he says. On my trip around the UK I didn’t use a single charger that was rated over 18kW. I could have gone out of my way to one but as they charge you about the same price for electricity as the petrol for the equivalent range I was happy to stop for a coffee and a free charge, and it gave Madame the chance to buy some jeans and a t-shirt for junior in Primark.

Some people like to be dick about minor inconvenieces that aren’t an inconvenience unless you’re being a dick about it like your Jonathon mate.

And I’ll say it again, Jonathon was doing a long jouney in which it was on the third recharge the charge rate dropped and he was driving for a dangerously long period without and hour and a half break which would have been illegal were he a truck driver.

It’s to do with repeated rapid charging and even when it slows down it’s still 22kW – that’s what he says.

Yes Yes, exactly that, so why do you keep suggesting living in a hot country is the major part of the issue? the only issue is with continuous rapid charging and discharging, no matter where you live.

You forgot to add rapid driving. And as I’ve used the Zoé everywhere from the chilly English Midlands to the Spanish Meseta in Summer I feel well placed to say where you live makes a pretty big difference. It was about 45°C in Spain, trying to cool a battery with dry air at 45°C clearly isn’t the same as cooling with whatever the temperature of air is where most STW readers live (Edinbourgh ? 🙂 ). The noise Zoé makes tells me exactly how hard she’s working to keep the battery cool.

For perspective I’veonly charged the Zoé three or more times in a day on half a dozen occasions, the third charge came up at between 500 and 600km, by which time an hour and a half break was very welcome.

Rapidgate is non problem for non-dicks 98% of the time (98% figure provide by a well-known Oxford graduate)

Any excuse to slag of electric cars though, eh. Meanwhile those noisy, stinking, greenhousing, poisoning ICEs are still the vehicle of choice anywhere except Norway.

Edit to add: some info on Lithium ion batteries to put the influence of clamate into perspective. Cooling a battery at 15°C really isn’t the same as trying to cool a battery when the ambient temperature is already at the upper limit of the acceptable battery temperature range for charging. Air cooling in th eUK is a reasonable proposition, in the Spanish Meseta a heat pump becomes essential. I don’t think it matters much whether you use liquid or air cooling so long as the air or liquid is cool enough

https://www.plarad.de/fileadmin/downloads/FAQ_related%20to%20lithium%20ion%20rechargeable%20battery%20care_DA1_en_0216.pdf

A question about swapping ICE for EV.

We still haven’t decided on a new car, following my “posh SUV” thread a couple of months ago.

I really would like an EV, the Mrs is not so sure. We live in rural mid Wales and have a 15 year old petrol Honda, owned from new, 240,000 miles, and an 11 year old diesel Astra.

Is now a good time to chop one in for an EV, paying a fairly premium price when all thoughts are that prices will drop over the next couple of years? or do we think there will be a scrappage type scheme in a couple of years which will provide for a bigger contribution towards an EV?

Both current cars are good and pass mots easily. The Honda will soon be too old to get breakdown cover on which seems to have a cut off at 16 years. Due to our rural location, and the fact that most of our journeys are 80 mile round trips we need that cover, so it is pressing to get rid of the Honda.

We also regularly do 300+ mile round trips to see my family. Sounds like an EV would be fine for most of our journeys and then have the 2nd car as an ICE for the longer trips.

But when would be a good time to buy? Or should I swap out the diesel now for a petrol and go for ev in a couple of years.

I hate buying cars!

If you don’t do a lot of miles (or have access to cheap/free charging) I think it’s hard to justify an EV purely financially at the moment and I think with battery tech being developed all the time if you’re looking to change again in 2-5 years you could take a fairly big hit on depreciation (at least with the £40k+ EV’s which a premium SUV will be). But if you intend to keep it for a longer period and want something more environmentally friendly than an ICE then an EV sounds like it makes sense for you

Even the odd 300+ mile round trip shouldn’t be an issue in a premium SUV style EV (I’m guessing Tesla X or Audi eTron at the minute, although more options are on the way), you’re allowed to stop and charge it on long trips :p

Me personally I’m waiting on the lease deals for the Tesla 3 to see who much depreciation they’re factoring in, unless it’s a ridiculous amount I think I’ll go that way and then buy an EV in 3 years assuming things have moved on again a bit since (or at least there’s a lot more choice and competition in the market).

Two reliable cars in rural Wales (where local pollution isn’t much of an issue), I’d keep them until one of them needs more spending for the MOT (or keeping it safe whichever comes first) than the first year’s depreciation on whatever you replace it with. When one goes to the breakers buy a EV and hope that there’s some kind of incentive beyond the current BEV grant. The Leaf+ would do a 300 mile round trip with one charge, check out the charge points on the route to your regular destinations.

Thanks fuzzywuzzy and edukator- that’s kind of where my head is at the moment- hang on as long as the current motors allow.

Not really had a look at the leaf. Would need to be a decent size to get elderly parents in with their luggage (when they come to stay with us as dad cant drive that far now), and also for the two grandkids and their associated gubbins- hence the SUV requirement (other factors too add in to this).

The Honda will soon be too old to get breakdown cover on which seems to have a cut off at 16 years

get breakdown cover that covers the driver (probably a policy each for you and your wife) and it shouldn’t have those restrictions

had a look at a Zoe today. Not as many toys as a Leaf but we are tempted by the 30 day rolling lease posted on here for £289.

I do around 70 miles a day and go through 3 tanks a month. Insurance £500 a year (high group car), £160 tax, servicing I do every 6 months myself (say £50 on average), £600 for a set of tyres every 2 years and then repairs (just spent £90 on a new EGT sensor and £200 on an ODB2 code reader to force DPF regen and sort some other things out). The Zoe will work out very similar a month before any depreciation is taken into consideration + significant repairs.

If I keep the merc as backup I will still have tax and insurance to fork out for but we might replace the freelander with a newish pickup truck as we need to tow sheep trailers and we can use the pickup for holiday trips and carrying bikes etc.

MG eZS ev (looks like it might be reasonable price and size SUV goes on sale in autumn),

Have you actually sat in, or better yet, driven a current MG*?
Believe me, they are very cheap in their interior construction and materials, certainly not a car I would chose to have for everyday use.
*And yes, I have, several different models, although not for long distances; I wouldn’t actually want to. Although, having said that, I’d rather have an MG than a Berlingo or a Partner, both of which I have a deep and abiding loathing for.

had a look at a Zoe today. Not as many toys as a Leaf but we are tempted by the 30 day rolling lease posted on here for £289.

It looked pretty competitive with the inclusion of insurance, maintenance, servicing etc. Add in the advantage that you can just hand it back at any time, upgrade or downgrade at any time. The only issue for a lot of people will be getting to current pick up points, but they’re a new company so I expect they’ll expand that.

what happens when the electric car proportion goes from 1% to 30% or 50%?

Edukator

Based on what’s happened in Norway where they’re up to 50% (plug in hybrid and BEVs), nothing much.

50% of new cars sold, but only 10% of the vehicles on the road are electric or PHEV (which is impressive but not what the poster was asking).