Electric Car Suggestions – Tesla ?

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  • Electric Car Suggestions – Tesla ?
  • FunkyDunc
    Member

    About the same price as a BMW 3 series of similar performance and specification

    Well might manage same 0-60. However less range, crap to drive, poor build quality and quality of materials, ugly interior, very very expensive if you crash it.

    Apart from that, yes similar I guess

    Premier Icon FuzzyWuzzy
    Subscriber

    There’s car building experience and EV technology experience though – Tesla clearly still have issues with the former. Also, from what I’ve read, their technical infrastructure and processes are a shambles – if they’ve not improved on what’s been leaked (regarding the dev processes, security processes etc.) then it seems more luck than judgement there’s not been a major issue encountered already (like every car getting bricked by a dodgy update or a security vulnerability allowing remote control to some extent). The build quality of the cars is notoriously poor compared with modern major manufacturers. The one thing Tesla has is the technology and that advantage is fast disappearing. Pretty sure if the value of the company wasn’t so over-inflated they’d have been acquired by a mainstream manufacturer long ago.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    drive, poor build quality and quality of materials, ugly interior, very very expensive if you crash it.

    Yup that describes BMWs.

    winston
    Member

    Yawn.

    38,900 PLUS 1,600 (lux tax)
    = 40,500

    TiRed
    Member

    WTF! Tesla have more experience than any other EV manufacturers in the West, followed by Nissan and Renault

    Experience of what? Customer care? Mainstream manufacture at scale across multiple continents? They have one factory. Whilst I liked the 3 I sat in in the US, their Heathrow site is 200 m from work and frankly, the Mini showroom across the road looks more impressive.

    I personally think they will be the MySpace and Yahoo of the electric vehicle world and will struggle with scale. When Toyota decide to do electric, with all their Hybrid experience, manufacturing excllence and locations, then the market will react.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    38,900 PLUS 1,600 (lux tax)
    = 40,500

    Can you provide where this figure is from as I can’t find it. If I’m wrong I’m wrong but where are you getting this from?

    Premier Icon phiiiiil
    Subscriber

    crap to drive

    Top Gear thought otherwise; they seemed to quite like the Tesla;

    WTF! Tesla have more experience than any other EV manufacturers in the West, followed by Nissan and Renault. Things are progressing fast and it seems to me that Tesla, Nissan and Renault are still at the top of their game in their respective sectors

    So what!! What has this got to do with the price of fish in Norway? The mainstream manufacturers have not been sat around with their fingers up their bums…they’ve been doing a proper job of developing and maturing the technology and will enter the market with matured technology equivalent or better than what’s out thee at the moment. These are huge corporations with huge resources compared to Tesla and have decades of experience in building and bringing to market new cars which Tesla doesn’t. Tesla hasn’t really brought anything totally unique to the market, no technology the big corporations can’t acquire or develop themselves or even create better technology. They’re ‘top of their game’ but its a new game and Tesla are small fish in a big pond full of seasoned and experienced sharks. They don’t stand a chance. The only thing protecting them from take over is their huge debt because they can’t develop, bring to market or make cars for a profit.

    There is a good video of some chap honing his Model 3 around the ring…it completely p’s all over the usual run of the mill BMW 3 series cars and their like and is right up there with the faster performance cars. They are not crap to drive or slow by any measure you care to apply.

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Subscriber

    Drac, cars with a list price over £40k attract £320 a year tax for the first 5 years, on top of any CO2-based VED.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Drac, cars with a list price over £40k attract £320 a year tax for the first 5 years, on top of any CO2-based VED.

    So not the Model 3 entry level.

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    Not actually heard of the VW ID stuff before, looks interesting.

    The 60’s camper van inspired EV looked ace, they also have said that they will bring something soon that will be well under £20k, but haven’t said which model (to my knowledge), I’m assuming a city car. Not sure yet of the pricing and dimensions of the two that I mentioned above^ in the first reply

    EDIT:rather my 2nd reply, ID Neo and crozz or something like that

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Subscriber

    For plug-in cars, the “list price” is before the plug-in car grant (£3500 for pure battery EVs) is applied.

    Base Telsa Model 3 is £41550 (so does attract the extra tax), which then reduced by £3500 grant to £38050.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Ah! Thanks Simon_G that makes sense.

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    plus £850 delivery and paperwork = £38900

    It’s not particularly clear on the website.

    Premier Icon phiiiiil
    Subscriber

    have not been sat around with their fingers up their bums…they’ve been doing a proper job of developing and maturing the technology and will enter the market with matured technology equivalent or better than what’s out thee at the moment.

    The Jaguar i-Pace, while a fine car in many other respects, has a much lower efficiency in terms of miles per battery capacity than anything Tesla makes. I’m not quite sure the evidence is there that they’re about to swoop in and steal Tesla’s lunch just yet.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Subscriber

    Tesla aren’t in this to compete. Their own remit was to prove that electric vehicles can be viable alternative to ICE cars. They’ve done that, they’ve (together with Dieselgate) caused a paradigm shift in the auto industry.

    I don’t think Tesla will cease to exist, but I can see them being bought once their share price starts to slide and thus becoming some other brands electric specific mark.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    The Jaguar i-Pace, while a fine car in many other respects, has a much lower efficiency in terms of miles per battery capacity than anything Tesla makes.

    Well it is an SUV rather than a family car.

    Premier Icon phiiiiil
    Subscriber

    Well it is an SUV rather than a family car.

    So is the Model X, but that goes further on a smaller battery while still being a much bigger car…

    Do it!!

    I’m on my second model s and would wholeheartedly recommend them.

    Premier Icon jairaj
    Subscriber

    Regards the ipace vs model X on battery size and range, what are the relative numbers?

    Just like with internal combustion engines the book number and real world number are usually different. Some manufacturers have small delta between stated and real world some have large deltas.

    If the Jag’s figures are in the ball park compared to Tesla’s then I’d say its a very good attempt at their first EV car and clearly shows at least some of the established car companies have actually been developing the tech in the background. So while they may seem quiet on the EV car front at the moment I think they are close to matching Tesla and possibly even overtaking them in the not too distant future.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    So is the Model X, but that goes further on a smaller battery while still being a much bigger car…

    It does yes but it’s also £16k more.

    surfer
    Member

    I think as someone above has already mentioned, once the major players feel they have maximised all of the revenue against their sunk costs in expensive engine management factories they will at least give Tesla a run for its money. I do think they have had it all their own way while the big players have been sweating their assets ahead of the inevitable.

    Premier Icon jairaj
    Subscriber

    And let’s not forget the EV market is limited at the moment. Many people don’t have an easy way to charge their car. No point in every manufacturer putting their cars on the market if no one is buying them. Better to develop in the background and launch a car when there is space in the market and the charging infrastructure has caught up too.

    Edukator
    Member

    It does yes but it’s also £16k more.

    And about the same amount less in the US to company buyers because of the way their tax laws favour heavier vehicles (I know it’s crazy). The UK is a tiny market, Tesla is competetive where it needs to be.

    A perhaps fairer comparison is the ipace versus the future Tesla Model Y, which in terms of load space and accomodation is closer.

    couchy
    Member

    I demo’d the Kia e-niro this week and it’s a nicely built good car to drive. Range is between 220-280 miles and looking on it’s log of journeys this seems a reality. I’d have bought one today but they have only got a demo and no cars to buy, current waiting time is 18 months. I’ve put a refundable deposit on one, in the meantime the Leaf with the 60kw battery could be the game changer. Personally I won’t go tesla as they just aren’t a reliable car, they are the JLR of the EV world 🙂

    natrix
    Member

    My neighbour has a long range Tesla Model X, the heater broke after a few months, which isn’t too bad, but it took several months with his car at the Tesla dealers for Tesla to fix it. Definitely put me off………..

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    in the meantime the Leaf with the 60kw battery could be the game changer.

    Look at it side on, it’s just a heavy facelifted and arselifted 2011 with a bigger battery and a massive price hike. It doesn’t even have proper battery management, their solution is software that throttles the charging when the battery overheats.

    Edukator
    Member

    their solution is software that throttles the charging when the battery overheats.

    So what’s your better idea for charging a car with a 70kW charger in countries where the ambient temperature will be between 40 and 50°C in Summer. Even the 22kW charging Zoé sounds more like a couple of hand driers in a motorway services when it’s over 30°C. You can’t change the laws of physics – fast charge a battery and it gets hot. You could I suppose install a 5kW heatpump and a mass of supplementary cooling thus increasing the size and weight of the battery pack, compromising performance of the car and wasting a lot of energy. I think they have it about right.

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    Liquid cooling or fan cooling to manage the battery temp, what does the Zoe have? (sounds like maybe fan coolers). Every car I’ve looked at appears to have one or the other. Look up ‘rapidgate’. many people think it’s pretty poor having nothing and effectively only being able to do one rapid charge on a long motorway journey before the battery overheats, doesn’t sound about right, to me.

    Edukator
    Member

    I agree battery cooling can an issue with the Leaf in hot climates. The latest ones use similar active cooling fans to the Zoé so should be an improvement on the early ones. Frankly in the UK it’s unlikely to be an issue except for a few hot days, maybe – does that justify all the extra weight and bulk? I think not, drive the car at legal speeds in the UK and it’s just not going to be an issue. Visit Germany in a heat wave, drive flat out on the autobahn then fast charge and yes the charge rate will slow down. If that’s a major issue for you then buy something with liquid cooling and pay somewhat more than the 37500e the Leaf+ sells for in France.

    Edit: the cooling system wouldn’t be 5kW, I’m confusing numbers with the Winter heating syetem on an EV I was reading about recently.

    he Jaguar i-Pace, while a fine car in many other respects, has a much lower efficiency in terms of miles per battery capacity than anything Tesla makes. I’m not quite sure the evidence is there that they’re about to swoop in and steal Tesla’s lunch just yet.

    Well though Jag make very good cars they have been struggling to keep pace with the mainstream manufacturers for some time, they’re a relatively new company in terms of their more recent incarnation and trying (struggling) to play catch up with the mainstream competition as well as expand at a huge rate to offer the range of models their competition does…it’s about market breadth as well as depth and Jag are a good 20 years or so down the track compared to Tesla’s 5 or so years and have a lot more financial and industrial clout behind them. But actually from the reports I’ve read the iPace p’s all over the equivalent Tesla…the quality is there and the x-factor in terms of style and class the Jag has that Tesla doesn’t. The Tesla is a trendy and stylish (but ultimately disposable) Ikea sofa…the Jag is a hand crafted quality wing-backed leather sofa. One a fashion accessory – here today gone tomorrow, one a touch of class that will last and be desirable long after the trends have moved on. No comparison really and just demonstrates what is lacking in Tesla. But Jag on their own won’t steal Tesla’s lunch…the combined efforts of Jag, BMW, MB, VW, Ford, Vauxhall, Skoda, Seat, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Porsche etc…..you get what I mean…Tesla are only one small, inexperienced, unproven, disruptive company against a whole army of experienced companies that have form, can change and adapt and develop and deliver new technologies. It’s not a case of them stealing Tesla’s lunch…they already have the lunch and Tesla are trying to steal a few crumbs off the picnic blanket. In the long run Tesla doesn’t stand a chance. Not a chance in hell. But right now they produce good EV cars and if I were buying an EV today a Tesla would be on the list. But in a couple of years time the probably wouldn’t feature at all…unless they’d been bought out by VAG and had their quality issues sorted out and could be produced and sold for a profit.

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    The latest ones use similar active cooling fans to the Zoé so should be an improvement on the early ones

    The rapidgate issue is with the 2018/19 Gen 2 leaf and they don’t have an active battery management system ie liquid or fan.

    Edukator
    Member

    By “latest ones” I was refering to Leaf + which is specified in my post with a price and is fan cooled with air taken from the A/C unit acording to the press. Where do you live, B.A.Nana, California, Saudi?

    In France the issue with the Leaf is that the on-board charger is only 6kW. There are very few Chademo chargers but Type 2 with 13-22kW are everywhere, at least 10 within 10km of my home, the nearest Chademo I’ve seen is in the next town and has been out of order for at least 5 months.

    Premier Icon phiiiiil
    Subscriber

    In the long run Tesla doesn’t stand a chance.

    You may be right, but a bit of me wonders whether this is exactly what mechanical hard drive manufacturers were saying about SSDs; they were massive companies and could easily pivot when needed to beat the upstarts… yet today, they’ve mostly all gone.

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    In the long run Tesla doesn’t stand a chance. Not a chance in hell.

    really? someone better tell wall street…

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    Where do you live, B.A.Nana, California, Saudi?

    The very first case of Rapidgate was reported by a Jonathan Porterfield who lives in Orkney and was delivering a latest 2018 Leaf from Leicester to Orkney. So he was driving past my house, yes.

    I don’t even know why I’m carrying on with this, all my opinion is that the Leaf+ isn’t a game changing car, it was in 2011 however. IMO I don’t think a facelift and a bigger battery warrants that title. eniro / kona could have been a game changer with the massive in=crease in range, but no one can bloody buy it.

    Edukator
    Member

    So quoting the man in the video, after the second fast charge (by this time you’ve done about 750km) it knocks the charge rate down to 22kW so the charge time will then be an hour and thre quarters. A non problem then unless you are into driving for dangerously long periods without an hour and a half break. If you were a truck driver that would be a legal obligation.

    I fail to see the problem unless you’re a psycho-rigid dick from Hinkley. 😉 Are you like him? Up till now I’ve I’ve liked you because of your pseudo – in French Nana means attractive young woman and B.A. is short for “bonne action” (giving a helping hand).

    Edit: and the Leaf+ plus has a fan and air-con cooled air – you’d buy a Leaf+ for long jounrneys and a standard Leaf for commuting, well I would anyhow.

    B.A.Nana
    Member

    B.A.Nana was an abrasive punk in a punk band called Crass 😉

    Edukator
    Member

    So I see, most amusing

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    VW have announced details on the ID and it’s a serious contender to wake up Tesla.

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/volkswagen-id3-name-confirmed-for-golf-sized-ev

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