I sold a boat propeller for £250 about 3 weeks ago. Shipping description stated it would be sent by Collectplus Economy, payment was made by PayPal.

I shipped the prop immediately but actually went for Collectplus standard service (bought through ebay) so it would get there a bit quicker.

A couple of days ago I get an email from the buyer asking when the prop was going to be delivered! I check the tracking which showed it as being delivered on the 12th April. I inform the buyer of these facts – he says that there would not have been anyone there when it was delivered. I suggest he should have know when it would arrive as ebay would have sent him the tracking number.

He’s now contacted Collectplus who say that it was left on the doorstep and that I should contact them to start a claim. I didn’t pay for the extra insurance so I think it’s only covered for £50.

Am I likely to be liable for this even though Collectplus are sure it was delivered?

edit: It seems a bit sus that he waited nearly three weeks before asking where it was!

Yes.

Am I likely to be liable for this even though Collectplus are sure it was delivered?

Yes you are liable for it as the seller. The buyers contract is with you not Collectplus.

Unfortunately you are responsible. If the courier are saying they left it on his doorstep then it wouldn’t be that surprising that it’s been nicked.

Why are you going to close your paypal account?

As regards the waiting three weeks, it may be sus, but equally it’s the kind of thing I’d do just through being slack. Good luck.

If they don’t have a signature then I guess there’s no proof it was actually delivered. I’d think eBay would side with the buyer and refund him in full.

Which leaves you needing to claim from collect+. If it only covers you up to £50 then it sounds like you’ll be out of pocket. Not good.

And there’s no way if knowing if the person actually has the prop or not which is gutting.

sorry, I reckon you’re ****

for a highish value item you want (preferably) signed for and (def) insured IMO

Well, the buyer could be the totally innocent part in this if his description is true. And the delay could be him giving you the benefit of the doubt hoping it would turn up.

As it stands you have an agreement with the courier to deliver the item, not the buyer, so if it has gone missing or wasn’t delivered to the right place/person that’s for you to take up with the courier.

Collectplus who say that it was left on the doorstep

That doesn’t count as ‘delivered’ in my opinion, that’s ‘abandoned’.

The description of tracking here is a bit ambiguous, normally with tracked parcels someone has to sign for them, and they should only be left somewhere (secure) if a secure location has been agreed. If there is a signature then that’s a very different situation to the parcel just being left somewhere, I’d get onto the courier to clarify at this point…

How much extra was the insured option…?

…. but I have proof that it was delivered. How can I be responsible for a theft from his property?

That doesn’t count as ‘delivered’ in my opinion, that’s ‘abandoned’.

This, refund the buyer and pursue Collectplus.

Better hope they don’t close their paypal account though!

I use them – get a signature and pay for insurance – cost me a fiver for £300 cover on my last sale.

ebay only requires a signature over £750, so youre probably in the clear if it states delivery was made

Is the POD a signature of someone accepting the delivery? If not, then it’s not really worth anything

Sounds like you’ve had a courier lose a propeller for you for £50, if that was the insurance cover for the Collectplus package you chose to use.

Sending someone an item worth ~£250, I’d want postage product that required a signature from the recipient and insurance again loss/breakage for the £250. This is why Royal Mail’s Special Delivery costs more (and should be used for anything valued at more than £40 IIRC be sent through Royal mail), to offset the times when claims are made against something happening to packages.

Doesn’t excuse parcel being dumped on doorstep, if this really was the case, posties officially have much stricter security rules about where they are supposed to leave mail and parcels.

I suspect eBay / Paypal will demand proof of delivery and consider it case closed.

It might be the one time they side with the seller.

Collect plus have been excellent for me – they have two optional extras on their delivery prices though – signed for and £300 insurance costs £5 extra, just a signature is £1 extra.

Good point about the safe place thing. I know companies like DPD allow you add an option to deliver to a “Safe place” but in doing that the recipient then accepts responsibility

sharkbait – Member

…. but I have proof that it was delivered. How can I be responsible for a theft from his property?

The thief is of course liable – can you find him?

Liability then falls on you – but you didn’t take out enough cover to insure the parcel.

but I have proof that it was delivered

do you? It’s not clear form your original post if it was the buyer that told you it was left on the doorstep or the courier that told you.

If you’ve got proof from the courier that they left a parcel in a publicly accessible place without prior agreement then you have proof that they didn’t deliver it, they abandoned it. Refund the buyer and take it up with the courier.

If you have proof that it was delivered and signed for then that’s different.

If all you’ve got is the buyer saying something then get onto the courier yourself and get more info.

How can I be responsible for a theft from his property?

Well obviously you’re not, but you might be responsible for sorting out the buyer. The cockish answer is “because you chose a bad courier”

It’s frustrating when stuff like this happens but you need to remember that the buyer has no contract with the courier, you do, and it was your responsibility to get it to him safely. It doesn’t make you responsible for the theft/poor delivery, the courier is responsible for that, but you’re responsible for sorting your buyer out, the courier is responsible for sorting you out.

If eBay side with you grand, if they don’t then you’ve learned an expensive lesson about under insuring.

You’re liable, unless CollectPlus have broken the terms of their t&cs by just leaving it on a doorstep?

^^^ it’s possible, on their website they talk about leaving it in a “safe place”. Is the doorstep, in full view of everyone, “safe”. Not IMO. Might take an argument though! Worth pursuing IMO.

Obviously in hindsight the easiest thing to do would’ve been paying the extra quid for a signature, or the fiver to be fully insured.

EDIT: this is on their website

our driver will try to leave your parcel in a safe place and leave a card to explain where the parcel is. (To protect the safety of your goods we have certain guidelines in place as to what counts as a ‘safe place’).

If the driver cannot find a safe place, they will keep the parcel and leave a card with a telephone number for redelivery to be arranged.

couldn’t (with a quick google) actually find the exact definition of “safe place” though

I didn’t pay for the extra insurance so I think it’s only covered for £50

Probably don’t need me to tell you this but if it goes wrong, you have to accept that you’re only ever going to get back a maximum of £50. I guess you didn’t request a signature on delivery either?

If you did request a signature and they haven’t got one, or have got one that’s not the buyer’s then you might have more comeback.

Imagine it the other way round and you bought an item online which was dumped on your doorstep with no signature or acceptance and was then stolen from doorstep.

Would that be your fault or the place you bought it from?
Should you lose the money or should the place you bough it from?

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/seller-protection-faq.html#What if the buyer received the item but still files an ‘item not received’ case?

As regards the waiting three weeks, it may be sus, but equally it’s the kind of thing I’d do just through being slack. Good luck.

I’d start off not wanting to ring any unnecessary bells and then probably get distracted.

I realise that’s me being lazy/crap but doesn’t mean I/they got the item.

I’ve had enough abandoned stuff by couriers and even abandoned next door etc.

OP are you sure you sent him the real thing? I thought it was just a prop?

Interstingly if you buy the postage through ebay you do not get the option to pay extra for insurance or a signature.

I’m £40 better off already as the sale price was £210 and not £250 as I thought.

The CP T&Cs state that compensation is payable for items that are lost or damaged – my parcel is neither as they say it’s been delivered. So potentially I wouldn’t get anything!

From the T&Cs
If We are not able to deliver the Parcel, You authorise Us to try and deliver the Parcel to an alternative address close to the Relevant Delivery Point or to leave the Parcel in a safe place and (if successful) We shall leave at the Relevant Delivery Point details of where We have delivered the Parcel.

Even if they did leave it on the doorstep there should have been a note left.

Not wanting to sound rude, but £250 and you didn’t send it signed for?

I’ve had enough abandoned stuff by couriers and even abandoned next door etc.

Me too. I only now buy items where they use Royal Mail or better still DPD. Any hint of MyHermes and the like and I shop elsewhere.

What proof will eBay accept from me when buyers open an item not received case?

We require proof of delivery. You will need online documentation from a postal company that includes all of the following:
A status of “delivered” (or equivalent) and the date of delivery.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).
Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £750 or more.
For cross-border transactions we may also ask you for proof of shipment.
We strongly encourage you to provide the postal service you use in your listings. Providing the dispatch time in your listings is mandatory, and is important to assess how we will deal with the buyer’s case. We also encourage you to use trackable postage services that include delivery and, where required, signature confirmation, and upload the tracking information into My eBay.
Boxes ticked….. looking more promising.

Not wanting to sound rude, but £250 and you didn’t send it signed for?

That was my first thought. The same thing happened to me a few years back but I was able to claim back from Parcelforce and refund the buyer.

Fromn their T&Cs:

to leave the Parcel in a safe place

What does ‘safe place’ mean? Does it being stolen mean that it by definition isn’t safe?

Boxes ticked….. looking more promising.

Promising for you. Not for the poor buyer who’s £210 out of pocket!

From the T&Cs
If We are not able to deliver the Parcel, You authorise Us to try and deliver the Parcel to an alternative address close to the Relevant Delivery Point or to leave the Parcel in a safe place and (if successful) We shall leave at the Relevant Delivery Point details of where We have delivered the Parcel.

Good luck OP, hopefully you’ll get somewhere with the courier*, but the above quote highlights why you need to be careful, as based on the you have agreed to their terms and the option of it being left somewhere else.

I’d still dispute the safeness of their safe place though, they must have guidelines/examples of what constitutes a safe place, and ‘doorstep’ is unlikely to be one of them.

* but bear in mind you need to look after your buyer regardless, the right thing to do in this case is make sure they are refunded, whether that’s by you or eBay is a matter of process.

It is your responsibility to refund the buyer, but I’d claim against the courier. The limit on the insurance is irrelevant if they have not followed the terms of their contract with you, which they didn’t. They didn’t leave it in a safe place, they left it on the step, and they didn’t delivery a note saying where it was. Insurance is for damage or accident, not their own negligence.

Not for the poor buyer who’s £210 out of pocket!

I agree – it’s sucky 🙁
From my point of view I’ve fulfilled my duties – I sent the item on time using the shipping service described in the advert. I bought my postage through eBay and used a tracked system when I could have used something that wasn’t tracked. CP says it’s been delivered into his porch (not doorstep, my mistake…. and a quick look on google maps shows the house to be on a small, quiet looking cul de sac with little passing traffic) – job done.

If it has been pinched then I feel sorry for him, but of course there’s always the chance that he’s tried the prop, found it’s not good for his purpose and is trying it on.

I’ve sent quite a lot of stuff through CollectPlus and it’s odd it’s only the most expensive thing I’ve ever sent that’s ‘not been delivered’

Best of luck sorting.I Stopped selling on Ebay after a similar thing.
All those mentioning insurance that is not always straightforward, I sent an expensive component to be anodized and after a while it never came back so tried ringing the company,number not recognized,bit of searching found out they had gone bust 2 days before I actually sent it(had used for years), got onto Royal Fail and asked for proof of delivery as I had paid for insurance up to £500, they produced the guys signature to say he had it , i said how could you have delivered it they don`t exist , “we have delivered it to his forwarding address” I thought great where is it “We are not allowed to disclose this , if we did we would be breaching his rights”.But you have not delivered it to where I asked , yes but we have delivered it to who you asked at his new address.They will wriggle out of anything. Never saw it / him again just had to machine a new component at a cost of about £500

I bought my postage through eBay and used a tracked system when I could have used something that wasn’t tracked.

I suppose it depends what you advertised as the P&P….

CollectPlus economy.