Not wanting to sound rude, but £250 and you didn’t send it signed for?

And what would that achieve? Signatures mean nothing given that they are now a completely unrepresentative squiggle drawn by a finger on a screen.
They can easily be done by anyone.

And what would that achieve? Signatures mean nothing given that they are now a completely unrepresentative squiggle drawn by a finger on a screen.
They can easily be done by anyone

A lot more than no signature.

Insurance is to cover both the buyer and seller. Someone is going to be out of pocket and it’s probably going to be you.

Not for the poor buyer who’s £210 out of pocket!
I agree – it’s sucky

am i being naive here? why would the buyer be out of pocket? i just assumed youd be refunding him and claiming the value back from collect+/ebay/paypal/whoever to refund yourself, no?

And what would that achieve? Signatures mean nothing given that they are now a completely unrepresentative squiggle drawn by a finger on a screen.

That’s the courier’s problem.

claiming the value back from collect+/ebay/paypal/whoever to refund yourself, no?

Who do Ebay/Paypal care? Collect + might give £50 though.

Collect + might give £50 though.

i thought OP had a valid claim as they hadnt left it in a safe place so had broken their contract? in which case itd be full amount wouldnt it?

Why should I refund him just because he says the package wasn’t delivered? – that really would be naive.
CP say it has been delivered – for all we know the driver may well have handed it to the buyer personally and he’s scamming me!

If he wants to take it up with eBay and open an ‘item not recieved’ case then that’s fine but I can supply eBay with all the information they state in their Seller Protection FAQs that they require from me.

If they find in his favour then fine I’ll refund and get what I can out of CP, but until then I’m doing nothing.

With regret in this case I hope the OP is the one out of pocket. Unless you offered a range of delivery options with the potential ‘danger’ of this option highlighted it’s over to you in my opinion. It’s not reasonable to expect the buyer to delve into the T&Cs of the service you are offering on their website. Did you say you were not going to insure the prop for more than the base value? You you told him you were using collect plus economy – why would he know that you went with the cheapskate £50 option when you knew the goods were worth far more. Your error – you effectively elected to insure yourself.

Why should I refund him just because he says the package wasn’t delivered?

It was not delivered. It was (apparently) placed on his door step. Collect plus might call that delivered but imo unless the recipient has specifically chosen that option/risk that is not delivered, just dumped in the general vicinity of the destination.

CP say it has been delivered – for all we know the driver may well have handed it to the buyer personally and he’s scamming me!

That’s tin foil hat territory! The driver is not going to put ‘doorstep’ unless he was in on it.

Did you say you were not going to insure the prop for more than the base value?

eBay does not give you the option to increase the insurance when you buy through them

It was not delivered.

How do you know that it wasn’t delivered… just because the buyer says so?

It was (apparently) placed on his door step.

The buyer said it was in the porch, not on the doorstep.

The driver is not going to put ‘doorstep’ unless he was in on it.

This/all information has come from the buyer, not from collectplus – I’ve had no contact with collectplus.

How do you know that it wasn’t delivered… just because the buyer says so?

Yes. The best you have (3rd hand as you have not bothered to check for yourself 🙄 ) is it was plonked close to the delivery address. Recipient ‘might’ have picked it up but you have no proof of that sadly.

This/all information has come from the buyer, not from collectplus – I’ve had no contact with collectplus.

Dear god – get a grip. You selected CP, their contract is with you. You put the item in their care. And you have left the running around to the buyer and got as far as moaning on a forum without even making contact with the company you subcontracted to finish the job for you yet.

Sorry, you are not helping yourself here. Man up and take some responsibility.

Why should I refund him just because he says the package wasn’t delivered? – that really would be naive.

What is naïve is not realising Paypal will just take the money from you and give it back to him. You cannot prove he received it and it is 100% your problem to deal with and lose out on.

You cannot prove he received it and it is 100% your problem to deal with and lose out on.

Actually he cannot prove that he has not received it.
I have all the proof that ebay and PayPal require for seller protection
How do we know that this guy has not had the delivery when the evidence points to the fact that he has?

I agree with Sharkbait here – he used an Ebay provided service and the Ebay provided service says it was delivered so surely it is now the buyers problem? How could the seller claim on insurance for an item lost in the post when the postal service used says it was delivered?

Well it’s not black and white from either point of view, but the OP should have been in touch with the courier.

I predict his/her classifieds adverts will be quiet in future.

I’d be interested in the outcome of all this 🙂

I predict his/her classifieds adverts will be quiet in future.

? It was an ebay auction! Don’t think I’ve sold anything here for >5 years!

but the OP should have been in touch with the courier.

You think? I can imagine the conversation:
me: Hi, I’d like to make a claim for an item that’s been lost
CP: Ok, what’s the tracking number?
me: [gives tracking number]
CP: That item was delivered three weeks ago
me: yes, I know but I’d still like to make a claim
CP: yeah, right, but you see we’ve delivered the package to the addressee.
me: yes I can see that… but I’d still like to make a claim
CP: Goodbye

I’ve decided the last things I sold on ebay will be the last.

There is just too much risk involved and then all the hassle keeping the buyers happy so you don’t get bad feedback. It feels like you have to jump through hoops chasing couriers and troublesome buyers for too little reward.

I’ll just use gumtree and face-to-face sales in future. Put something on keenly priced and it’s usually gone quickly with no hassle or fees.

Based on my own experienced of ebay once the dust settles I think the OP is going to be £160 out-of-pocket.

You think? I can imagine the conversation:
me: Hi, I’d like to make a claim for an item that’s been lost
CP: Ok, what’s the tracking number?
me: [gives tracking number]
CP: That item was delivered three weeks ago
me: yes, I know but I’d still like to make a claim
CP: yeah, right, but you see we’ve delivered the package to the addressee.
me: yes I can see that… but I’d still like to make a claim
CP: Goodbye

He’s now contacted Collectplus who say that it was left on the doorstep and that I should contact them to start a claim. I didn’t pay for the extra insurance so I think it’s only covered for £50.

Maybe I’m reading this wrong but the way you write this it sounds like the buyer has been told you need to contact them to start a claim. So why do you think the conversation will go as you think? And why did you mention it being covered by any amount if you are now adamant delivery is considered made and they would laugh at you if you tried to make a claim?

If i were the buyer and the courier left it on the doorstep and it got nicked, I’d pursue it via the small claims process. I think you’d loose as the court is unlikely to think that leaving it on a doorstep means delivery. And the courier is acting on behalf of you…

Actually he cannot prove that he has not received it.

He shouldn’t have to, you can’t prove a negative. You should be able to prove it has been delivered. At the moment you can’t because, in your own words:

I’ve had no contact with collectplus.

Why the hell not!? it’s you that contracted them to deliver your parcel, the fact that the buyer has contacted them already is neither here nor there.

The buyer should have contacted you and *you* should have said “I’m terribly sorry, I’ll look into this for you” and contacted the courier.

You then go from there based on what you find out from the company you contracted to deliver your parcel.

It may still turn out he’s trying to scam you, but you need to do your bit for sure. It might be that he really is the unlucky sod who is sitting at home £210 out of pocket with no item because *your* courier failed to deliver.

He could well be on propellertrackworld moaning about how he’s paid some guy for an item that’s not turned up and the seller isn’t doing their bit to sort it out.

You should be able to prove it has been delivered

I can… the tracking says it’s been delivered…. or is that not enough?

I can… the tracking says it’s been delivered…. or is that not enough?

I wouldn’t say so.

I can… the tracking says it’s been delivered…. or is that not enough?

I thought you said that the buyer told you it was left in the porch, does your tracking say that?

And you still haven’t said if there’s a signature (assuming not) so buyer can quite legitimately challenge your claim.

At the moment it sounds like you’re assuming the buyer is a scammer, and not taking any steps yourself to contact the courier to find out any more. If the buyer said the courier told them it was left unattended then the least you could do is contact the courier to verify that.

I may come across like a dog with a bone on this but I have been in the exact situation your buyer is in on a couple of occasions, where I have purchased something and the item has not arrived.

In one case I contacted the seller and they did the decent thing, refunded me and took it up with their courier, I don’t actually know what happened in the end, but as far as I’m concerned that’s the end of it, I bought something, I never saw it so I quite rightly got refunded.

In the other case I contacted the seller who replied with basically the same as you ‘tracking says it was delivered’ and then stone-walled me. I had to open a PP dispute and he said the same to PP, he provided a copy+paste from the tracking which said it was ‘left in secure location’. I Then had to spend days arguing that there was no secure location outside my address, that I hadn’t agreed to that and that even if the item was ‘delivered’ it wasn’t delivered ‘to me’ or an authorised person acting on my behalf and that it was his issue to sort out. Eventually got accused of taking the item and trying to scam him. Fortunately I got my money back through paypal.

I wouldn’t say so.

Try telling that to the HMRC, police etc – posting a letter/notice (even ones that are not tracked) is enough to assume it has been delivered – try claiming you didn’t receive a notice for speeding and you would be bang out of luck.

Try telling that to the HMRC, police etc – posting a letter/notice (even ones that are not tracked) is enough to assume it has been delivered – try claiming you didn’t receive a notice for speeding and you would be bang out of luck.

I’m sure there are many other examples of things that are not the same.

In this case, the buyer contracted the seller to supply and deliver the item. Imagine buying something from Amazon that didn’t turn up, then Amazon passing the buck saying “tough luck, take it up with the courier”. Do you think that would wash?

I can… the tracking says it’s been delivered…. or is that not enough?

No, it is not. What exactly does it say?
It wasn’t signed for and it was not there when buyer arrived home. No way is that the buyers problem in any way whatsoever.

You need to put yourself in the buyers position as I and others have pointed out.

Buyer knows the system and arrived home to see package left unsigned for on the doorstep, he’s then sold the item on, then claimed it hasn’t arrived three weeks later knowing he will get a refund.

He’s made a few hundred quidz and you will get your £50 compo.

DTA man, DTA

I thought you said that the buyer told you it was left in the porch, does your tracking say that?

For “item not received” cases, if sellers post the item within their stated handling time and provide a valid proof of delivery for the item, eBay is likely to decide in their favour.

“Proof of delivery” is online documentation from a postal company that includes all of the following:

A status of “delivered” (or equivalent in the country to which the item was delivered) and the date of delivery.
The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).
Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £750 or more.

just ring eBay, explain it all

Sharkbait wins.

That’s shoddy, to say the least.

What’s shoddy?

What’s shoddy?

That a courier tracker is accepted as proof of delivery. I’ve had the same when parcels have been left by the front door in full view of any passer-by. It’s only luck that the parcels haven’t been stolen.

Buyer should have contacted you sooner. I usually ask for feedback if item is showing as delivered.

Wasn’t there a buyer on here who lost out when the courier handed over some expensive electronic item to some passer by who signed for it.E bay said it had been signed for and sided with the seller so the buyer had to pursue it with the courier.

What does “Delivered to customer” mean? That the courier left it outside their house.

The customer has not signed for it/accepted delivery have they. I had the same happen to me a few weeks back where the courier apparently threw the parcel over my fence but it was stated as “Delivered”

Guessing it was stolen so called company I bought it from and got another one sent to me next day.

Yep I’m hoping eBay decide in buyers favour 😀

Why are you going to close your PayPal account though?

Wasn’t there a buyer on here who lost out when the courier handed over some expensive electronic item to some passer by who signed for it

Our local Parcelforce driver told me he got disciplined for an incident when he turned up at a house with parcel, asked bloke on drive if his name was …. guy said yes and signed for and took parcel. Of course the parcel was never seen again, turned out to be an expensive laptop. Couriers are supposed to ask you for your name first. Not that that’s great as even if it’s different they still tend to hand it over as in a rush to next job.

Related to OP issue, last week I was waiting at traffic lights passing through a posh village. There was a row of nice cottages right by the road. Several had parcels left by their front doors in full view. Can see how things do go missing. And no I didn’t.