Drink driving technicality

If police wanted an easy life nicking drunken people for popping out to their cars, they could just park up at any wedding venue and fill their boots!

Was this a serious question form the OP? Surely no-one actually thinks along those lines do they?

not zero – there’s no need to be in the car

That’s not what it says in the OP’s link, from what appears to be a well experienced law firm in such matters.

Where do you draw the line when it comes to “in charge” of a vehicle if it includes being outside the vehicle?

Standing near the car having a fag? At the bar having a drink with the keys in your pocket? Asleep in a hotel bed with the keys beside you on the bedside table?

Yeah, but I’m not a dyed in the wool cynic…😀

What if I can’t afford a hotel room and plan to sleep in my car?

Drunk? Car parked on a highway? Visible to passing (police) cars? Don’t try this. Or if you do, don’t sit in the driver’s seat.

Peak STW achievement award unlocked

FFS. Time to reopen that “other thread”. Stop giving Pistonheads more ammunition.

If police wanted an easy life nicking drunken people for popping out to their cars, they could just park up at any wedding venue and fill their boots!

Maybe, and I suspect you are totally correct, generally speaking, but it does raise a question over discretion and ambiguity in law.

Take two scanarios… both blow tests over the legal limit.

(I’ve worded these scenarios specifically to make a point before anyone gets all ‘huffy’)

A) Posh white guy at an expensive wedding venue in the costwolds, probably just getting his iphone charger out from the boot of the Jag.

B) The MET spot a ‘man of colour’ asleep in a Corsa in a layby, your nicked, sunny jim!

“They have to prove an intention to drive, being booked into the hotel, recovering a bag from the boot isn’t showing intention. You won’t get done.”

Technically it’s the other way round. The punter has to prove he wasn’t going to drive.

“For the purposes of subsection (2) above, a person shall be deemed not to have been in charge of a  vehicle if he proves that at the material time the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving it so long as he remained unfit to drive through drink or drugs.”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/4

So at a hotel with a room booked. Retrieving a bag from the boot. You are good to go IMO.

Asleep in the drivers seat in a layby with  the keys in your possession?  Not so good. Regardless of your colour.

Technically it’s the other way round. The punter has to prove he wasn’t going to drive.

Nothing technical about it, for a prosecution they have to prove the intent and the alleged prove there was no intent. 

Can’t be arsed reading three pages. Has anybody suggested breaking in and stealing the stereo to make it look like you’re just a drunk criminal?

Nothing technical about it, for a prosecution they have to prove the intent and the alleged prove there was no intent. 

Not actually true; the prosecution have to prove you were in charge of the vehicle whilst unfit through drink or drugs, not that you “intended” to drive. It is a strange one & most cops I know would rather watch to see if you drive then deal with you accordingly.

Being in charge is having the means to propulsion, such as the keys in your possession whilst in close proximity, sat in the car etc.

The defence is that you must prove there was no chance you will drive whilst unfit. As already said above, retrieving a bag out of a car parked within a hotel car park, in which you have a room booked will probably mean it’ll go no further than a conversation with the copper who stopped to talk with you.

There surely must be a sweepstake on Pepipoo on how many pages they can goad us throbbers into discussing this nonsense.

Don’t listen to me. Try a lawyer. The burden of proof is on the driver to prove no intention to drive.

“To be convicted for drunk in charge, it is necessary for the prosecution to merely prove that you were in charge of a motor vehicle and that at this time you were above the legal limit to drive. The burden of proof then shifts to you to show the Court that although you were in charge whilst above the prescribed limit, you did not in fact have intention to drive and you would need to prove this on the balance of probabilities.

Drunk in Charge

There surely must be a sweepstake on Pepipoo on how many pages they can goad us throbbers into discussing this nonsense.

My guess is 5, btw.

I’m a sovereign citizen, I’m not driving drunk for commerce…

Plug your phone into the car, open chatgpt, AI is now in charge of the vehicle therefore you can’t be.

My phone would just laugh, ask what the funny windy looking handles in the rear doors are, call me grandad and hand the keys back.

Wow, didn’t intend this to be such a hot topic or to create such apparent anger in some. You need to chill out a bit.

I was aware of the law about ‘in charge of’ and while it’s a slim chance, was just asking if there is a way to show no intent beyond what’s already in place. I mean, clearly having the bag in the boot vs in the car itself and so on.

If it was a proper hotel then yes, of course I could leave at reception but it’s a pub with rooms, that doesn’t open until after I’ve arranged to meet friends in a different part of town. I’m not made of money!!

…it’s a pub with rooms

A pub car park isn’t a public place when the pub is closed Sandy v Martin [1974] Crim LR 258

Don’t rely on it, it’ll depend on the facts in your particular case! Best to take precautions as described ^^

Kill all the police

Don’t listen to me. Try a lawyer. The burden of proof is on the driver to prove no intention to drive.

“To be convicted for drunk in charge, it is necessary for the prosecution to merely prove that you were in charge of a motor vehicle and that at this time you were above the legal limit to drive. The burden of proof then shifts to you to show the Court that although you were in charge whilst above the prescribed limit, you did not in fact have intention to drive and you would need to prove this on the balance of probabilities.

Ah! I see I always took it was a proof of intent to drive. 

To be convicted for drunk in charge, it is necessary for the prosecution to merely prove that you were in charge of a motor vehicle and that at this time you were above the legal limit to drive

This is the crux of the issue.. I’m pretty much always technically  ‘in charge’ of a car, because I’ll more likely than not, have the key to one in my pocket.

Am I being pedantic? Yes. It is a legal matter, though, and the law should be more clear, and not seemingly rely on discretion.

A pub car park isn’t a public place when the pub is closed Sandy v Martin [1974] Crim LR 258

The OP doesn’t mention anything about retrieving the bag until after the pub has closed.

As I understand it the bag will be retrieved at the same time as the checking in. How will it be possible to check-in if the pub is closed?

I can see with all the legal ramifications, and all the contradictory advice, the OP spending the night in custody.

Probably best not to risk it. Just have soft drinks or spend the night sleeping at home.

If police wanted an easy life nicking drunken people for popping out to their cars, they could just park up at any wedding venue and fill their boots!

This whole thread is totally nuts given it’s a scenario that will never happen in real life. Police filling their boots at a wedding would make a brilliant Michell and Webb sketch though.

Anyway OP go out and get pissed and get your bag out the boot. Watch out you don’t get struck down by lightning though as that’s more likely than being knocked up for DD.

I’d simply remove the firing pins when I parked up. Then replace with smaller ones that look the same but are a mm shorter so the car won’t fire.
Looks the same to the layman but without a micrometer know one can tell.

Technically having the keys with you is in charge as you could drive however if you are walking to the car and only opening the boot taking out the bag closing the bot and walking back to the hotel then any officer watching you would see you have no intention of driving.

The thing to think about is the morning after as it is possible to be over the limit the following morning if you have been drinking heavily.

Piss in the boot of the car, makes a nice change from pissing in a hotel kettle.
That fur in the bottom isn’t from hard water…..

Don’t have the keys on you as you approach the car.  Instead,  blip the fob to unlock when at a distance, if you can do it from your room then run down to the car before it relocks that’s perfect if not blip from the doorway to the pub,  put the key in the adjacent fleet flowerpot/ window sill/ ground,  then dash to the car.  Once you’ve got your bag,  collect your key and lock the vehicle. 

I’ve got a weekend away planned with some friends and have booked a room in a local pub-hotel.

Worst humblebrag ever.

 You claim to have friends AND money!

not enough to stay in a proper hotel with a reception though.

The thing to think about is the morning after as it is possible to be over the limit the following morning if you have been drinking heavily

Has already been covered earlier but I don’t drink heavily, and despite that even 4 or 5 pints between a pub lunch and then after the game will probably see me flaked out by about 8pm. But yes, a very relevant point and for proper non-lightweights a far more likely scenario than the bag in boot / drunk in charge.

Just go to the match in your jammies and sod the bag.

You can borrow my 40 year old Land Rover if you are really stuck. It has seperate keys for the door locks and the ignition. Just take the door key out to the car park and leave the ignition key in your room. Job done.

@scapegoat/ @poly on attitude test, if you were to spot police would you just be better approaching them and explaining what is going on so they don’t get the wrong idea? Seems reasonable from where I’m standing.

Also where does a mate standing with the key operating the locks some distance away come into it?

@scapegoat/ @poly on attitude test, if you were to spot police would you just be better approaching them and explaining what is going on so they don’t get the wrong idea? Seems reasonable from where I’m standing.

Practically speaking if you’ve got to the point where you’re talking to the police in these circumstances then you’re already at a fork in the decision-making road. Stay beneath the radar, grab your bag, lock the car and head back inside. For a police officer that “Seems reasonable from where I’m standing.”

If you’re asked then explain, room booked, sleeping there, etc. It’s a sight easier getting an attempting to drive/over prescribed limit conviction in Court than it is to show DIC and the conversation will probably end there.

Also where does a mate standing with the key operating the locks some distance away come into it?

How can I be doing any of the above if I don’t have my car keys?

@scapegoat/ @poly on attitude test, if you were to spot police would you just be better approaching them and explaining what is going on so they don’t get the wrong idea? Seems reasonable from where I’m standing.

Practically speaking if you’ve got to the point where you’re talking to the police in these circumstances then you’re already at a fork in the decision-making road. Stay beneath the radar, grab your bag, lock the car and head back inside. For a police officer that “Seems reasonable from where I’m standing.”

If you’re asked then explain, room booked, sleeping there, etc. It’s a sight easier getting an attempting to drive/over prescribed limit conviction in Court than it is to show DIC and the conversation will probably end there.

Also where does a mate standing with the key operating the locks some distance away come into it?

How can I be doing any of the above if I don’t have my car keys?

Pepipoo

What is this?

OP, purchase a trailer or roof box specifically for your bag. That way you don’t need your car keys and you will be even more skint from poor fuel economy and the purchasing of a trailer or roof box!

How….

What….

How has this happened… 😣😄😂

DrP

Just use the boot unlock button leaving the doors locked.

if you were to spot police would you just be better approaching them and explaining what is going on so they don’t get the wrong idea?

I’m not a police officer but if I were and someone interrupted me to tell me what they were doing wasn’t suspicious, I’d think that was…suspicious. 🤔

“There’s nothing in the boot, honestly officer”.

That’s not what it says in the OP’s link, from what appears to be a well experienced law firm in such matters.

@ernielynch – that’s not what it actually says in their advert for finding ways to get you off.  For brevity I’ve quoted here only the start and finish of that section:

A driver is considered ‘in charge’ of a vehicle when they are not necessarily driving the vehicle but has the ability to control its use. This is a situation that can be subjective and open to interpretation, and the exact circumstances of each case can greatly influence this definition……The courts will look at the entirety of the circumstances to decide whether or not an individual was ‘in charge’ of a vehicle at a specific time.

They list factors which the “wrong answers” to would make it very difficult to argue you were not in charge (in drivers seat, keys in ignition etc).  The corollary does not automatically follow. But the court will decide, assisted to some extent by case law, on whether you were or were not in charge.  The law of being “in charge” goes back a long way (you can be drunk in charge of a horse or pedal cycle too!).  The “right” answers to those questions support the defence that you were not intending to drive but not necessarily that you were not actually in charge of the vehicle.  

@scapegoat/ @poly on attitude test, if you were to spot police would you just be better approaching them and explaining what is going on so they don’t get the wrong idea? Seems reasonable from where I’m standing.

I’m not a cop (I think someone further up implied I was).  If you are drunk enough to get their attention, then I’d say there’s a good chance that your witty banter and reciting your hazy memory of the law are more likely to get you in trouble than just being sensible!  Most cops are actually quite nice people – but they have to deal with the dregs of society which means when they put the uniform on they can inherit an attitude that doesn’t mix well with drunks and know-it-alls.  

Also where does a mate standing with the key operating the locks some distance away come into it?

sounds like a good defence that you were not in charge, unless you do something stupid like get in and let the handbrake off!