Hi Emsz

Not sure on the lady front as I think the guy stuff seems to be more frowned upon. Obviously religion is male oriented.

The answer I got was very political, I am afraid. I got the feeling that Phil’s pager had gone off to keep on message. I am obviously damned due to loving someone. I hope I can take some marshmallows and potatoes in case I get peckish.

Perhaps you will be ok. Go on, take a chance! I will stock up on taters for you and your gf just in case.

… and then I’ll tell you how your life can be better if you got a suzuki 350

Calum Gilhooley, first sketch in, priceless. Unfortunately not on youtube, just 4OD.

If you get bothered by JW just say you are disowned they will never visit you again

I’m most upset, I don’t even get to have a chat with them. I open the door, put on on my happy to see people face and they usually sort of look at their shoes for a few seconds, give me a ” oh dear god, this one has fallen way to far to save” look and then make their excuses and leave. 😥

Poor Tazzy. 😥

D’you want a nice song to cheer you up?

Had a couple of run-ins with the JW’s over the years, one that sticks in my mind was as i was going to the pub one night and two very demurely-dressed young ladies came up to me. Now, bearing in mind this was Rochdale town centre on a summers evening they stood out a mile and i thought “Gotta be yanks” and they were, American JW missionaries.
They asked if i’de ever heard of the Church of Latter Day Saints, i replied “The Mormons? Oh yes i’ve heard of you, y’know, always thought it was spelt with one too many M’s”…. Queue two puzzled looks! 🙄
They then asked what i knew about their church and i said ” Well, i heard about your founder setting up the church after recieving 8 more commandments from God on solid gold tablets” and they said yes, so i replied “Now, i understand there are 8 empty spaces on the high altar in Salt Lake City for them but no-one knows where they are – that suggests that either Mr Smith was telling porkies or you’ve a thief on your books…”

They walked away.

I’m a bad person it seems!

Jesus Christ, I’m not reading all that shit.

My Grandad was a proper ordained godbotherer, had a collar and all that stuff. When the JW’s turned up at his house he’d gaily invite them in and then spend the next few hours trying to convert them… god bless the crazy old fool.

I’m sorry I’ve not read the entire thread but we get various pairs of visitors occasionally and to be honest I’d rather a knock from them than the likes of Talk Talk or Eon or whoever. Without fail they are polite and pleasant and when I say “I really won’t read it” when they try to hand me the booklet they don’t take offense or walk off or say something rude/pushy, and generally we then just have a nice chat and pass the time of day.
Where’s the problem?

I have lots of religious friends from various denominations – I and they are happy to chat about their beliefs and my lack of. It is a respect thing, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not going to slag them off for having conflicting beliefs to mine – they are all still lovely people, regardless of whay they believe in.
And at the moment, when my o/h is going through some very scary health problems, when a friend say “I’ll pray for you” I don’t say “Thanks but no thanks” – I tell them that’s nice of them and whatever good vibes they send our way are much appreciated.
I really don’t see the need to be rude to people who come knocking.

That said, I would be interested to know the bottom line on girl on girl action. Just out of interest, you understand…

Surely there is absolutely nothing wrong with two people of the same sex who love each other?

FWIW most folks that I know in church don’t think that there is anything wrong with it but adding the caveat that most folks that I know are also a bit older and struggle as much with the biases that they grew up with as with the bias of the church.

As I understand there are basically three views that the western Christian church takes:

1. It is specifically prohibited in the Bible therefore is wrong full stop.
2. It is specifically prohibited etc. but in becoming a Christian (whatever that means) you will stop being homosexual
3. It may be specifically prohibited but there are lots of things that we have to reinterpret in a modern context (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/) and this is one of them. If it seems unreasonable to you that a loving God wouldn’t accept a loving relationship of either kind then it will seem equally unreasonable to most church goers so that is something that has to be understood. This is a change that is happening albeit slower than elsewhere in society.

Unfortunately the folks in groups 1 and 2 are the most vocal and the ones you hear about. Group 3 includes most caring church goers and even Rowan Williams, now the archbishop, was promoting that view in major newspapers before he became archbishop.

I realise that there is lots of stuff there for folks to chomp on now but I just wanted to put forward the point that the vocal view isn’t always the majority view and it is painful to see friends struggling with their sexuality partly because of the church they grew up in 🙁

Can we have summary please?

Extra marks for it as a haiku

Although they appear to be traditionally figures of fun, and sent to allow us to take the piss, all the ‘doorstep godbotherers’ are actually people too, with feelings, with hopes, desires, preferences, likes and dislikes.

I met a young man, just a little older than my son who looked like he had simply had enough, standing on the corner of my street. He was a long way from home, and you could tell. You lose nothing, nothing at all by being polite, pleasant and friendly to people like him.

Just saying…

Nicely put, Crikey.

They wonder why I get annoyed when they’re basically telling me (in such a nice way note, Elf) that I am evil and will burn forever for loving someone.

Yeah I see yer point, and that’s not something that would happen to me, so I haddunt actually thought about it.

I do know Christians who are perfectly happy for folk to be whatever sexuality they are, and welcome all people equally. I think religion has to change to this way of thinking if it is to survive really. I try to consider just why homosexuality would be considered ‘sinful’, and I spose maybe in times when life expectancy was low, wars killed many men, etc, that there would be more pressure for people to be heterosexual in order to perpetuate society, but we’re no longer living in such times. If in fact we ever truly did. I dunno. I do try to understand why religious requirements and rules are the way they are, and consider rational explanations.

Fr’example; pork is Haram is Islam. Now, back in the times when the faith was being formed, maybe it just weren’t healthy to cultivate pigs in such an environment as people lived in. Maybe the meat just weren’t good to eat. Definitely a logical explanation to that one though. And I can understand the alcohol thing; definitely not a good idea in a hot climate, and it was seen as something that clouds the mind and detracts from worship. And sober people are probbly calmer and easier to control.

I am a great disappointment to me father. I’m sorry, I just like eating bacon sarnies and having a beer! I know, I’m an abject failure (hangs head in shame)…

I definitely coon’t be Jewish. No shellfish you see. And I absolutely love prawns (in fact just eaten some).

Religion simply has to change, evolve even, to accommodate how we’ve adapted and changed, if it is to survive at all.

I might not have much time for others’ beliefs, but I’ve always got time for other people.

Elfin, the pork and shellfish thing most probably came up because of the climate the religions evolved in (hah!).
Shellfish goes off in minutes in hot weather and pork isn’t far behind.
Hard to tell hungry people “Don’t eat that, it’ll make you ill”, far easier to say “God forbids you to eat that”.

Although they appear to be traditionally figures of fun, and sent to allow us to take the piss, all the ‘doorstep godbotherers’ are actually people too, with feelings, with hopes, desires, preferences, likes and dislikes.

Agreed, bearing in mind: so do I. I have “feelings, with hopes, desires, preferences, likes and dislikes” and have absolutely no problem with them living their lives and being happy. They seem to have a problem with others like me though. 😕

I’d rather they not be upset. Easy done: don’t come and knock on my door with your prejudices. Come and have a chat and not blanche when I ask if my husband can join in. 😀

Elfin, the pork and shellfish thing most probably came up because of the climate the religions evolved in

Erm, that’s sort of what I sed….

I have “feelings, with hopes, desires, preferences, likes and dislikes” and have absolutely no problem with them living their lives and being happy. They seem to have a problem with others like me though.

It’s a very good point. You have no desire to upset or offend them, and by the same token, they should have equal respect for you.

But only through dialogue can people gain understanding of others. That there are increasing numbers of people of all sorts of religions accepting that people should be free and equal in terms of their individual sexuality, shows that religion does in fact have the capacity to evolve, and it’s up to it’s members to bring about further change and adaptation.

There’s a Lesbian bishop in Sweden. I’d say as long as Emsz and Mrs Emsz have something from IKEA, they should be ok. 😀

I fully agree Adam, I just don’t accept that its okay to be unpleasant to these people because they believe different stuff.
Homophobic people need to learn that their fears are misplaced, and I (from a chubby northern straight perspective) think that the best way to do that is to show friendliness and respect and just straightforward general good peopleness to them.

I appreciate I’m simplifying things, but I think its hard to go wrong by being pleasant.

They seem to have a problem with others like me though.

Oh you could have some fun with them though..invite them in.

Homophobic people need to learn that their fears are misplaced, and I (from a chubby northern straight perspective) think that the best way to do that is to show friendliness and respect and just straightforward general good peopleness to them.

in general you are correct but its a bit like arguing racism would stop if immigrants were just bit nicer to racists . In this case they have a book which makes them hate nothing will counter this

nothing will counter this….

I think that’s a very disappointing view. I choose to think that change is possible, and that the way that change begins is at a personal level. Person to person is the best way to address exactly this kind of thing, and begin to change peoples views.

Plant the seeds of doubt, challenge the ideas, open peoples minds instead of closing them.
Give them biscuits too.

Give them biscuits too

they’d love these

or if it’s a warm day

that’s sure to get a good response from the homophobes.

Religion simply has to change, evolve even, to accommodate how we’ve adapted and changed, if it is to survive at all.

on the food perspective I’d say you’re right, we have fridges now and soap and stuff, pigs and prawns do not equal uncertain death.

The problem for the devout is that man on man loving (and oh so many other things) is (allegedly) an offence to god/the big man/governing entity. “Lets change all that because those are unpopular views in our current society” that’s not going to sit well with the hardcore. You’re either ignoring what your chosen deity commanded undermining your religion and leaving yourself open to all sorts of criticism or you’re just paying lip service and holding on to those nasty values inside your withered dessicated little soul.
Those who genuinely can pick and choose what bits they like from their religion I’d ask them to look at that, are really following X religion? Really? Why not drop the title, distance yourself from it and follow your own code/beliefs. I’ve nowt against people believing what they want, my beef is with organised religions who gang up, get themselves a hierarchy (I’m considerably holier than yow) then press their beliefs on everyone else, including and especially the “you’re all sinners and are going to suffer for it in the afterlife” comments.

Ok, I’ve talked to enough people on the street to know that talking about specific sins is a red herring. People will argue for hours about getting drunk and their right to drink for example, but even if you convince them biblicaly that getting drunk is against the will of God, are they any closer to bending the knee and confessing they are a sinner? a lot more would have to change in their lives than staying sober.

The bible does clearly say that God is not pleased with homosexual sex, as He is also not pleased with those who fornicate (put it about). Am I homophobic? no, I respect and will befriend someone regardless of their sexuality. Would I force biblical living upon someone who does not believe? no. Would I advise a genuine seeker of God about what is morally right or wrong? Yes. I would be on dodgy ground if I changed the bibles teachings to make life easier for myself or anyone else.

[/quote]The bible does clearly say that God is not pleased with homosexual sex, as He is also not pleased with those who fornicate (put it about). Am I homophobic? no, I respect and will befriend someone regardless of their sexuality. Would I force biblical living upon someone who does not believe? no. Would I advise a genuine seeker of God about what is morally right or wrong?

So you are homophobic, but in a nice way. I think you should teach God about morals rather than trying to tell gay people they are sinners.

about what is morally right or wrong? Yes

Morally right according to a book. I would no more take advice about morals from the bible than I would from Jordans autobiography.

rather than trying to tell gay people they are sinners.

I don’t know how to be any more clear than I have already been. I don’t single homosexuals out, ‘all have sinned’ as I have already said, we all come short on Gods standard. We all need to repent regardless of our sexuality. And for that reason I treat all people equally. Homosexuals are not in ‘greater need’ of salvation than anyone else.

And for that reason I treat all people equally. Homosexuals are not in ‘greater need’ of salvation than anyone else.

I get that part. But you still think homosexuality is a sin. That makes you homophobic. The good book is wrong.

getting drunk is against the will of God

Then why did he give us beer?

I respect and will befriend someone regardless of their sexuality.
…
The bible does clearly say that God is not pleased with homosexual sex
…
Would I advise a genuine seeker of God about what is morally right or wrong? Yes.

Would you advise all your gay friends that they were being immoral, then?

It’s really not a difficult question, but it’s really not one with wiggle room either. Either you believe that homosexuality is wrong or you don’t. Which is it?

You’ve said yourself that homosexuality makes god “not best pleased” and you’re a self-confessed evangelist. So either you preach that homosexuality is bad, or you cherry-pick the bits of your religion that you want to talk to about. Or you disagree with the Bible, of course, but that’s not the impression you’re giving.

People like Adam and his husband are an affront to God and a crime against nature, aren’t they.

Cougar, I wouldn’t strike up a conversation about homosexual sex being sinful, no. In fact this thread proves that its not Christians that bring the subject up. You have had to corner me to get my thoughts because its really not on my agenda to preach about any specific sin. Its enough to say that we all sin, and that’s why we need salvation.

If you ask me what the bible says about any particular subject, I’ll tell you what it says, but that’s hardly ramming it down your throat is it?

To be homophobic would surely mean I show a fear of, or a dislike to homosexuals, which I don’t, I treat them equally. As already said the bible also says that sex outside of marriage is wrong too, do I alienate myself from everyone who does? I would lead a pretty lonely life if I did, and I wouldn’t have many people to share the gospel with either. Who did Jesus speak to and choose to spend his time with?

You have had to corner me to get my thoughts because its really not on my agenda

I’ve had to corner you to get your thoughts because you’ve been evasive for a day and a half ever since I first asked, and still haven’t answered. ‘Treating homosexuals like all the other sinners’ doesn’t really get to the nub of the matter I’m afraid. I’m not interested in what the bible says, I’m interested in what you think. What is your view on homosexuality?

For instance, are you in favour of gay marriage? Equal rights for gay partnerships? Do you think it’s ok to be gay so long as you don’t have sex? Do you think people can be cured of gayness? Is it the work of the devil?

Who did Jesus speak to and choose to spend his time with?

Twelve male friends and a prostitute, if memory serves.

this thread proves that its not Christians that bring the subject up

I appreciate the futility in discussing concepts like “proof” with a theist, but a single conversation doesn’t “prove” anything, it’s just a single example.

But anyway. I can’t think why Christians wouldn’t want to bring up subjects that might make them look like prejudiced bigots, can you?

Cougar – To be fair to PhilAmon, he hasn’t shown the slightest sign of being a homophobe. I’d imagine one or two of my friends (not Christian, just a tad conservative), who are outwardly very friendly to my other gay pals harbour some unease with homosexuality. Lets not go accusing people of being guilty of thought crimes, after all it is how you treat other people that is important.

I think PhilAmon is being very diplomatic I do admire him for being prepared to enter into this debate totally outnumbered and out gunned.

But I think he is using diplomacy to side step the question.

So can I ask it in a different way

Do you think that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven does AdamW have to admit he is wrong and say he is sorry about his behaviour ?

Sorry AdamW for making it personal but we have been reminded that evangelists are real people with feelings so I think its only fair to remind them that their views can upset real people with feelings too.

Also you still have not answered my question

“Why does god want us to praise him ?”

To be homophobic would surely mean I show a fear of, or a dislike to homosexuals, which I don’t, I treat them equally

If you describe yourself as following religion X the heads of religion X (as is their want) stand up and says “gays/coveters of neighbours arses/bacon sandwich preparation staff/etc are nasty people and I speak for several thousand/million of my flock”.

You are enabling these spokespersons to say shit like that.

If your preacher makes comments about certain lifestyles being an affront to your god do you stand up and say “actually I think that kind of thing is OK so can I opt out of that one?” or do you say “amen” but have your fingers crossed?

I’m trying not to single you or your religion out for this but you are the one saying “yes the good book says it’s wrong but I don’t really mind either way”. You know what the party line is and you’re still a member.

I should be clarify.

I’m not singling out PhilAmon here, and I too applaud him for stepping up to redress the balance. But if you’re an evangelist, you don’t get to only talk exclusively to people who don’t talk back. Sorry.

From his comments on here, it would appear that he holds prejudiced views either because a book has told him to, or because a book has told him it’s ok to. He might not, of course, but in a couple of pages of “diplomacy” he’s not denied it yet. Seems it’d be a simple thing to clear up, to me.

Isn’t evangelism pretty much wholly about challenging inappropriate beliefs and behaviour, after all?

yes it like Singlespeeding but choosing to use gears and being clean shaven

it is actually called an abomination and not just a sin
what else is called an abomination inthe book?

C’mon fellas, I’m about the least tolerant to the religious you will find on here but you are being a bit mean-spirited. You are performing acrobatics to try and out Phil as a disgusting homophobe. He has said he isnt so leave it at that please.

“gays/coveters of neighbours arses/bacon sandwich preparation staff/etc are nasty people and I speak for several thousand/million of my flock”.

But they don’t. Yes, some are more extreme but the problem of homosexuality in the church isn’t an issue of how to keep people out but rather how to accept people in. The noisy folks such as WBC get the press though

you are the one saying “yes the good book says it’s wrong but I don’t really mind either way”

I don’t think that’s quite what he said. He said that the book says it’s wrong, just like all the other sins, he said that he doesn’t speak out about it for fear of alienation. I may have missed it, but I don’t recall him expressing a personal opinion at all as to whether he ‘minds’ or not.

Which, I think, is an important distinction. Because treating everyone equally is laudable, but it’s hypocritical if you’re doing it whilst secretly stood there thinking “yes, but you’re going to hell anyway unless you repent your sinful ways” and are just too chickenshit to say anything.

And if you don’t really think that, are you sure you’ve got the right religion for you there?

C’mon fellas, I’m about the least tolerant to the religious you will find on here but you are being a bit mean-spirited. You are performing acrobatics to try and out Phil as a disgusting homophobe. He has said he isnt so leave it at that please.

Totally totally wrong, I want him to see his religion for the disgusting homophobic institution that it is and that’s very different.

I don’t think that’s quite what he said.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying not to be too aggressive 🙂

And if you don’t really think that, are you sure you’ve got the right religion for you there?

Buts that never been a problem has it. The verbal dexterity and cynical hypocrisy used by many believers to only accept the “nice” bits is well known. If that fails you can always fall back on the old “its a metaphor” line.