[Closed] Do you jump red lights...?

I treat jumping red lights like the "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" observation.

This thread is useless without CFH and TJ.

There are no traffic lights on my commute, which might generate a similarly philosophical point. If you are prevented from doing wrong does that make you a good person?

Nope. I enjoy relaxing.

I'm never going anywhere in such a hurry that I have to.

no, I treat them as a breather

If it's safe to do so, e.g. LH turn or empty Pelican Crossing, then yes.

Very rarely, if I do its probably late at night with not much traffic around.

No, same as when i'm in a car I don't jump them.

Its a problem I don't encounter as I ride everywhere on the pavement! 😀

I set off before they go green, but when other at the junction have turned red. So I would only jump if I know the light sequence very well

Ive never jumped a red light, have you seen how high up they are? If you do then you should be trying out for Team GB, not going to a desk job...

It is important to cyclists that we get the full respect of drivers as fellow road users, with just as much right to be riding down the street as they have. The biggest danger facing cyclists is when drivers get annoyed if we slow them down, or drive as though we’re simply not there. Developing a relationship of mutual respect between drivers and cyclists is the most important thing we can do to improve cyclists’ safety, and to reduce the number of injuries and fatalities on the streets. And cyclists will find it much harder to earn that respect if they visibly flout the law every time they reach a red light.

This kind of argument always sounds like a small child terrified of his father because he keeps hitting him. The kid tries really hard not to antagonise his father but his father hits him anyway, even for stuff his brother did. His brother gets hit as well but doesn't seem to care and does bad stuff anyway.

What the poor terrified child doesn't realise is that he is a red headed step child and his father is always going to hate him no matter what. His brother realised this a while ago so just does whatever he wants, he's going to get hit anyway.

[i]And cyclists will find it much harder to earn that respect if they visibly [b]flout the law [u]every time[/u][/b] they reach a red light.[/i]

Do you think there is actually [i]anyone[/i] who does this? I don't think they would live long!

I tend to filter left when there's nowt about but then again I do ride around a small town and not a large city.

Stopping at traffic lights messes up my averages and can mean do or die when I comes to strava... 😉

Not on the bike but I do when I'm driving as I see lots of people on bikes do it so it must be okay.

Do you think there is actually anyone who does this? I don't think they would live long!

Encountered a guy this morning who jumped 4 consecutive sets of lights.... to be fair, I think it was a much to do with being completely unable to get in/out of his pedals as it was about just 'being the fastest'......

What about pedestrians? Anything other than crossing on the green man or zebras only is asking for trouble, surely. They should have insurance...

Never. Why piss off drivers any more just to cut a few seconds from my journey? I'm a road user, not a warrior.

Yes on a bike and yes in a car at 4:30am when I'm the only person awake!
I'm a terrible person and I'm going to hell.

Mind you, I recently stayed right on the south circular in London, and that was never quiet. I'd not be doing it there!

Only the ones at the crossroads next to my house that have a sensor to detect waiting vehicles. The sensor obviously doesn't think a bike is a vehicle, as it never changes unless there is a car in front of me.

I think he's right.
IMO if we want the situation on the roads to change we need to get away from the "them and us" thing that currently persists. Flouting the rules that everybody else sticks to only reinforces it- makes it easier for people sat in their cars to think "they're not playing the game like we are, so why should I give a monkeys about them?"

You might argue that it doesn't matter what these people think, sat in their metal boxes clogging up the roads, so why should you pander to them by sticking to apparently pointless rules when you could just as easily not, with nobody getting hurt or losing out.

I suppose it comes down to what's been covered on the CM thread- whether you think alienating people by showing you don't give a toss (and anyway you're so much cleverer and free-spirited than them) is a good way to positively influence their behaviour and bring them on-side or not.

Only time I've ever jumped a red is at automatic lights where they can't detect a bike.

I even stop at a set on my commute on a very quiet road (boat ramp one side, pub car park the other), which has an uncontrolled bridleway crossing the road right next to them!

[img] [/img]

Mainly I do this because I do think it is important for us to be seen to obey they highway code. It gives the anti-cyclist brigade one less stick to beat us with (and means I can stay seated on my high horse).

The other week I was stopped at them when two old boys (i.e. late 60s) on equally creaky tourers came past me and went straight through on red with barely a glance.

As they went through one of them looked guiltily back at me and cheerfully called out [i]"I admire your respect for the law young man"[/i] 😀

yes in a car at 4:30am when I'm the only person awake!

At a notorious crossroads round here somebody thought similar and found they were wrong...

Only the ones at the crossroads next to my house that have a sensor to detect waiting vehicles. The sensor obviously doesn't think a bike is a vehicle, as it never changes unless there is a car in front of me.

We have a few of these where all lanes are red until a car comes along during night time hours.

If I am out at these times I can either wait for a car to come along and activate the lights to green or go through on the red.

I did wait once to see how long it would take for a car to arrive but gave up after 20 minutes and went through.

No traffic lights on my commute, and none on my regular road ride routes except those that involve junctions with busy major A roads.

Must be a townie thing......

Only the ones at the crossroads next to my house that have a sensor to detect waiting vehicles. The sensor obviously doesn't think a bike is a vehicle, as it never changes unless there is a car in front of me.

This is the ony time I will go through and treat it as a give way. Happens a lot in my town, but I wait for a bit to see if any vehicles are approaching from behind me, and if they are, I wil wait for them to activate the sensors.

Had some guy on a Road Bike come straight through a Red last night and I could have easily T Boned him if I was'nt paying attention.

Incidentally, the point should be made that I see motorists jump the lights every single day.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing a [i]"slightly red"[/i] or [i]"just turned red"[/i].

Amber means [i]"stop (unless you are so close that you can't do so safely)"[/i], it doesn't mean "[i]floor it before it turns red"[/i].

An [i]"ambler gambler"[/i] is breaking exactly the same law as someone cruising through a red.

Like others I'll "jump" red lights when they don't detect bikes - though I'd argue that in such a case I'm not breaking the law as the lights are faulty. A common problem for me as the ones which are at the only access point to where I live keep getting readjusted so they don't detect bikes - I think I've contacted the council about 10 times now to get them fixed. I do know the phases on these lights and will only go when my phase hasn't got its turn and one of the other side turn phases is green, giving way to any traffic which has a green light (not a big problem, as the lights have too many phases anyway).

I also jump roadworks lights if it's possible to ride through the cones and so not obstruct the traffic which has a green light - so not breaking the spirit of the law.

Incidentally, the point should be made that I see motorists jump the lights every single day.

Indeed - as I've commented to people, I see far more cars jumping red lights than I do bikes.

No wouldn't do it in a car so why should it be okay to on a bike.

This is the ony time I will go through and treat it as a give way. Happens a lot in my town, but I wait for a bit to see if any vehicles are approaching from behind me, and if they are, I wil wait for them to activate the sensors.

Same here. I've found that some cars won't get close enough to activate the sensors (are they in the road?). I then have to more beyond the stop line and gesture for the car to move up otherwise we'll all be sat there on red for evermore.

So, in summary, as the red lights have been implemented in a way which ignores my presence on the road the only option is to ignore them. When I say "ignore" I mean proceed with cation obviously.

It's not as if Car drivers are perfect, every day, riding to work, I see drivers jump lights, speed, chat on the phone, block cycle lanes, park illegally.

I've found that some cars won't get close enough to activate the sensors (are they in the road?)

AFAIK some automatic lights use induction coils in the road - so you might be okay on a proper steel bike 😉 - others rely on optical sensors spotting something vehicle shaped - so you might be okay if you are as fat as a car!

flippinheckler - Member
No wouldn't do it in a car so why should it be okay to on a bike.

I wouldn't go down a bus lane in my car, but regularly do on my bike. And I go through the red light that controls the bus lane.

It's not as if Car drivers are perfect, every day, riding to work, I see drivers jump lights, speed, chat on the phone, block cycle lanes, park illegally.

So what? Are they setting some sort of bar for how you think you should behave?

So what?

So it is a very hypocritical stick that they beat us with.

But that's okay.

Cos they pay road tax... 😉

Just strikes me as an "some people are eejits* so it's OK for me to be an eejit too" argument.

*Even though most people aren't.

So it is a very hypocritical stick that the beat us with.

Groundhog day.

Does STW have automatic OP generators simply to keep the post counts up for the advertisers?

[i]Just strikes me as an "some people are eejits* so it's OK for me to be an eejit too" argument.[/i]

I see it as more of a "People in glass houses.." statement.

I waited for a minute at some last night, nothing changed so I went through. Did god kill a kitten as a result?

if it's safe to go through it I do, obviously zooming across a busy junction when the light has been red for several seconds is plain stupid.

AFAIK some automatic lights use induction coils in the road - so you might be okay on a proper steel bike - others rely on optical sensors spotting something vehicle shaped - so you might be okay if you are as fat as a car!

Have you tried contacting the council to complain that the traffic lights are faulty? If they don't detect a bicycle and won't give you a phase then that is the case and they are legally obliged to fix them. They certainly have adjusted the sensitivity of ones with induction coils when I've complained (though as mentioned above they do keep reverting back - my suspicion is that the lower sensitivity is actually the default setting they revert back to after a power outage). If they're using an optical sensor to detect cars they might have to do something more radical though!

No need for a steel bike BTW - I only own one of those and it gets ridden very rarely. Alu frames will set off induction sensors just fine if they're calibrated correctly. Carbon doesn't, but then an alu rim works even better than an alu frame, being closer to the road surface. Can't ever trip them on my carbon bike with carbon wheels, but then I accept the lights will always be faulty when riding that bike 😉

I RLJ in both my car and on my bike. I just do it in slightly different ways.

The way I do it in the car is far more dangerous although I doubt anyone would even notice I was doing it.

Sometimes ..more likely to do it in a car than on a bike TBH

I treat jumping red lights like the "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" observation.

this sounds familiar...

conversely, there's at least 1 traffic light on my commute home that i will stop for at Green (i pull into a little side street), so that i can position myself nicely while the light is on red, and then proceed when the light turns green again.

it's a long junction, and uphill. it's a bit scary if i've gone through green, and the lights change when i'm halfway across.

I've yet to see a red light here, so couldn't jump one even if I wanted to..

[img] [/img]

I waited for a minute at some last night, nothing changed so I went through.

A whole minute? Well I don't think anyone can question your patience 😀

No need for a steel bike BTW - I only own one of those and it gets ridden very rarely

Shame. Not fit enough to ride a proper bike? 😉

always stop, gives me the opportunity to show off my amazeballs trackstanding skills...

seriously though, if we expect to be recognised by motorists as having equal rights on the roads (which we do) we need to be seen to be observing the rules of the road. Don't give them the ammunition and they'll have nothing to throw at us.

Shame. Not fit enough to ride a proper bike?

Well it is a fixie, and the terrain round here (or more accurately the hill I live at the top of) doesn't make that the most suitable bike most of the time. Not really sure why I'm worried about the suitability of my transport choice though, given I spend more time on a uni than a bike nowadays!

He doesn't give a toss about the bike going through at red at 2mins 5secs (roughly), but quite happy to shake his head and note number plates at the cars.......he must be a hoot to be in the pub with "that is your third pint, are you going to operate any heavy machinery?".

Everyone has a choice, if cyclists want to flout the laws of the road then let them do it, no amount of debating will stop it, and if they get killed well then there is all the more road space for the rest of us. Yes everyone should be respectful of each other, but it doesn't matter whether people are behind a steering wheel or handlebars, there are plenty of dicks out there.

If I see a light changing, I just shut my eyes, floor it and start shouting out the window "I AM THE KNIGHT RIDER!!!!"

he must be a hoot to be in the pub with "that is your third pint, are you going to operate any heavy machinery?"

That's right - attack someone who is actively trying to do what he can about conditions on our roads, rather than just moaning about it on a forum during their coffee break. 🙄

if they get killed well then there is all the more road space for the rest of us.

Good point, well made 🙄

if we expect to be recognised by motorists as having equal rights on the roads (which we do) we need to be seen to be observing the rules of the road. Don't give them the ammunition and they'll have nothing to throw at us.

or perhaps motorists need to realise that , just like car drivers, some cyclists break the law but that is no reason to not treat them with the respect they need/deserve as vulnerable road users,

Good luck with that.

I've tried at various times to point out to such people that 99% of motorists (including me) will have broken the highway code (and the law) at least once on their journey.

Apparently [i]that's different[/i]. Usually due to something about "road tax", outdated laws, nitpicking, revenue generation or "war on the motorist".

if we expect to be recognised by motorists as having equal rights on the roads (which we do) we need to be seen to be observing the rules of the road. Don't give them the ammunition and they'll have nothing to throw at us.

I'm quite tired of seeing this argument. I don't break any rules, yet somehow i can't argue for better conditions because someone i've never met is acting like a dick on a bike somewhere?!

That's right - attack someone who is actively trying to do what he can about conditions on our roads, rather than just moaning about it on a forum during their coffee break.

Not attacking "him" for whatever he is trying to achieve, just pointing out that if you're going to go to the extent of sitting editing a video to point out peoples flouncing of laws, at least have the decency to make it a balanced argument.

After watching another of his video's, while I agree that the driving shown is appalling, he somehow waters down his own argument by indicating wht cyclists don't or are not expected to do/have as reasons not to drive too close. The overriding argument really is that the UK never invested in a cycle centric infrastructure making it safer for cyclists by getting them as far away from cars and trucks as possible - for examples look at San Francisco and Portland, even Edinburgh has marked paths (albeit not perfect) to navigate the city.

Good luck with that.

what do you think STW is if not training for arguing with irrational fools 😉

A very well written piece...

The argument about gaining respect etc, by obeying the rules is well rehearsed... For me, this was one of the most important bits:

Similarly, Cohen — quite rightly — saying that cyclists “are a third thing, a distinct mode of transportation, requiring different practices and different rules”. I wrote as much myself, in my unified theory of New York biking. But that theory was based on the idea that the tragedy of New York cycling is that everybody — pedestrians, drivers, and cyclists — [b]treat cyclists too much like pedestrians[/b]. Cohen, by contrast, says that “most of the resentment of rule-breaking riders like me, I suspect, derives from a false analogy: conceiving of bicycles as akin to cars”. I wish that New Yorkers would conceive of bicycles as akin to cars: pedestrians would look first before stepping out in front of us; cars would respect our right to be on the road; and fellow cyclists wouldn’t endanger everybody by riding the wrong way down the street.

I too want cyclists to be recognised as a component of the traffic - not as an adjunct to a pedestrian activity. We need to be seen as part of the traffic flow, and for other drivers behaviour, and more importantly, for road designers to incorporate our needs.

To me, this is the most annoying sign to be seen...
[img] [/img]
This sign demotes cyclists from road users to pedestrians with an accompaniement

It demonstrates planners / designers utter disregard for cyclists as a mode of transport. Do we ask car drivers to get out an push their cars in to parking bays??? Because that is the equivalent 🙄

Do you jump red lights...?

Yes

what do you think STW is if not training for arguing with irrational fools

How ironic that you yourself make such a statement.

I'm quite tired of seeing this argument. I don't break any rules, yet somehow i can't argue for better conditions because someone i've never met is acting like a dick on a bike somewhere?!

But surely that's the way of the world? To judge the many for the actions of the few?

Anyone who says they have never jumped a red light is either lying or has never ever ridden a bike in a large town or city.

he somehow waters down his own argument by indicating wht cyclists don't or are not expected to do/have as reasons not to drive too close

Are you watching the same guy? CycleGaz? Who runs http://www.sillycyclists.co.uk/ which is solely dedicated to presenting videos of cyclists with terrible roadcraft as an example of what not to do.

I think he has a fair bit of balance. This particular video was just made as a reply to the "Cyclists Always Jump Red" charge.

To me, this is the most annoying sign to be seen...

I always take that sign as an admission by the road planner that he's rubbish at his job.

Mike you may disagree with me and miss the point of my demonstration of how insulting and antagonising does not help you win arguments with folks if you wish but everyone else got it. It was not personal and I am happy to apologise if you took it as such.

However it is a step further, and granted belittling and insulting folk seems to come as naturally to you as breathing [ so may bearing grudges???] , to suggest I am irrational because I disagree with you

PS the wink icon means it was a joke that probably did not deserve such deep analysis either laugh, chuckle , smile or ignore

i assume that sign means its time for a break in the nations fantastic cyclepaths and that for a short time only the cyclists should get off their bike and walk due to a narrow pavement.

if i'm on the road then it doesn't apply to me 😈

I dont jump lights - getting stopped at reds prevents me getting too serious about Strava results (thats my excuse and I'm sticking with it! 🙂 ). In response to the 'Cyclists Dismount' sign - there is one either side of a canal-side pub on my route. If I am passing during opening hours I ALWAYS dismount, If earlier/ later than opening hours I ride past slowly. a lot of these cycling specific signs don't make allowance for cyclist having common sense.

I'm quite tired of seeing this argument. I don't break any rules, yet somehow i can't argue for better conditions because someone i've never met is acting like a dick on a bike somewhere?!

I'm not saying you can't argue for better road conditions for cyclists, merely trying to get across that its difficult to be heard when large numbers of cyclists are disregarding the rules.

good for you for obeying the lights but from what I see on a daily basis we're in the minority.

[img] [/img]

I always take that sign as an admission by the road planner that he's rubbish at his job.

Yep - it basically means "F*** it, I give up".

I particularly liked the sign at Newcastle Quayside the other day. [i]"NCN 72 Cycle Route Closed For Olympic Event - Follow Diversion"[/i] with the arrow taped over because they hadn't actually bothered to provide the diversion. What exactly was I supposed to do there?

(My answer: ignore it and cycle up the obviously empty quayside where no event was really taking place)

I struggle with long sentences, but for the record, no I don't.
regardless of whether it's safe or not, I think it's massively anti-social and gives other road users a big reason to hate us which causes problems when you're sharing the road with them.

I ride on a National cycleway to work, which has Cyclists Dismount signs on it! Not that anyone does...

I treat them the same on my bike as I do in my car. Stop unless they are defective.

I do dismount and walk the bike across the pedestrian crossing at a cross roads then remount and carry on from the other side. Seems a legal way of keeping going?

There's an olympic event in Newcastle?

For me it's about perception, who people identify with and how they respond to what they do.

I'd like to see a lot more people reconsider the role of the car in their lives and society in general, which I reckon/hope would lead to things like: People in cars not seeing cyclists as annoying irrelevancies, less school runs being done in virtually empty 4X4s, town centres being dominated by people instead of cars, etc etc.

IMO the views of 'the middle' are key to this. Most folk are more-or-less decent, reasonable people, and I think they're more likely to consider their own behaviour in light of the behaviour of other people that they identify with and have some sort of respect for.

So they're more likely to wonder if they should give cycling to work a go after chatting to Dave down the corridor who bikes to work every day and seems like a pretty normal bloke, and maybe more likely to wait a few seconds extra for that cyclist to pass the junction before pulling out when they're on their way home.

I think they're less likely to identify with those crusties on tall bikes, or those twunts in tights who blow through the lights every day while everybody else waits, or that Critical Mass lot who made a point of trying to ride down that road that they knew they couldn't because the Olympics is on, FFS. Cyclists? To$$ers.

Anyway, that's [i]part [/i]of my take on the whole 'road manners' vs 'I'll do what I like cos I can, and anyway everybody else does it' thing. Hopelessly naive maybe...

So a lot of you run red lights do you also do the same on zebra crossings when someone is crossing?

Yes and no. There's only one set off lights on the way commute and like others have said they don't always detect a cyclist. So i either wait or jump them.

Having said that, on one occasion i did stop at a red light a driver just piled straight into back of me. He claimed he didn't know what i was doing and just carried on through a red light. So stunned was i at his stupidity, i forgot to give him back his wing mirror that i liberated from his car...

There was a thread earlier on in the week that quoted Bella Bathurst, that pretty much summed up my feelings on bikes and road law. Something along the lines of roads laws ignoring the cyclist, so cyclists felt they had no choice but to ignore the rules.

There's an olympic event in Newcastle?

Either that or someone has started selling shiny tracksuits to immigrants and tourists as they get off the plane. 😀

(We have [url= http://www.london2012.com/venue/st-james-park/ ]the football[/url] plus [url= http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/leisure-libraries-and-tourism/tourism-and-travel/olympic-events-newcastle ]assorted "halo" events[/url])

Hence the big rings on the Tyne Bridge in [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/in-praise-of-sustrans-and-traffic-free-cycle-paths-photos ]my piccy the other day[/url]:
[img] [/img]

I don't really ride anywhere with lights but on the rare occasion that I do, if I can see that the road is definitely clear from all directions I'll go through it. If I can see someone about to cross a zebra but I know I'll be across way before they get to my side I'll go over it. I probably wouldn't if there was a risk of points/a fine like there is with a car..